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Old 10-09-2012, 08:46 PM   #751
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Originally Posted by EtoS View Post
So no one has seen the center of the earth, it doesn't mean we can't formulate educated guesses to come to a solid conclusion.
But we have seen Subaru produce, on occasion, cars that didn't fit into their history. Again, I submit the XT, SVX, Brat and BRZ.

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Originally Posted by EtoS View Post
And again the worst selling cars for every automaker by a large margin are coupes. So why spend the extra coin to make it less appealing to the public?
Yet almost every automaker makes them? Curious

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Originally Posted by EtoS View Post
Here's another problem most refuse to deal with: 99% of all WRX/STi owners couldn't even drive a Yaris to it's limit. Everyone talks about the great benefit they'll get from a coupe WRX/STi and how it'll be the "sickest wickedest badassest ride evaaaarr!!" yet couldn't possibly squeeze out every last bit. So who the **** cares if making it a coupe could make it a better car, most of us still wouldn't be able to eek out that performance edge out of it anyway.
Once again, did I ever say that? And thanks for slamming the 99%

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Originally Posted by EtoS View Post
And even if we could, it would be whole heartily outright retarded to do that on the street.
Agreed

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Originally Posted by EtoS View Post
How many WRX/STi owners actually take their cars to a track anyway?
I do on occasion...

and


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Originally Posted by EtoS View Post
We use it for going to work, out to the store, traveling and etc. Subaru is just making a balance between utility and sporty and they are giving us a bit of both in the form of lighter, more stiff, more room. What the hell is not to like about that? Oh yeah the prospect of having a useless backseat
First of all, if you have read my posts long enough you would know that I do not advocate a coupe. I much prefer 3 door hatch. Something around the size and shape of a Volvo C-30 which has a wheelbase all of .2 inches smaller than the current Impreza. If my only choices are a coupe or 5 door I will probably go with the 5 door. Properly designed, a smaller 3 door would still provide room and a usable back seat for your listed chores.

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a2cpc, how about you give a detailed explanation as why you think it'll be a coupe regardless of all the reasons I outlined. And sorry- having a few(very few) people with deep desire to have a 2door AWD subaru is not enough for subaru.
Like I said, I don't want a coupe. I am not going to make up a bunch of "facts" to back my opinion, it's an opinion. Likewise I am not going to Ridicule yours. Like I said Subaru has produced several 2 door coupes in its history, 360, 1000, R2, G, Star, Justy, Leone, K21, Vivio, Impreza, and the BRZ. Why wouldn't they do it again?
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:04 PM   #752
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Originally Posted by sc00by4life

a wrx or sti are not sports cars at its core definition, the BRZ is.

ETOS poined out exactly WHY there is absolutely 0 need for a coupe wrx or sti.

and the BRZ is PROOF that they created a coupe for the masses, and don't need to make even more coupe variants when one is readily available.
Which is why a lot of people visualize the next WRX as a 3 door hot hatch. what other sports car is Subaru working on bringing in the near future?

Last edited by Otobot; 10-09-2012 at 10:01 PM.
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Old 10-09-2012, 11:35 PM   #753
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Originally Posted by Cocoa Beach Bum View Post
That ain't gonna happen.

FHI recently published its annual report for FY2012 (see http://www.fhi.co.jp/english/ir/report/ar.html) and it included a long message from Toshio Masuda, who is an FHI VP and Chief General Manager of the Subaru Product & Portfolio Planning Division. Here's an excerpt from that message:
...
That is why there won't be a turbo Impreza in the future, unless the engine is very small (i.e. 1.5L or smaller).
I somehow missed your post the first time through the thread. Valuable stuff there. Thank you. Definitely sounds like no turbo Impreza GT in the works... doesn't seem to entirely rule out an Impreza RS-type model, with a higher-output NA 2.0, but that's not what the turbo'd Impreza mule would be then. Could still be a 1.6L turbo hybrid, no?
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Old 10-09-2012, 11:44 PM   #754
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Originally Posted by a2cpc View Post
But we have seen Subaru produce, on occasion, cars that didn't fit into their history. Again, I submit the XT, SVX, Brat and BRZ.
I'm assuming by XT you mean the turbo forester? Realize the forester and impreza have been sharing platforms for a long time now. It takes very little to make foresters turbo. SVX lasted how long again? And it only came in auto, how so sporty. Really going to bring up the Brat, a car from how many decades ago? BRZ was a joint project that subaru would of never done on their own.


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Originally Posted by a2cpc View Post
Yet almost every automaker makes them? Curious
And all those other automakers each have more R&D money then the entire worth of subaru. They also never changed the floor plan of their coupe variants, just the placement of the doors. Still they sell like crap.



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Originally Posted by a2cpc View Post
Once again, did I ever say that? And thanks for slamming the 99%
You call it slamming, I call it looking at reality. No you did not say coupes makes cars faster, but pretty much everyone else has been saying it.




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Originally Posted by a2cpc View Post
I do on occasion...
As do I. However that's like trying to make a rule out of the exception. Most people do NOT bring their cars to the track or anything close to it like an autox. I bet you more people highway "race" their subarus then bring them to the track.



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Originally Posted by a2cpc View Post
First of all, if you have read my posts long enough you would know that I do not advocate a coupe. I much prefer 3 door hatch. Something around the size and shape of a Volvo C-30 which has a wheelbase all of .2 inches smaller than the current Impreza. If my only choices are a coupe or 5 door I will probably go with the 5 door. Properly designed, a smaller 3 door would still provide room and a usable back seat for your listed chores.
One of the SOA guys told me the story behind the GR when Japan was making them. SOA never saw them before and the first time they did, all Japan had was a hatch impreza, no sedan. SOA pretty much said WTF, USA don't do hatches, we do sedans, make a god damn sedan PRONTO. Point being if you were to see a 3 door hatch, it would require a 2 door variant. USDM dictates what gets made since we are the biggest consumer of subarus. And sorry to say but as far as subarus go, even the GR lacked legroom in the back seat. I have not sat in the 2012 impreza to see what it has. I doubt they could ever make a smaller then GR impreza and have better or the same legroom.



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Originally Posted by a2cpc View Post
Like I said, I don't want a coupe. I am not going to make up a bunch of "facts" to back my opinion, it's an opinion. Likewise I am not going to Ridicule yours. Like I said Subaru has produced several 2 door coupes in its history, 360, 1000, R2, G, Star, Justy, Leone, K21, Vivio, Impreza, and the BRZ. Why wouldn't they do it again?
I didn't make up any facts. I used what is well known knowledge to back my understanding of what's going to happen. Sorry it doesn't fit in your fantasy but it's the truth. I just think it's funny in a sad kinda way that people are expecting something that won't happen based on cherry picked statements that got twisted by media. Dropping the impreza name is nothing more then a marketing trick subaru is trying. They already have the BRZ as a performance coupe, why canabalize sales by making competing models?

Simply answer this- the BRZ currently comes in at about $25k right? The WRX roughly the same give or take a couple hundred correct? So lets say they made the WRX/STi a smaller platform 2door/3door. Who in their right minds would ever choose for the same money a car that doesn't have AWD and turbo for the same money? Only purists and honestly they are very rare. That's why the WRX exists, it's a sporty car with utility, a fast grocery getter.

BTW I am not ridiculing anyone. You see it that way cause I simply give unfiltered no PC statements. I don't beat around the bush or ***** foot, not used to that I take it?
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Old 10-09-2012, 11:51 PM   #755
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Originally Posted by sc00by4life View Post
a wrx or sti are not sports cars at its core definition, the BRZ is.

ETOS poined out exactly WHY there is absolutely 0 need for a coupe wrx or sti.

and the BRZ is PROOF that they created a coupe for the masses, and don't need to make even more coupe variants when one is readily available.
EtoS only pointed out why he thinks there is absolutely 0 need for a coupe WRX or STI. He only has hopes and dreams, just like the rest of us. No facts, just opinions. Why does BMW, Audi, Nissan and others produce sporty coupes? Certainly someone buys them and I am sure Subaru won't produce them if they don't think they will sell.

Maybe the success of the BRZ is the nail in the coffin or...the proof that a coupe, or in my case a 3 door WRX/STI would be successful. Did you ever think that maybe the reason for the resistance to adding more power to the BRZ is because there might be something else in the works? You know like a bigger, 5 door, lowered XV STI or something.

I need to go to bed.
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:01 AM   #756
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Which is why a lot of people visualize the next WRX as a 3 door hot hatch. what other sports car is Subaru working on bringing in the near future?
I believe the text you are referring to says a new WRX and a brand-new "sport wagon", rather than "sports car".

In the transcript of the Motion-V plan presentation it says "In the latter half of the mid-term plan period we will also see a new model with a new concept which is just the right size for the Japanese market". So that would presumably be some kind of small-car concept around 2014.
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:05 AM   #757
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I'm assuming by XT you mean the turbo forester? Realize the forester and impreza have been sharing platforms for a long time now. It takes very little to make foresters turbo.
No, he meant the angular XT/XT6/Alcyone coupe from 1985-1991.
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:34 AM   #758
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So what exactly does "designed from the ground up to compete in motorsports" mean if it will just be an Impreza with fender flares and a turbo?
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:23 AM   #759
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So what exactly does "designed from the ground up to compete in motorsports" mean if it will just be an Impreza with fender flares and a turbo?
I'm not sure if this is directed to me. If so, I'm not trying to argue that it will be an Impreza with flares + turbo. I don't think it will be.

Just not sure there will be a coupe or 3-dr hatch version of the WRX, unless "sport wagon" could be a 3-door wagon. "Sport wagon" to me implies the Advanced Tourer concept, but that seems a bit large to be targeted to JDM (but maybe not). Motor Trend predicted the Advanced Tourer was in fact a preview of the next WRX. Maybe WRX becomes a sporty tourer and something new & smaller "sized for the Japanese market" becomes the next motorsports-focused vehicle. Lots of facts, but not enough to connect everything yet, IMHO.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:48 AM   #760
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I'm not sure if this is directed to me. If so, I'm not trying to argue that it will be an Impreza with flares + turbo. I don't think it will be.

Just not sure there will be a coupe or 3-dr hatch version of the WRX, unless "sport wagon" could be a 3-door wagon. "Sport wagon" to me implies the Advanced Tourer concept, but that seems a bit large to be targeted to JDM (but maybe not). Motor Trend predicted the Advanced Tourer was in fact a preview of the next WRX. Maybe WRX becomes a sporty tourer and something new & smaller "sized for the Japanese market" becomes the next motorsports-focused vehicle. Lots of facts, but not enough to connect everything yet, IMHO.
It was kind of directed at Etos for saying the next WRX will continue the same trend as the others minus the deletion of the Impreza name. based upon what little Subaru has said in my opinion it will be a more focused performance vehicle.

The GR impreza was overengineered so that it could handle the stresses of its higher performing variant. The point of seperating the two was so that they could save money by only overengineering the WRX/STI. So this lends me to belive it will be more than just an Impreza with the usual fender flares and performance add ons.

Now weather it will be a 2 door, or 3 door hatch, or 5 door hatch is up for debate and speculation. I would personally prefer the 3door. some people say there is no market for these kinds of cars, I say they are wrong. The market is growing and Subaru needs to realize they will be the only 3 door hatch AWD Turbo car thats relatively affordable. most people that would spend 30-40 grand on a performance car arent looking for practicality. they more than likely have a second or third vehicle for that. If they dont, they need to take a close look at their finances and personal priorities.

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Old 10-10-2012, 11:58 AM   #761
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Have you guys ever thought that Subaru really is only releasing the BRZ for a limited run, possibly only 2 model years, and then discontinuing it to make a WRX variant to fill the coupe segment? Then no one could argue about whether or not to buy the BRZ or the coupe WRX since there would only be the coupe WRX.

And I use "coupe WRX" loosely. I'd rather see an STI coupe. Makes much more sense since the WRX is meant to be the "go anywhere, do whatever car" and STI is purposed for competition.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:00 PM   #762
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Originally Posted by chanomatik
Have you guys ever thought that Subaru really is only releasing the BRZ for a limited run, possibly only 2 model years
I was wondering this earlier today, but isn't Toyota using Subaru's facilities to produce the 86 and FR-S?

I makes sense to me that if the production space is already taken to make Toyotas, then Subaru would continue to make the BRZ. They're already setup for it and that space doesn't clear out if the BRZ is discontinued, I assume they will continue turning a profit until Toyota moves out. Then they would have space for a new model.

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Old 10-10-2012, 01:13 PM   #763
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...Sorry it doesn't fit in your fantasy but it's the truth. I just think it's funny in a sad kinda way that people are expecting something that won't happen based on cherry picked statements that got twisted by media. Dropping the impreza name is nothing more then a marketing trick subaru is trying. They already have the BRZ as a performance coupe, why canabalize sales by making competing models?

Simply answer this- the BRZ currently comes in at about $25k right? The WRX roughly the same give or take a couple hundred correct? So lets say they made the WRX/STi a smaller platform 2door/3door. Who in their right minds would ever choose for the same money a car that doesn't have AWD and turbo for the same money? Only purists and honestly they are very rare. That's why the WRX exists, it's a sporty car with utility, a fast grocery getter...
I thought I was the only one around here who thought people were reading too much into "seperating from the Impreza." People are using an obscure quote, translated from Japanese, and likely taken out of context, as proof that the next WRX will somehow be fundamentally different from the Impreza.

A lot of people say the next WRX "won't share any bodywork" with the Impreza. I think the only things on my 2012 WRX that aren't different from the old Impreza hatch are the front doors, roof, and rear hatch. Everything else is already different. What more could you want?

I want a 3 door WRX as much as anybody, but there really isn't anything wrong with the status quo. Amalgamating the WRX with the Impreza keeps the costs down, and the practicality up. One of my favorite things about my WRX is how it is fast and practical. I think that is a critical part of the WRX formula.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:24 PM   #764
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Originally Posted by chanomatik View Post
Have you guys ever thought that Subaru really is only releasing the BRZ for a limited run, possibly only 2 model years, and then discontinuing it to make a WRX variant to fill the coupe segment? Then no one could argue about whether or not to buy the BRZ or the coupe WRX since there would only be the coupe WRX.
Ding! Ding! Ding! I have been saying this all along. If you think about it this makes tremendous sense. I have always read it as Toyota came to Subaru with money for R&D and Production, Toyota then said something along the lines of... you can sell every third or fourth car off the line, if it is successful we will continue to pay you to make them, but you can only sell them for XXX years. You can only sell a more upscale version than ours and you cannot make any power enhancements unless we both get them.

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And I use "coupe WRX" loosely. I'd rather see an STI coupe. Makes much more sense since the WRX is meant to be the "go anywhere, do whatever car" and STI is purposed for competition.
As everyone on here knows I would love to see a 3 door, but you are right, an STI "coupe" does make more sense.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:45 PM   #765
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SOA Blog has said that Subaru felt that we deserved to have a little bit for ourselves instead of Toyota being exclusive to it. This is why I think it'll be a limited run. Kind of like, "Okay, that was fun, now back to business."

Like was mentioned, they're made on the same line, but how hard is it to make the BRZ variant for a bit and then ceasing production, but continuing the GT-86/FR-S? I honestly do not believe the BRZ STI rumors. I think we're only going to get the BRZ for about 2 model years, then it'll be done and we'll be on to the WRX/STI.

It might be easy for Subaru to make the BRZ, but from a line-up and business perspective, not having the BRZ so you CAN sell an STI coupe would get along further. However, if the coupe were only available as the WRX STI and it cost $35k+, then a $25k BRZ non-STI might still be okay.

A WRX coupe sounds insane, though. The WRX only exists because people don't want to pay STI money and love having the utility. Coupe is anti-utility, which is why I currently own a BRZ.

Basically just summing up what was posted within the 3 posts before me.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:58 PM   #766
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SOA Blog has said that Subaru felt that we deserved to have a little bit for ourselves instead of Toyota being exclusive to it. This is why I think it'll be a limited run. Kind of like, "Okay, that was fun, now back to business."

Like was mentioned, they're made on the same line, but how hard is it to make the BRZ variant for a bit and then ceasing production, but continuing the GT-86/FR-S? I honestly do not believe the BRZ STI rumors. I think we're only going to get the BRZ for about 2 model years, then it'll be done and we'll be on to the WRX/STI.

It might be easy for Subaru to make the BRZ, but from a line-up and business perspective, not having the BRZ so you CAN sell an STI coupe would get along further. However, if the coupe were only available as the WRX STI and it cost $35k+, then a $25k BRZ non-STI might still be okay.

A WRX coupe sounds insane, though. The WRX only exists because people don't want to pay STI money and love having the utility. Coupe is anti-utility, which is why I currently own a BRZ.

Basically just summing up what was posted within the 3 posts before me.
We almost never comment on speculationz - but the BRZ is here to stay. No limited run. Just think about the initial set up costs of launching a whole new car - no company would do that for a two year run.
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:10 PM   #767
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Fine fine fine. I was speculating on the fact that Toyota was going to produce the FR-S/GT-86 anyways, so the cost seems like it would mostly defer to THEM. If Subaru were launching the BRZ all on it's own, I could see how it would be considered a waste to only have it for two model years.

However, the BRZ is limited and the other variants are being massed produced, so that's where my speculation stemmed from.

Thank you for smashing my hopes and dreams of an uber-limited BRZ.

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Old 10-10-2012, 02:25 PM   #768
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I'm assuming by XT you mean the turbo forester? Realize the forester and impreza have been sharing platforms for a long time now. It takes very little to make foresters turbo. SVX lasted how long again? And it only came in auto, how so sporty. Really going to bring up the Brat, a car from how many decades ago? BRZ was a joint project that subaru would of never done on their own.
Nope...XT/XT6/Alcyone. The SVX lasted 5 years and was built to be a Grand Tourer, not a race car so the automatic was fine. It was killed by the economy as much as design. The Brat, along with the other cars cited, we mentioned to show two things in Subaru's "history"

1) Subaru's ability and willingness to think "out of the box"
2) They were all 2 doors.

The man from Toyota, who designed the the BRZ/FRS/AE86 concept, has said that, for all intents and purposes, Subaru was basically a vendor on the vehicle. So you ar right about Subaru never making it one their own.

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And all those other automakers each have more R&D money then the entire worth of subaru. They also never changed the floor plan of their coupe variants, just the placement of the doors. Still they sell like crap.
Yet, they still make them...there must be a reason.


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I bet you more people highway "race" their subarus then bring them to the track.
You are probably correct, but I was just stating that I do.

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Originally Posted by EtoS View Post
Point being if you were to see a 3 door hatch, it would require a 2 door variant. USDM dictates what gets made since we are the biggest consumer of subarus. And sorry to say but as far as subarus go, even the GR lacked legroom in the back seat. I have not sat in the 2012 impreza to see what it has. I doubt they could ever make a smaller then GR impreza and have better or the same legroom.
Not really true, I have traveled 5 people in my 2008 for a little over 2 hours in relative comfort. Two of the rear seat passengers were my sons who come in over 6'2". It would make more sense to sell a 3 door and a 4 door sedan than a coupe to me. Most car makers make a small sedan. The potential for more rear legroom could be greater in hatch depending on the design.

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Originally Posted by EtoS View Post
I didn't make up any facts. I used what is well known knowledge to back my understanding of what's going to happen. Sorry it doesn't fit in your fantasy but it's the truth. I just think it's funny in a sad kinda way that people are expecting something that won't happen based on cherry picked statements that got twisted by media.
Pot calling kettle black?


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Dropping the impreza name is nothing more then a marketing trick subaru is trying.
Fact or Fiction?

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Originally Posted by EtoS View Post
Simply answer this- the BRZ currently comes in at about $25k right? The WRX roughly the same give or take a couple hundred correct? So lets say they made the WRX/STi a smaller platform 2door/3door. Who in their right minds would ever choose for the same money a car that doesn't have AWD and turbo for the same money? Only purists and honestly they are very rare. That's why the WRX exists, it's a sporty car with utility, a fast grocery getter.
I've stated my theory on this many times. I am not going into it again and it has no basis...pure conjecture. SOABlog just proved me wrong. So lets go with this...you have the Forrester, XV at about the same price and the Impreza 5 door, slightly cheaper, basically doing the same job yet Subaru builds them and people do buy all of them.


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BTW I am not ridiculing anyone. You see it that way cause I simply give unfiltered no PC statements. I don't beat around the bush or ***** foot, not used to that I take it?
Gee, and I always thought laughing at someone was ridicule. I guess it could just be misconstrued with rude and unintelligent, but that might be Politically Incorrect.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:33 PM   #769
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I was wondering this earlier today, but isn't Toyota using Subaru's facilities to produce the 86 and FR-S?

I makes sense to me that if the production space is already taken to make Toyotas, then Subaru would continue to make the BRZ. They're already setup for it and that space doesn't clear out if the BRZ is discontinued, I assume they will continue turning a profit until Toyota moves out. Then they would have space for a new model.
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Originally Posted by chanomatik View Post
Fine fine fine. I was speculating on the fact that Toyota was going to produce the FR-S/GT-86 anyways, so the cost seems like it would mostly defer to THEM. If Subaru were launching the BRZ all on it's own, I could see how it would be considered a waste to only have it for two model years.

However, the BRZ is limited and the other variants are being massed produced, so that's where my speculation stemmed from.

Thank you for smashing my hopes and dreams of an uber-limited BRZ.

Toyota isn't producing the cars, Subaru is. Toyota design, Subaru engineering and production. I have never heard of any plan for Toyota to move production to their plants.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:39 PM   #770
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Originally Posted by keepclam View Post
Toyota isn't producing the cars, Subaru is. Toyota design, Subaru engineering and production. I have never heard of any plan for Toyota to move production to their plants.
I wasn't talking physical production location. I was talking about who wants to put money into making the vehicles happen. Sorry, I speak fairly generically.

Toyota's desire to make the car more than Subaru is evident in the production numbers. Subaru can MAKE the cars all they want, as long as Toyota is putting the money into it.

I hope that clears up the misunderstanding.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:40 PM   #771
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Originally Posted by Lindyn11 View Post
I was wondering this earlier today, but isn't Toyota using Subaru's facilities to produce the 86 and FR-S?

I makes sense to me that if the production space is already taken to make Toyotas, then Subaru would continue to make the BRZ. They're already setup for it and that space doesn't clear out if the BRZ is discontinued, I assume they will continue turning a profit until Toyota moves out. Then they would have space for a new model.
Sorry, didn't see this. Yes, you're correct. If Subaru doesn't make the BRZ it doesn't mean they CAN'T make the Toyota variants.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:45 PM   #772
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Toyota's desire to make the car more than Subaru is evident in the production numbers. Subaru can MAKE the cars all they want, as long as Toyota is putting the money into it.
I'm not sure how much desire comes into play... Toyota's what, 10X larger than Subaru at least? (I think I've looked the number up before, but don't have time again at the moment.) Toyota plays in many more global markets and has many, many more dealerships than Subaru. If they're 10X bigger, they should sell at least 10X more of their version of the car. It's much riskier for Subaru as well, because they can't absorb too many failures, so they're likely to be more cautious with their production numbers.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:01 PM   #773
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Originally Posted by keepclam View Post
I'm not sure how much desire comes into play... Toyota's what, 10X larger than Subaru at least? (I think I've looked the number up before, but don't have time again at the moment.) Toyota plays in many more global markets and has many, many more dealerships than Subaru. If they're 10X bigger, they should sell at least 10X more of their version of the car. It's much riskier for Subaru as well, because they can't absorb too many failures, so they're likely to be more cautious with their production numbers.
Oh, come on, man. BECAUSE Toyota has more global pull, they KNEW they could make it and BECAUSE they're bigger they DO make it and can CONTINUE making it. That's all I was trying to say!

Obviously Subaru would have to look at smaller numbers because they're a smaller company. They also didn't HAVE to make the BRZ and they don't HAVE to continue making it, especially if they're going to continue making it for Toyota.

Their lack of necessity to continue making the BRZ, but desire to do so, is why I believe we COULD see a coupe STI.

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Old 10-10-2012, 05:05 PM   #774
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Originally Posted by keepclam

Toyota isn't producing the cars, Subaru is. Toyota design, Subaru engineering and production. I have never heard of any plan for Toyota to move production to their plants.
My statement was meant to include "under the assumption that BRZ is a limited run" somewhere. Thought I would clarify. At some point if the BRZ were to be discontinued, Toyota would most likely eventually take over production. Then Subaru would have all sorts of room and resources to produce a new model.

I believe the Impreza platform WILL be included in the 2014 WRX. My bets are on 2015MY for the next gen. Unless I missed a release that confirms otherwise.

Last edited by Lindyn11; 10-10-2012 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:44 PM   #775
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I have posted this before. It is a good explanation of how the BRZ was concieved and developed.

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