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Old 09-13-2012, 01:11 PM   #451
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I'll grant that looks are somewhat subjective... but good design is still good design.

And I think there are some examples of people making the very best of what the current WRX and STI can do, in the looks department, just as with previous generations of WRX and STI.

From a fundamental standpoint of how the car is styled, stamped into the metal, Impreza, and thus WRX and STI have never been real lookers, except maybe the 22B Coupe. It is no FD-3S RX7. It is no Aston Martin Rapide... which Fusion/Mondeo, and Mazda 6 are now starting to get the hint, and take after... inherent style is stamped into the panels to begin with, and affordable cars can have good looking panels, too, even if the rest of the fit and finish is nowhere near Aston Martin, nor expected to be.

But one has to admit... there are better looking vehicles on the market than Subarus, and if Subaru combined a truly widely accepted as compelling aesthetic design, with it's already great top-end performance AWD drivetrain hardware.... there would be relatively little for an AWD performance enthusiast to hold back over.

A double threat is more effective than a single threat.

An STI that looks very good, and drives as well as an AWD performer can, and still maintains good spacial practicality as a daily driver, like say a 3-door fastback hatch sport coupe with fold-flat rear seats... in addition to a 4 and 5 door body style choice. Plus, using the new DIT* engine perhaps with regular fuel capability and a nice tall overdrive 6th gear for highway fuel economy.

That would be at least a triple or quadruple threat car.

*-direct injection can mitigate the need for high octane while also allowing a higher static compression ratio, and thus more latent power when off-boost... less requirement to cruise at a buzzy 3000+ RPM on the highway, and pumping cheaper fuel at the gas pumps, and generally slightly lower fuel bills without losing the performance we expect.

If Audi isn't going to build this... why can't Subaru take a stab at something similar? Audi already makes this as a Sedan, Wagon, and CUV, as the A4, A5 (larger, longer and heavier coupe), A5 Sportback, A4 Avant and Allroad wagons, and Q3 CUV... All the same B8 platform. Subaru can build next WRX/STI as a 5-door, 4-door, and 3-door, and they could make it look GREAT, if they wanted to.
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Last edited by HipToBeSquare; 09-13-2012 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 09-13-2012, 01:20 PM   #452
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare
An STI that looks very good, and drives as well as an AWD performer can, and still maintains good spacial practicality as a daily driver, like say a 3-door fastback hatch sport coupe with fold-flat rear seats... in addition to a 4 and 5 door body style choice. Plus, using the new DIT* engine perhaps with regular fuel capability and a nice tall overdrive 6th gear for highway fuel economy.
I like this! Specially the 3 door fast back hatch idea! Make that the STI and the 5 door the WRX. That, weight difference, along with the usual STI goodies should diferentiate them enough.
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Old 09-13-2012, 01:31 PM   #453
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I was thinking all 3 body styles with the option of either base WRX drivetrain, or optional STI drivetrain... Sort of like now, how WRX and STI are both available as either 4 or 5 door cars... just add the 3-door coupe to the list with the next generation.

If the 4 door looks like the Impreza Design Concept (low sleek sedan roof), and the 5-door looks like the Advanced Tourer Concept with the full length roof, and vertical rear hatch, a 3-door fastback would be a nice compliment to make the trio.

I am not usually pleased when one option I want to have precludes the body style I want to have it in... so I wouldn't want to do that to other people who want other body styles.
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Old 09-13-2012, 01:51 PM   #454
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Gotcha, I like that idea too. The more options the better.
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Old 09-13-2012, 02:01 PM   #455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
An STI that looks very good, and drives as well as an AWD performer can, and still maintains good spacial practicality as a daily driver, like say a 3-door fastback hatch sport coupe with fold-flat rear seats... in addition to a 4 and 5 door body style choice. Plus, using the new DIT* engine perhaps with regular fuel capability and a nice tall overdrive 6th gear for highway fuel economy.
Interesting you bring up a 3-door. To be honest, I would much rather see time and money spent elsewhere than developing a 3-door. I'm bias since I prefer 4 doors (although I own a 3-door now..), but I do think there would be more demand for 4/5 door than 3. Just a hunch though..

Last edited by endlesss; 09-13-2012 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 09-13-2012, 02:03 PM   #456
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You guys better quit talking about things you want in the next WRX or it won't happen. It's as if SOA, not Subaru, reads what we want and purposely doesn't offer it to it's US customers.
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Old 09-13-2012, 02:44 PM   #457
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Interesting you bring up a 3-door. To be honest, I would much rather see time and money spent elsewhere than developing a 3-door. I'm bias since I prefer 4 doors (although I own a 3-door now..), but I do think there would be more demand for 4/5 door than 3. Just a hunch though..
Didn't say that a theoretical 3-door would out-sell it's 4 or 5 door siblings... but it would still be nice for those of us who want an AWD coupe... to have an option.

And you are an example of exactly why I said it shouldn't JUST be a 3-door.

Lots of car platforms come on 3 or more body styles, I listed 6 for Audi's B8 chassis alone. those 6 cars don't all sell the same number of units, yet they are still offered.
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Old 09-13-2012, 03:06 PM   #458
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Originally Posted by RicersWetDream View Post
The only difference was a turbo and tune for the engine, literally every other part is the same. Add in the watered down styling and soft suspension they had a dud that everybody called them out on. They were trying to appeal to a wider, more mature market and it backfired.

Subaru said "I'll show them", at least that's what I like to think. They basically left the 08 around as the 2009 Impreza GT and it did even worse.

But knowing Subaru, they test and test and test something to make sure it won't have any reliability issues. Sure, go ahead and take about bearings and such. That really wasn't big enough. It's just hard to believe they could do THAT much in just one year. People complained about the STI also. The engine was seriously reworked, yet didn't have THAT much improvement. It also took them THREE model years from 2008 to just do a suspension upgrade that people had been complaining about.

They left the Impreza GT around because that automatic couldn't handle 265hp, but they still wanted to offer people an auto.
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Old 09-13-2012, 03:11 PM   #459
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You guys better quit talking about things you want in the next WRX or it won't happen. It's as if SOA, not Subaru, reads what we want and purposely doesn't offer it to it's US customers.
lol.

in 2006 I said I wanted (and would be in line to buy) a wagon STI.

*poof* they made it happen, and I plunked down money for it.

I may eat crow...

but I doubt there will be a 2 door AWD coupe/hatch from Subaru with WRX, or STI on the back.

I do believe that there will be a 2 door RWD coupe/hatch from Subaru that will say STI and BRZ on it and will have a turbo under the bonnet (even if it's only in the 250hp range).
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Old 09-13-2012, 03:16 PM   #460
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lol.
I do believe that there will be a 2 door RWD coupe/hatch from Subaru that will say STI and BRZ on it and will have a turbo under the bonnet (even if it's only in the 250hp range).
I don't think that will happen because of the Toyota overlords. I think an AWD has a better chance.
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Old 09-13-2012, 03:30 PM   #461
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The only thing compelling enough to get me to buy a new car other than an AWD daily driver, would be something like this...

And powered by a sweet-singing atmospheric, true-dual exhaust EZ-family H6, tuned like the FA20 to ~100hp/liter.



This is my photoshopped demonstration, it is not real, not even rumored. But I would trade my Miata for that, powered by a 3.4 liter 340hp H6.

(EZ36's 92mm bore x FA20's 86mm stroke on straight con-rods x 6 cylinders is ~3.4 liters... with D-4S injection, and a 12:1 compression ratio, and ideal cam profiles.... and not being corked to protect a 5EAT transaxle, but rather unleashed and paired with a properly robust 6MT Aisin transmission, I think 320-340 horsepower is within reach in a smoother H6 arrangement than the likes of Hyundai's 3.8, or Nissan's 3.7 V6s.

And I would prefer the FR-S's front fascia, and gauge panel... with BRZ's auto climate control panel and dark-housing HID&LED headlights. And red-out tail lights are a must.
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Old 09-13-2012, 03:36 PM   #462
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
Didn't say that a theoretical 3-door would out-sell it's 4 or 5 door siblings... but it would still be nice for those of us who want an AWD coupe... to have an option.

And you are an example of exactly why I said it shouldn't JUST be a 3-door.

Lots of car platforms come on 3 or more body styles, I listed 6 for Audi's B8 chassis alone. those 6 cars don't all sell the same number of units, yet they are still offered.
I completely agree, options are good. The only catch is, like I eluded to before, it costs time and money to develop the additional body style. If they spend that budget on performance and/or efficiency I think it would better serve everyone.

I suppose this is a hypercritical argument. Really, if the next gen wrx is lighter, more fuel efficient, and better handling I'll be happy. Could care less about doors and I'm not even asking for more power! Take that SOA..
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Old 09-13-2012, 04:21 PM   #463
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I completely agree, options are good. The only catch is, like I eluded to before, it costs time and money to develop the additional body style. If they spend that budget on performance and/or efficiency I think it would better serve everyone.

I suppose this is a hypercritical argument. Really, if the next gen wrx is lighter, more fuel efficient, and better handling I'll be happy. Could care less about doors and I'm not even asking for more power! Take that SOA..
Body styles are relatively easy for companies to implement.

Subaru has two main lines now. The base line has at least 4 variants, with Impreza 4-door, 5-door, XV Crosstrek sharing a variant of the 5-door, and Forester, plus they are still stamping existing WRX and STIs also.

The upper line has Legacy sedan, Outback wagon (with a Legacy wagon variant in other markets), and Tribeca.

Plus Exiga fits in there, somewhere.

yes it costs money, but in scope... not that much. Every car company builds lots of body-styles, and makes lots of cosmetic changes every other year or so... Driveline and 'efficiency' engineering is a different aspect, and usually applies to many models.

If it were that prohibitively expensive, there wouldn't be two WRX and STI body styles now, when previously it was only one. Before 08, STIs were sedans only. 08-09 they were 5-doors only. Now both WRX and STI are both 4 and 5 doors respectively, sharing the same flared-fender shell.

And if there are more customers to be had by catching them with an additional body style... it means more revenue, not just more costs.

Right now, nobody makes a car like an AWD 3-door WRX/STI would be. Right now there is no option to buy one anywhere near new, or under 35K. The only thing close is the Golf R, which is another discussion in the non-subaru news forum.

Offering ONE car on that niche segment would mean that any buyers who want an AWD competitor to any of the RWD or FWD coupes on the market... would go to that one option.

If Subaru is that one option, Subaru makes that money from those customers.

There is more than just me who is hesitant to buy a nice RWD coupe, even a BRZ or FRS that would send money Subaru's way, in a snow belt area, with an increased risk of loss of control resulting in damage to the car, and possibly injury to the driver or passengers. Other brands are bringing AWD to bear on more and more models... and there are some coupes above 40K that offer it... just nothing under $35K.
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Old 09-13-2012, 05:09 PM   #464
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Racecomp Engineering just asked people what they wanted to see in the next WRX on their facebook page. Lots of interesting responses....lots of variety. Many still want to see big power capabilities. And of course, Recaros.

No matter what SOMEONE is going to be disappointed. I'd bet on a slightly lighter, more fuel efficient design with DI in some form. A 2.0 motor wouldn't surprise me and big power may not be possible depending on the type of DI they use. But better MPGs with a lighter chassis with real driving excitement in stock form could be a hit in the market.

I want an interior at least on the level of the BRZ (which isn't perfect, but much better than current WRX). 6 spd manual. 6 spd dual clutch wouldn't offend me. Better mpg, lightness, and decent shocks. Maybe some real diffs. I'd be happy with a 3 or a 5 door. And at least relatively grown up looks.
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Old 09-13-2012, 05:11 PM   #465
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Originally Posted by a2cpc View Post
I don't think that will happen because of the Toyota overlords. I think an AWD has a better chance.
Considering the placement of the engine, we'll not see AWD on the BRZ (unless it is through electric motors on the front wheels).

Rumors (confirmed rumors? back in April) are that TRD is working on a supercharger for the FRS, if Toyota is allowed to do that, then I can't see why Subaru would have ever made any agreement to NOT add a turbo to the BRZ.
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Old 09-13-2012, 05:17 PM   #466
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I just don't get it....Subaru already has the STI and WRX. Why would something like this sell?

Just because you can't understand why people might be interested in this car or might not be interested yourself, does not mean that there aren't other people interested or a market for it.
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Old 09-13-2012, 06:09 PM   #467
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Considering the placement of the engine, we'll not see AWD on the BRZ (unless it is through electric motors on the front wheels).
Oh, I know that the BRZ is far from AWD friendly. I was referring, evidently poorly, to the next WRX/STI

Quote:
Originally Posted by samagon View Post
Rumors (confirmed rumors? back in April) are that TRD is working on a supercharger for the FRS, if Toyota is allowed to do that, then I can't see why Subaru would have ever made any agreement to NOT add a turbo to the BRZ.
I agree, if Toyota ups the power then Subaru should be able to do the same. Again, none of us really knows what is in the agreement. Heck for all we know, there might be a term limit on how long Subaru can sell the BRZ. To me, it appears they were pretty much just the vendor in this whole venture.
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Old 09-13-2012, 06:46 PM   #468
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
Body styles are relatively easy for companies to implement...

yes it costs money, but in scope... not that much.
D4MNIT Hip, you DO NOT KNOW WHAT IT COSTS, you are making an uneducated assumption. You cannot state things like that as fact to support your arguement when you do not know what it costs for new sheetmetal, new crash tests, new certifications, new training, new parts, new assembly procedures. There are hundreds of hidden costs NONE OF US KNOW about.

You seriously need to insert this before EVERY single thing you type:

I DO NOT THINK it would cost much to develop!!
I DO NOT THINK it would be too expensive to develop

pick one, but do not assume you know how much it costs, and what percentage of the companies total money that costs is.
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Old 09-13-2012, 07:12 PM   #469
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The evidence of the products on the market proves that it is not prohibitively expensive for car companies... pretty much ANY car company, to offer multiple body styles and frequent body style upgrades, both minor and more significant.

If it was prohibitively expensive, we would see the results, and each company would offer 3 or 4 body styles TOTAL... far less than we currently see.

There are companies like Hyundai and Kia, Ford with Lincoln, GM throughout..., Toyota with Lexus and Scion, BMW/Mini, and several chassis sharing arrangments throughout VW's Auto group, that put out even some REDUNDANT body styles on the same platform, PLUS the costs of running additional brand channels.

Car companies put MORE than 3 or 4 body styles on each CHASSIS PLATFORM regularly.

Deductive reasoning shows that it cannot be prohibitively expensive to do so, even if we don't know the internal accounting.

Look around at a car lot, the results are evidence enough to make assertions.
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Old 09-13-2012, 08:02 PM   #470
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You are evaluating companies on what you perceive as metrics. What is not hard for one car company may be darn near impossible for another.

You cannot apply such a simplistic rationalization on the automotive industry with thousands of variables. 'He did it, so everybody can do it'

Usain Bolt and I are both functional bipeds. So therefore I should be able to run the 100m in 9.5 seconds. Deductive reasoning says so.

Deductive reasoning shows you have a very small capacity to understand the automotive industry and its many layers. It also shows you place a disproportionately large amount of faith in your conclusions. Almost to the point of delusion.

If all the internal accounting were the same for all companies, you would have a somewhat valid argument if we all agree to ignore half a dozen other variables. But as you HAVE NO CLUE what the internal accounting is please stop making such profoundly silly statements.

But since you brought up accounting...

How do you suppose Subaru compares to the industrial GIANTS like

Hyundia
Ford
GM
Toyota
BMW
VW

I am really glad you picked those as examples. They all produce and sell more cars than Subaru ever dreams of per year. They are industrial juggernauts compared to Subaru. So I can tell you that the internal accounting GROSSLY favors those companies over Subaru
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Old 09-13-2012, 08:19 PM   #471
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
The only thing compelling enough to get me to buy a new car other than an AWD daily driver, would be something like this...

And powered by a sweet-singing atmospheric, true-dual exhaust EZ-family H6, tuned like the FA20 to ~100hp/liter.



This is my photoshopped demonstration, it is not real, not even rumored. But I would trade my Miata for that, powered by a 3.4 liter 340hp H6.

(EZ36's 92mm bore x FA20's 86mm stroke on straight con-rods x 6 cylinders is ~3.4 liters... with D-4S injection, and a 12:1 compression ratio, and ideal cam profiles.... and not being corked to protect a 5EAT transaxle, but rather unleashed and paired with a properly robust 6MT Aisin transmission, I think 320-340 horsepower is within reach in a smoother H6 arrangement than the likes of Hyundai's 3.8, or Nissan's 3.7 V6s.

And I would prefer the FR-S's front fascia, and gauge panel... with BRZ's auto climate control panel and dark-housing HID&LED headlights. And red-out tail lights are a must.
Then you must want something like this...
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Old 09-13-2012, 08:23 PM   #472
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
The only thing compelling enough to get me to buy a new car other than an AWD daily driver, would be something like this...

And powered by a sweet-singing atmospheric, true-dual exhaust EZ-family H6, tuned like the FA20 to ~100hp/liter.



This is my photoshopped demonstration, it is not real, not even rumored. But I would trade my Miata for that, powered by a 3.4 liter 340hp H6.

(EZ36's 92mm bore x FA20's 86mm stroke on straight con-rods x 6 cylinders is ~3.4 liters... with D-4S injection, and a 12:1 compression ratio, and ideal cam profiles.... and not being corked to protect a 5EAT transaxle, but rather unleashed and paired with a properly robust 6MT Aisin transmission, I think 320-340 horsepower is within reach in a smoother H6 arrangement than the likes of Hyundai's 3.8, or Nissan's 3.7 V6s.

And I would prefer the FR-S's front fascia, and gauge panel... with BRZ's auto climate control panel and dark-housing HID&LED headlights. And red-out tail lights are a must.
Then you must want something like...The Factory Five 818 which looks surprisingly like your photochop. Once the kit is done I think you can get the company next door build it and have it on the street for around $25K

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Old 09-13-2012, 08:24 PM   #473
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Then you must want something like this...
Oh, now that is just TOO cute.
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Old 09-13-2012, 08:41 PM   #474
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No way is this going to be the NEW wrx line. I guarantee this body style was used to test new motor and suspension technology. Why would Subaru not disguise the car like all the other spy photos... Think about it.
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Old 09-13-2012, 11:32 PM   #475
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No way is this going to be the NEW wrx line. I guarantee this body style was used to test new motor and suspension technology. Why would Subaru not disguise the car like all the other spy photos... Think about it.
I think you're going to be disappointed, honestly. I think This is a drivetrain mule, and they didn't disguise it because the fenders, quarter panels and hood are all going to change for the WRX/STI, just like they do right now. Suspension would require the wider wheels/tires/track, so they wouldn't need to test that yet. Again, just my thinking on this. And honestly, it makes me a lot happier that this could potentially be the WRX/STI's path rather than some Fiesta sized vehicle.
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