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Old 09-05-2012, 10:05 PM   #301
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Would be amazing if these spy shots are really of the Impreza Diesel that Subaru said they're holding off on 3/4 years ago. I think the time is right especially with the president upping the CAFE mpg min.

That would be awesome.
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Old 09-05-2012, 10:11 PM   #302
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Would be amazing if these spy shots are really of the Impreza Diesel that Subaru said they're holding off on 3/4 years ago. I think the time is right especially with the president upping the CAFE mpg min.

That would be awesome.
I think the WRX rims and quad tip exhaust pretty much put the theory of a diesel Impreza mule to bed.
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:02 AM   #303
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I think the context was that if Subaru had to R&D BRZ entirely on their own, they wouldn't have R&D budget left for WRX/STI, in response to people wondering why Subaru didn't go it alone on the RWD coupe. If Subaru had to choose between developing a BRZ or continuing WRX/STI, they're going to choose WRX/STI. Having Toyota as a partner on the RWD coupe allowed them to do both things.

Maybe we're saying the same thing here.
I don't know. I got the feeling that the influx of money and certain technologies from Toyota had a lot to do with the next design for the WRX/STI, and that is what was meant by the Subaru executive. Although total speculation on my part, I think the divergence from the Impreza might have been influenced by the BRZ R&D. At least I hope so.

I do agree, like has been said, Toyota didn't have the facilities and expertise available, and Subaru didn't have the desire or money, to develop a BRZ on their own. From what I have read, I don't think there was any thought by Subaru of doing a RWD vehicle until Toyota approached them...the second time.
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:01 AM   #304
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Although total speculation on my part, I think the divergence from the Impreza might have been influenced by the BRZ R&D. At least I hope so.
From previous articles, the purpose of the split of the Impreza and WRX was not related to turning the WRX into a more purpose built sports car, but instead to reduce the cost of production on the Impreza.

Currently the Impreza chassis and body is designed to accomodate the performance strains of the STI and WRX which makes the base model Impreza more expensive to produce.

If they remove the WRX and STI additions the Impreza becomes cheaper to produce, less complicated and they can pass that savings onto the customer (or pad FHI's bank account with a larger profit margin).
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:27 AM   #305
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^^^good point^^^ I had not read that, but I wasn't looking for that either. I guess what they are saying is, in the long run, it would be more cost effective to develop and manufacture a totally different line than it would be to use a variant of an existing model.

Doesn't make sense to me, but I have no knowledge of such things.
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:41 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
From previous articles, the purpose of the split of the Impreza and WRX was not related to turning the WRX into a more purpose built sports car, but instead to reduce the cost of production on the Impreza.

Currently the Impreza chassis and body is designed to accomodate the performance strains of the STI and WRX which makes the base model Impreza more expensive to produce.

If they remove the WRX and STI additions the Impreza becomes cheaper to produce, less complicated and they can pass that savings onto the customer (or pad FHI's bank account with a larger profit margin).
This is what I've thought the "differentiation" comment about the new WRX/STI meant for a while. I've tried saying it a few different ways, but this was a much better effort.
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Old 09-06-2012, 12:45 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
From previous articles, the purpose of the split of the Impreza and WRX was not related to turning the WRX into a more purpose built sports car, but instead to reduce the cost of production on the Impreza.

Currently the Impreza chassis and body is designed to accomodate the performance strains of the STI and WRX which makes the base model Impreza more expensive to produce.

If they remove the WRX and STI additions the Impreza becomes cheaper to produce, less complicated and they can pass that savings onto the customer (or pad FHI's bank account with a larger profit margin).
Conversely, if true, this also means that the cost of the WRX and STI won't be subsidized by the base Impreza, and the price will go up for both. Which could be one of the reasons we're seeing a WRX mule with a 6 speed, it is to help 'sweeten the pot' and justify the price bump, makes you wonder what the STI will have to bring to the table to justify that price bump... more power, or more technical?
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Old 09-06-2012, 02:23 PM   #308
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Conversely, if true, this also means that the cost of the WRX and STI won't be subsidized by the base Impreza, and the price will go up for both. Which could be one of the reasons we're seeing a WRX mule with a 6 speed, it is to help 'sweeten the pot' and justify the price bump, makes you wonder what the STI will have to bring to the table to justify that price bump... more power, or more technical?
I have no idea what the ratio of WRX/STI sales to regular Impreza sales are, but I would bet $1 savings on each Impreza versus $1 savings on each WRX/STI would show that saving more money on the Impreza allows them to lose some margin on the WRX/STI.
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Old 09-06-2012, 03:19 PM   #309
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Conversely, if true, this also means that the cost of the WRX and STI won't be subsidized by the base Impreza, and the price will go up for both. Which could be one of the reasons we're seeing a WRX mule with a 6 speed, it is to help 'sweeten the pot' and justify the price bump, makes you wonder what the STI will have to bring to the table to justify that price bump... more power, or more technical?
I've been wondering this. I'd imagine the new 6-speed for the WRX will almost have to be the old STi trans. This would save cost, but then what would the STi come with? Going by that logic, if the WRX get a 6-speed (even if it's a different trans), one of the major selling points for the STi is now moot. Sure, a WRX might be more expensive, but many would welcome the 6th gear and pay the extra 2K or so.

Since the WRX has made such major upgrades (both in the previous gen with the 2.5L upgrade, the wide-body in 2011, and now probably a 6-speed in a WRX), what does the STi have now that separates it from the WRX. It's no longer a separate model like the old GD chassis was, now they're getting too closely related. The next STi has to have a completely different bit of equipment than the WRX to justify the 10K difference in price. Diffs, a wing, and brake calipers don't justify the price.
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Old 09-06-2012, 03:29 PM   #310
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Paddle shifters!!!!!
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Old 09-06-2012, 03:45 PM   #311
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I would think that If the WRX gets a six speed, and considering the almost certainty of a 2.0 liter (or smaller) motor, the 6 speed from the (now defunt) Legacy GT would be used.

Leaving the overly beefy, overly heavy - but ready-for-more-torque - STI six speed as "one of those STI things".
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Old 09-06-2012, 04:15 PM   #312
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I've been wondering this. I'd imagine the new 6-speed for the WRX will almost have to be the old STi trans. This would save cost, but then what would the STi come with? Going by that logic, if the WRX get a 6-speed (even if it's a different trans), one of the major selling points for the STi is now moot. Sure, a WRX might be more expensive, but many would welcome the 6th gear and pay the extra 2K or so.

Since the WRX has made such major upgrades (both in the previous gen with the 2.5L upgrade, the wide-body in 2011, and now probably a 6-speed in a WRX), what does the STi have now that separates it from the WRX. It's no longer a separate model like the old GD chassis was, now they're getting too closely related. The next STi has to have a completely different bit of equipment than the WRX to justify the 10K difference in price. Diffs, a wing, and brake calipers don't justify the price.
if they indeed have the exact same 6speed, there are still the bits farther down the driveline which will differentiate it from the wrx.

But, I bet, if the wrx gets the 2.0 DIT, the sti gets a 2.5 DIT. but then, I'd guess that if this is the case, they'll be parading a mule for that soon enough, if it hasn't already been around and just wasn't noticed.
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Old 09-06-2012, 05:04 PM   #313
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I do agree, like has been said, Toyota didn't have the facilities and expertise available, and Subaru didn't have the desire or money, to develop a BRZ on their own. From what I have read, I don't think there was any thought by Subaru of doing a RWD vehicle until Toyota approached them...the second time.

The BRZ was Subaru's idea that was taken to Toyota. They definitely had the desire, but just didn't have the money.

I think Toyota has the facilities and expertise, THEY just didn't have the desire. Then, they have their partner who does have the desire presenting them with this......bang!! Let them do the leg work.
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Old 09-06-2012, 05:06 PM   #314
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if they indeed have the exact same 6speed, there are still the bits farther down the driveline which will differentiate it from the wrx.

But, I bet, if the wrx gets the 2.0 DIT, the sti gets a 2.5 DIT. but then, I'd guess that if this is the case, they'll be parading a mule for that soon enough, if it hasn't already been around and just wasn't noticed.

I forget, but has there been anything on a 2.5 DIT? I know there is something on the 2.0 and a 1.6, I just don't remember anything on a 2.5. Could be a secret like the 2004 STi and it's 300hp 2.5L.
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Old 09-06-2012, 05:59 PM   #315
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I forget, but has there been anything on a 2.5 DIT? I know there is something on the 2.0 and a 1.6, I just don't remember anything on a 2.5. Could be a secret like the 2004 STi and it's 300hp 2.5L.
well, there is the FA 2.5 liter, and since the FB 2.0 is based on the FA 2.0, it really isn't much of a stretch (or is it) that a FB 2.5 with a turbo could be in the works?

or, how do we know that the 2.0 DIT is going to be in the wrx? I'm sure it's been mentioned by Subaru and I just didn't see it if everyone takes it as fact that the FB 2.0 T is going to be the WRX motor, but what if the wrx doesn't get the FB 2.0 T, but gets a FA 2.0 T, and the sti gets the 2.0 DIT?

Subaru is really good at keeping secrets it doesn't want to share, so I see a lot of potential engines for the sti, especially if we still don't know for sure what the wrx is going to get.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:22 PM   #316
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The BRZ was Subaru's idea that was taken to Toyota. They definitely had the desire, but just didn't have the money.

I think Toyota has the facilities and expertise, THEY just didn't have the desire. Then, they have their partner who does have the desire presenting them with this......bang!! Let them do the leg work.
I know we have round and round about this before...this is where I got my info...

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Old 09-06-2012, 09:24 PM   #317
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The BRZ was Subaru's idea that was taken to Toyota. They definitely had the desire, but just didn't have the money.

I think Toyota has the facilities and expertise, THEY just didn't have the desire. Then, they have their partner who does have the desire presenting them with this......bang!! Let them do the leg work.
I know we have round and round about this before...this is where I got my info...


Like I said before, it seems to be a he said, she said situation.
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:26 PM   #318
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I like to think that they were both out on a saki bender, talking about how one works for Subaru and only has AWD fun cars (WRX, STI) and the other works for Toyota and he only has expensive fun cars (IS350, IS-F) and they look up across the table and the other guy had the exact same thought, realizing that by working together they can make an inexpensive, fun RWD car that brings something new to both companies. I'm a homer for both companies, so it is pretty perfect that they came together and built exactly what I wanted.
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:37 AM   #319
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I doubt the STi 6 speed will be put in the WRX, too heavy and too costly. As Snow Drift reiterated, when SOA release the info on the separation of Impreza and WRX/Sti, I took it as suspension and drive-train components not looks.

Remember SOA did market the 08 Impreza and WRX/STi as two different cars developed by separate teams.

Peace,

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Old 09-07-2012, 09:10 AM   #320
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Remember SOA did market the 08 Impreza and WRX/STi as two different cars developed by separate teams.

Peace,

Greg
I remember they said the STI was going to be based off of a different shell.. and it was, with flared fenders and extra body reinforcements.. until '11 when the WRX joined it.

The STI has always been developed by a different team, in theory.. STI. I don't remember anything about the WRX being developed separately in '08.
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:44 AM   #321
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The BRZ was Subaru's idea that was taken to Toyota. They definitely had the desire, but just didn't have the money.

I think Toyota has the facilities and expertise, THEY just didn't have the desire. Then, they have their partner who does have the desire presenting them with this......bang!! Let them do the leg work.
I will never believe this (not you, but the concept).

Subaru, the maker of all things AWD, would never wake up and say "We really really want to build a low volume RWD coupe."

This was 100% Toyota's idea as ToyoDa san wanted to put some excitment into the Toyota lineup in order to lower the median age of buyers (Scion is a huge flop).

Unfortunately, Toyota, since the old MR2 and Supra or LFA, hasn't made a real sporty car in decades needed Subaru's experience (and factory space) to do it.

Toyota's are known to be very simple engines and do not have the technical expertise for this type of undertaking. This is why Subaru had to develop the entire car; engineering, chassis, engine (ok not the D4-S), etc.
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:59 AM   #322
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I know we have round and round about this before...this is where I got my info...

2013 Scion FR-S/Toyota 86 Chief Engineer Tetsuya Tada Interview - YouTube

I am going to see if I can use this video and get some clarification from Subaru. Doubt it, but I will try.
(Just sent a question in on Subarunet)

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I will never believe this (not you, but the concept).

Subaru, the maker of all things AWD, would never wake up and say "We really really want to build a low volume RWD coupe."

This was 100% Toyota's idea as ToyoDa san wanted to put some excitment into the Toyota lineup in order to lower the median age of buyers (Scion is a huge flop).

Unfortunately, Toyota, since the old MR2 and Supra or LFA, hasn't made a real sporty car in decades needed Subaru's experience (and factory space) to do it.

Toyota's are known to be very simple engines and do not have the technical expertise for this type of undertaking. This is why Subaru had to develop the entire car; engineering, chassis, engine (ok not the D4-S), etc.

The factory space idea is interesting. Back when they decided this, they were going to build a dedicated plant for it. It was also back right when Subaru started their massive sales increase that has severely taxed their production base.

Last edited by JustyWRC; 09-07-2012 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 09-07-2012, 11:09 AM   #323
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The factory space idea is interesting. Back when they decided this, they were going to build a dedicated plant for it. It was also back right when Subaru started their massive sales increase that has severely taxed their production base.
They also outsourced all kei car production to Daihatsu/Toyota and have now killed it all together. The extra space at the Gunma plant is used to build the BRZ/FR-S/GT86.
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Old 09-07-2012, 12:12 PM   #324
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I think the outcome will be: A car that is about 150 a 200 kgs lighter than the current one. A chasis that most recembles with the BRZ and the engine lower and more backwords. Output of the engines a little up. of course WRX a 2.0l and sti 1.6.
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Old 09-07-2012, 01:19 PM   #325
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I think the outcome will be: A car that is about 150 a 200 kgs lighter than the current one. A chasis that most recembles with the BRZ and the engine lower and more backwords. Output of the engines a little up. of course WRX a 2.0l and sti 1.6.
I think you are going to be very disappointing if these are your expectations for the next gen WRX/STI... Hopefully I'm wrong.
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