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Old 12-15-2012, 02:59 PM   #51
DuckStu
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I recently had a rod bearing failure on my '04 STI. (#2)

Was a new shortblock a few years ago from dealer. Forged pistons were then installed.

There was some knock for a while before I got tune finalized,... so the high wear we found in the rod bearings was expected.

But,.. during the rebuild we found something strange. I bought a new OEM crank and new ACL bearings,.. all in stock size. I figured this would make it a drop-in. But when the shop put them together and mic'd the clearances,.. they found the mains to have 2.5 - 3.5 thousandths clearance.

They're supposed to be like 1.8 thou.

We wanted about 2 thou as the car does track days, runs a 30R turbo, and I run Total 5W40 in cool weather / street,... and 10W50 for hot track days.

So we bought one size smaller ACL bearings,.. still not enough.

No smaller than that offered by them,.. so we got a set of 2 size smaller OEM bearings and mixed and matched to get the clearances right.

i have to wonder if some engine builders don't have a $1,000 bore guage to properly set the clearances and are doing it with plasti-guage or something,.... and the clearances end up being off. Oil pressure gets odd,.. maybe low in some of the bearings,... and whamo!

Just a thought. Discuss.
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Old 12-15-2012, 03:38 PM   #52
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All that is fine and dandy, but the most important part of an engine build is getting the clearance correct. ALL the clearances. The main bearings are more important than rod bearing clearances. When building engines with used blocks the mains are ALWAYS over 3 thou and sometimes closer to 5. If your builder says they aren't, uses HX bearings or something else, he's wrong. In hundreds of cases I have Never ever ever seen a used case come out with proper clearances using standard size bearings. Now some logic has to be used here in that most used cases are over 30k miles. If you have a 5k mile case, then I suppose the mains could still come out. However, we don't get 5k mile cases. I can't imagine many people do.

Now you're probably wondering "wait you said you use all new components, but now you're saying you use used cases".
Let me clarify:
1. For new builds we no longer use old cases. This policy has been in effect for about two years. We used to rebuild a lot of motors but they took more money and time than they were worth.
2. We only use used cases for sleeved, high horsepower cases. In each of those cases we mill the inside surface of the case flat and shoot the mains again. They are NEVER even close to being flat when we get them. This is because the engine has been cycled, seasoned and stress relieved. This is why the mains are always big on used cases. That is the same reason we use them for sleeving. We don't want the cases to wander after sleeving.
as I said before
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckStu View Post
I

But,.. during the rebuild we found something strange. I bought a new OEM crank and new ACL bearings,.. all in stock size. I figured this would make it a drop-in. But when the shop put them together and mic'd the clearances,.. they found the mains to have 2.5 - 3.5 thousandths clearance.

They're supposed to be like 1.8 thou.

We wanted about 2 thou as the car does track days, runs a 30R turbo, and I run Total 5W40 in cool weather / street,... and 10W50 for hot track days.

So we bought one size smaller ACL bearings,.. still not enough.

No smaller than that offered by them,.. so we got a set of 2 size smaller OEM bearings and mixed and matched to get the clearances right.

i have to wonder if some engine builders don't have a $1,000 bore guage to properly set the clearances and are doing it with plasti-guage or something,.... and the clearances end up being off. Oil pressure gets odd,.. maybe low in some of the bearings,... and whamo!

Just a thought. Discuss.
.

You and I agree.
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Old 12-15-2012, 04:00 PM   #53
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This thread is mostly about spun bearings on stock motors with bolt-ons. For that reason most of my points refer to those cars.

When stating 4th gear pulls I was referring to 5MT WRXs. I don't do 4th gear pulls on the dyno, I refuse too unless they're over 450whp. 6MT cars are 4th gear pulls on the dyno.
My reasons:
1. They are soooooo long and the load is so high
2. The engines can't handle it because of #3
3. The oil system is too small
4. 3rd gear goes to 95mph. If I'm tuning for faster than that on a street car, how representative is my tune going to be?
5. IAT sensor placement is detrimental to our engines in high gears.
If you're doing over 95 on the highway full throttle... I got nothing for you.


Let's touch on those above points a little more:
1. Speaks for itself
2. The engines are not designed for that kind of sustained load. The piston materials, ring gaps etc are not designed to do Stage 3 power levels for that long.
3. Less than five quarts. How many cars have about 5 quarts of oil? Almost all of them. The 160hp cars, the 135hp cars, the 225hp cars, I4, I6, V8 and V6 all have about 5 quarts of oil. Does this make sense if you do some math taking into account the specific heat capacity of oil and the power level of these cars? No it doesn't. So why do they all use about 5 quarts? Why do Porsche and BMW and diesels all have closer to 10qts or more?
Answer:
25-30hp is all it takes to push a car at about 65mph down the highway. You need about 5 quarts to handle that heat load. Ever wonder why once the car gets about 1/2 qt low on oil the level drops faster and faster and faster? The reason is that you are exceeding the heat capacity of the remaining oil. As the oil gets hotter more of it becomes entrained in the PCV system and is carried into the engine and burnt off. My mom used to tell me the could "smell when [her] truck was low on oil". This is the exact reason.

Porsche, BMW and Diesel trucks are designed around heavy loads on the oil systems. Thus the higher oil volumes. The rest of the manufacturers assume the car is a daily driver. Porsche knows their cars are usually toy cars. This is why the Subaru manual states "For heavy duty use, use thicker oil" They understand that if you are doing "heavy duty" tasks, you need more protection. Many thicker oils also have a higher heat capacity and the higher viscosity helps keep oil from carrying over into the pcv system, minimizing burn off.

IAT location:
Subaru screwed all of us... in so many ways. The biggest one is our IAT sensor located in the MAF. Total bone job.
Let's follow that air path:
1. Filter
2. MAF/IAT
3. Turbo
4. Intercooler
5. Intake manifold
6. Cylinders

Now lets look at the temperatures:
1. Potentially ambient
2. same
3. Heated by turbo under boost
4. Cooled by intercooler
5. Warmed by intake manifold
6. Heated by combustion chamber

How much does the turbo heat the air? Well it depends on boost level, compressor efficiency etc. So there is no way to know for sure.

How much does the intercooler cool the air? Well that depends on intercooler construction(dimensions, volume, core size, fin density), intercooler location and available airflow as well as the difference in temperature from the charge air to the cross flow air. So no way to know.

How much does intake manifold heat the air? Those values are known and programmed into the ecu unless you add spacers or remove coolant from the throttle body.

How much does the chamber affect it? Those values are somewhat known.
So what's the last place we can take a reading and get the best representation of air entering the engine? Post intercooler.

What happens to the engine during a 4th gear pull? Intercooler gets hot, exhaust gets hot, air entering the engine bay gets colder as speed increases. Air entering the MAF reads colder as speed increases. However, as the intercooler heat soaks, the air entering the engine gets hotter. SO now the ecu is doing the OPPOSITE of what it should be doing. As temp drops, it adds timing when in fact, it should be removing timing to protect the engine.

Ever wonder why so many of my customers tell me they spun a rod while trying for a top speed run?

Oil capacity,
IAT location.
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Old 12-15-2012, 04:14 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post
Got a link to these graphs and charts? I would love to see them as I'm curious how they measured shear strength and film thickness. Many small oil blenders estimate High Temp High Shear because the test is so expensive. .
wish I did. I saw the test rigs, some of the tests and all the results in person.

The oil names were hidden, but when I saw one set of results I recognized the failure mode of our buckets and said "oh, that's mobile 1". The old crusty guy running the test looked up in amazement and said "Yeah. how did you know?" in a British accent. I explained the failures that I've seen with engines running mobile 1 and that graph clearly showed why. When he realized I actually had a bit of a clue about the tests, oils and their practical uses he then divulged a bit more information on the types of oils and the brands.
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Old 12-15-2012, 04:18 PM   #55
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Another thing many people don't realize is that new oil is DIRTY. It's scary how dirty some of it is. Cut open a bottle before you pour it and look at how much metal flake and dirt is at the bottom of a brand new bottle of oil.

Not all bottles have metal in them, but many do. The amount varies and I can only imagine that it depends on the condition of the filters, pumps and purifiers at the time the oil was bottled.

It really will blow your mind.
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Old 12-15-2012, 04:22 PM   #56
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Great post Maxwell (#53)

Few things. I was told by the machine shop that the journals where the main bearings sit are of 3 different sizes. We had planned to machine the inner case matting surfaces and line-bore the block,.. but they didn't have the ability to do this.

Do you have a special line-bore setuup to do these blocks? Or were they mistaken?

Any ideas on why the journals open up? is it that the case is aluminum,.. and not sturdy enough to take 450+ crank hp long term?


I do WOT pulls from 3rd to redline in 5th all the time,.. often a dozen of them within 20 minutes. When I track my car it spends perhaps 55% of the time at full throttle,... for 25 - 30 min sessions. At Grattan and Mid-Ohio it is common to come out of a turn mid way through third gear and be full throttle all the way to redline in 5th (145 indicated on a 6-speed trans with a 13% taller 4th gear and an 8% taller 5th).

perhaps I need an EVO? (cast-iron inline block)
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Old 12-15-2012, 05:01 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by DuckStu View Post
Great post Maxwell (#53)

Few things. I was told by the machine shop that the journals where the main bearings sit are of 3 different sizes. We had planned to machine the inner case matting surfaces and line-bore the block,.. but they didn't have the ability to do this.

Do you have a special line-bore setuup to do these blocks? Or were they mistaken?

Any ideas on why the journals open up? is it that the case is aluminum,.. and not sturdy enough to take 450+ crank hp long term?


I do WOT pulls from 3rd to redline in 5th all the time,.. often a dozen of them within 20 minutes. When I track my car it spends perhaps 55% of the time at full throttle,... for 25 - 30 min sessions. At Grattan and Mid-Ohio it is common to come out of a turn mid way through third gear and be full throttle all the way to redline in 5th (145 indicated on a 6-speed trans with a 13% taller 4th gear and an 8% taller 5th).

perhaps I need an EVO? (cast-iron inline block)
I'm not saying it's going to certainly fail, but if you think the engine is happy with all that, you're kidding yourself. You probably have enough time in between pulls for coolant temp to reduce oil temp sufficiently to help protect the motor. Plus you have an STi. Let's not forget that the USDM EJ205 is a total pile of garbage.

Three different sizes?
no.
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Old 12-15-2012, 05:17 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
This thread is mostly about spun bearings on stock motors with bolt-ons. For that reason most of my points refer to those cars.

When stating 4th gear pulls I was referring to 5MT WRXs. I don't do 4th gear pulls on the dyno, I refuse too unless they're over 450whp. 6MT cars are 4th gear pulls on the dyno.
My reasons:
1. They are soooooo long and the load is so high
2. The engines can't handle it because of #3
3. The oil system is too small
4. 3rd gear goes to 95mph. If I'm tuning for faster than that on a street car, how representative is my tune going to be?
5. IAT sensor placement is detrimental to our engines in high gears.
If you're doing over 95 on the highway full throttle... I got nothing for you.


Let's touch on those above points a little more:
1. Speaks for itself
2. The engines are not designed for that kind of sustained load. The piston materials, ring gaps etc are not designed to do Stage 3 power levels for that long.
3. Less than five quarts. How many cars have about 5 quarts of oil? Almost all of them. The 160hp cars, the 135hp cars, the 225hp cars, I4, I6, V8 and V6 all have about 5 quarts of oil. Does this make sense if you do some math taking into account the specific heat capacity of oil and the power level of these cars? No it doesn't. So why do they all use about 5 quarts? Why do Porsche and BMW and diesels all have closer to 10qts or more?
Answer:
25-30hp is all it takes to push a car at about 65mph down the highway. You need about 5 quarts to handle that heat load. Ever wonder why once the car gets about 1/2 qt low on oil the level drops faster and faster and faster? The reason is that you are exceeding the heat capacity of the remaining oil. As the oil gets hotter more of it becomes entrained in the PCV system and is carried into the engine and burnt off. My mom used to tell me the could "smell when [her] truck was low on oil". This is the exact reason.

Porsche, BMW and Diesel trucks are designed around heavy loads on the oil systems. Thus the higher oil volumes. The rest of the manufacturers assume the car is a daily driver. Porsche knows their cars are usually toy cars. This is why the Subaru manual states "For heavy duty use, use thicker oil" They understand that if you are doing "heavy duty" tasks, you need more protection. Many thicker oils also have a higher heat capacity and the higher viscosity helps keep oil from carrying over into the pcv system, minimizing burn off.

IAT location:
Subaru screwed all of us... in so many ways. The biggest one is our IAT sensor located in the MAF. Total bone job.
Let's follow that air path:
1. Filter
2. MAF/IAT
3. Turbo
4. Intercooler
5. Intake manifold
6. Cylinders

Now lets look at the temperatures:
1. Potentially ambient
2. same
3. Heated by turbo under boost
4. Cooled by intercooler
5. Warmed by intake manifold
6. Heated by combustion chamber

How much does the turbo heat the air? Well it depends on boost level, compressor efficiency etc. So there is no way to know for sure.

How much does the intercooler cool the air? Well that depends on intercooler construction(dimensions, volume, core size, fin density), intercooler location and available airflow as well as the difference in temperature from the charge air to the cross flow air. So no way to know.

How much does intake manifold heat the air? Those values are known and programmed into the ecu unless you add spacers or remove coolant from the throttle body.

How much does the chamber affect it? Those values are somewhat known.
So what's the last place we can take a reading and get the best representation of air entering the engine? Post intercooler.

What happens to the engine during a 4th gear pull? Intercooler gets hot, exhaust gets hot, air entering the engine bay gets colder as speed increases. Air entering the MAF reads colder as speed increases. However, as the intercooler heat soaks, the air entering the engine gets hotter. SO now the ecu is doing the OPPOSITE of what it should be doing. As temp drops, it adds timing when in fact, it should be removing timing to protect the engine.

Ever wonder why so many of my customers tell me they spun a rod while trying for a top speed run?

Oil capacity,
IAT location.

most cars do over 95mph at the drag strip mine did and it was only a 2.slow with a vf39

as far as nightmares i started out by wanting to build a "race car" so i yanked out my perfectly good ej20 and sold it. i had a blown up ej25, sent the crank out to get it turned bought the oversized bearing had a machine shop do all of my measurements then i put it together myself ran great for 500 miles, tore it down to find that most of my bearings didn't have enough clearance, so i did it again this time with a new crank i actually just got it all back together yesterday went to work this morning and the turbo took a **** and sent a bunch of metal through the engine hoping it doesnt **** anything up
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Old 12-15-2012, 05:24 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by 03wrxyllw View Post
................., sent the crank out to get it turned bought the oversized bearing had a machine shop do all of my measurements then i put it together myself ran great for 500 miles,
The stock crankshafts are hardened and nitride coated. If you have them turned,... you are cutting this part off. I would guess 500 - 1,000 miles would be the expected lifespan after turning an OEM crank.

Sux though.
.
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Old 12-15-2012, 07:42 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by 03wrxyllw View Post
most cars do over 95mph at the drag strip mine did and it was only a 2.slow with a vf39
:
oooooooooh.


come on man. You think I don't freakin' know that. I should know better than to contribute to any f'n thread on this site. Everyone tries to poke holes in every little tiny thing.

Well I got news for you. I have tuned thousands upon thousands of cars. My policies are as they are because they work and they're accurate.

For now on, I'll tune cars like they're drag cars, just for you and because 1% of the cars life is spent at the drag strip. That makes perfect sense
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Old 12-15-2012, 08:00 PM   #61
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Maxwell Power please keep posting and ignore the dingbat comments, there are many on this site like myself who really appreciate and learn from guys like you
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Old 12-15-2012, 08:18 PM   #62
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I just got a compression test last week and everything was perfect! I set up an appointment this monday to do my timing belt, yay! As I am driving home today I hear a strange clanking.... I am told it could be a spun bearing......FML
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Old 12-15-2012, 09:40 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
wish I did. I saw the test rigs, some of the tests and all the results in person.

The oil names were hidden, but when I saw one set of results I recognized the failure mode of our buckets and said "oh, that's mobile 1". The old crusty guy running the test looked up in amazement and said "Yeah. how did you know?" in a British accent. I explained the failures that I've seen with engines running mobile 1 and that graph clearly showed why. When he realized I actually had a bit of a clue about the tests, oils and their practical uses he then divulged a bit more information on the types of oils and the brands.

OK...so mobil 1....but WHICH particular oil...there are MANY different 'mobil 1' motor oils and they all have different formulas and properties

THAT is one big issue with them and using it....buy the WRONG one and get **** oil...buy the RIGHT one and get GOOD oil
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Old 12-15-2012, 09:42 PM   #64
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I just got a compression test last week and everything was perfect! I set up an appointment this monday to do my timing belt, yay! As I am driving home today I hear a strange clanking.... I am told it could be a spun bearing......FML

and what oil...EXACTLY was in it????
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:28 PM   #65
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THAT is one big issue with them and using it....buy the WRONG one and get **** oil...buy the RIGHT one and get GOOD oil
Isn't the only 1/2 way descent Mobil 1 product the "Extended Performance" with the gold cap?
.
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:02 AM   #66
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Isn't the only 1/2 way descent Mobil 1 product the "Extended Performance" with the gold cap?
.

no.....the 5w40 trruck and suv is GREAT oil and the 0w40 isnt bad and the EP ones are ok, too

and the 10w40 racing 4T is really good to mix a quart of with your rotella t6
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Old 12-16-2012, 10:49 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power

wish I did. I saw the test rigs, some of the tests and all the results in person.

The oil names were hidden, but when I saw one set of results I recognized the failure mode of our buckets and said "oh, that's mobile 1". The old crusty guy running the test looked up in amazement and said "Yeah. how did you know?" in a British accent. I explained the failures that I've seen with engines running mobile 1 and that graph clearly showed why. When he realized I actually had a bit of a clue about the tests, oils and their practical uses he then divulged a bit more information on the types of oils and the brands.
Sounds like a Timken machine which is the same that Royal Purple uses in their marketing. A Timken machine is used to test Extreme Pressure additives in gear oil and RP is the only company that uses this gimmick. Keep in mind that oil formulations are always changing. The current Mobil1 oils have been out for only about a year.

-Dennis

Last edited by bluesubie; 12-16-2012 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 12-16-2012, 11:00 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckStu

Isn't the only 1/2 way descent Mobil 1 product the "Extended Performance" with the gold cap?
.
EP is still Resource Conserving but is a little better than the regular oil. Basically the easiest thing to do is to pick an oil that is not GF5. That goes for ANY brand. Here's a chart showing Mobil1 zinc levels and some of the specs:

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...duct_Guide.pdf

Note that M1 10W-30 High Mileage meets Euro ACEA A3 specs like GC does. The High Mileage oils are basically the old school oils and meet the old API SL spec because of higher ZDDP levels. Resource Conserving oils are designed to provide the best fuel economy which is why no RC oil can meet European specs. No girly man oils are allowed in European cars!

-Dennis
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:32 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post

Sounds like a Timken machine which is the same that Royal Purple uses in their marketing. A Timken machine is used to test Extreme Pressure additives in gear oil and RP is the only company that uses this gimmick. Keep in mind that oil formulations are always changing. The current Mobil1 oils have been out for only about a year.

-Dennis
It was not the Timken machine. How can it sound like it if I didn't describe it ?
I have seen the timken machine in action many times: duralube, rp and Schaeffer's. This machine was much more complex. I couldn't even begin to describe it other than two moving plates, oil feed, temperature control, gauges...
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:34 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty View Post

OK...so mobil 1....but WHICH particular oil...there are MANY different 'mobil 1' motor oils and they all have different formulas and properties

THAT is one big issue with them and using it....buy the WRONG one and get **** oil...buy the RIGHT one and get GOOD oil
Just the standard mobile 1 as far as I know.
I'm going to look at the link blue posted as soon as I'm not on my phone.
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:56 PM   #71
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I'm in the middle of a tear down and rebuild for a spun bearing as well. My question to those of you that have done this is what are you using to clean out the parts that you will be reusing? Engine degreaser or some kind of part cleaner?
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:05 AM   #72
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It was not the Timken machine. How can it sound like it if I didn't describe it ?
I have seen the timken machine in action many times: duralube, rp and Schaeffer's. This machine was much more complex. I couldn't even begin to describe it other than two moving plates, oil feed, temperature control, gauges...
I said Timken because it's easily portable. If it wasn't a machine used in ASTM testing, then there may not be much merit to the results IMO. Over at bitog, guys from a Russian forum have posted links for some "tests" burning oil in a glass container proclaiming some oils were no good. They also posted some info that Motul 300V 0W-40 was a Group III oil based on a spectrum exam. To many people, the tests looked very impressive, but someone else that has actually worked for a company that makes ester base stocks for the big oil companies basically said both tests were meaningless.

-Dennis
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:19 AM   #73
DuckStu
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Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post
I said Timken because it's easily portable. If it wasn't a machine used in ASTM testing, then there may not be much merit to the results IMO. Over at bitog, guys from a Russian forum have posted links for some "tests" burning oil in a glass container proclaiming some oils were no good. They also posted some info that Motul 300V 0W-40 was a Group III oil based on a spectrum exam. To many people, the tests looked very impressive, but someone else that has actually worked for a company that makes ester base stocks for the big oil companies basically said both tests were meaningless.

-Dennis
They may be trying to see what amount of heat the oil will stand with the first test.

Conventional oil has a fairly short life-span at 280 F,... perhaps 300-500 miles. At 300 F it's life-span is well under 1 minute.

A true synthetic will go to 300 and back and still be servicable.

In a car with a turbo,... this is important. Taking some oils to 305 F and then sending the oil out to Blackstone is a good idea. And you have to be sure they're all heated the same.

Most of the additive packages in our cars are broken down by 500 miles anyway. High heat, acids and water in the blow-by,... etc.
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Old 12-21-2012, 05:53 PM   #74
bluesubie
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Originally Posted by DuckStu View Post
Most of the additive packages in our cars are broken down by 500 miles anyway. High heat, acids and water in the blow-by,... etc.
Not really. Even when an oil experiences permanent viscosity shear, there is little change to the additive level.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...2726793&page=1

-Dennis
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:33 PM   #75
03wrxyllw
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[quote=Maxwell Power;38713047]oooooooooh.


come on man. You think I don't freakin' know that. I should know better than to contribute to any f'n thread on this site. Everyone tries to poke holes in every little tiny thing.

Well I got news for you. I have tuned thousands upon thousands of cars. My policies are as they are because they work and they're accurate.

For now on, I'll tune cars like they're drag cars, just for you and because 1% of the cars life is spent at the drag strip. That makes perfect sense

wow seems a little excessive but on wasnt trying to get you all wound up was just stating the wayi use my car
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