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Old 01-04-2013, 06:24 AM   #101
Uncle Scotty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonDrums View Post
Cool deal. Sounds like you also don't buy into the Mobil1 hate. Then again, the 0W-40 is a different oil than the off the shelf Mobil1 5W30 sold here in the US from what I understand. My old college roommate used to order Mobile1 0W40 and Castrol Syntec 0w40 from Germany for his swapped Miata.

I think I'll stick with T6 and switch to a good 10W-40 for the summer. I actually religiously use a engine block heater and was sitting in my car the full 8 min to get it fully warm most of the time before driving. I was paranoid about the piston slap from the forged pistons so I don't mind going thicker and waiting things out.

based on the above....i dont think you really understand oil and lubrication

there is no possible need to switch oil if you are using the t6 and using a block heater and warming the engine for 8 minutes is excessive unless the temperature is -30* or lower, especially with a block heater....in fact this is likely harmful rather than helpful


maybe you should do some more research before you end up doing things you dont need to or shouldnt do
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:16 AM   #102
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MAF sensors age due to you heating a wire up cooling it and heating it constantly. It breaks down like a filament in a bulb does due to the reactions that happen when you pump voltage through something metal.

Platinum may be tough but it is not perfect or magic. That said, I cleaned my MAF at 70k after scaling it a few times and had to rescale completely after, as things were WAY off.

Coming from VW 1.8T land, i've learned to soak them in a sandwich bag with 91% isopropyl then blow them out with compressed air very gentle like.

Also, my SOHC 2.5i has nice cooked exhaust valves, and was running quite lean for a while on a stock tune even. Likely due to a dirty MAF. I'm scared to compression test it :x

Another good tip, pull your o2 sensor out and use a propane torch to burn the carbon layer off of it. Don't melt it, but you can get it hot enough fairly quick to clean it.
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Old 01-04-2013, 03:47 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
If you're running Cobb maps I wouldn't be worried. If you're running someone else's I might be. There are a lot of self proclaimed tuners out there who have almost no education and hardly any experience that sell maps.

The factory tune is not very good because they had to make the car run dangerously lean to pass emissions standards.

The biggest factor is YOU. How you treat the car plays the largest role in the longevity of the motor.
*If you rape on it before it's fully warmed, then you're the one screwing the car up.
*If you come in hot and shut it down immediately without letting it idle down for a while, you're at fault.
*If you're doing 4th and 5th gear highway pulls then you're abusing the car.
*If you're late on your oil changes or use crappy oil, you're damaging the engine.
No amount of tuning can compensate for idiot owners.
I have always wondered this myself

Quote:
Originally Posted by car_freak85 View Post
Please elaborate.... Aren't you doing a 4th gear highway pull every time you make a pull on the dyno or hit a long straight on the track? I don't understand how this is bad enough for the engine to cause damage.

Yes, there will be a huge load in those gears at those speeds, but wtf?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaddMax View Post
I think these two are the most important to consider.

1) Don't beat on your motor until the oil is fully warmed and at the right visocity. This can take typically around 10 minutes.

2) High load, high gear pulls can be dangerous if your motor experiences a dangerously lean condition and knock. The reason being more boost is generated in these gears and it takes longer to accelerate through the rpm band which means there's more time for potential problems to damage the motor. In the lower gears, the motor quickly accelerates through the rpm band and any fueling and knock issues, while possibly present, don't have quite the time or potential to wreck the motor as easily. Less boost, power, and load (due to torque multiplication of the tranny) is realized as well.

And I guess the answer is, is that their is to much "load" on the engine once you step up the power and get rid of the factory tune (stg 2)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
This thread is mostly about spun bearings on stock motors with bolt-ons. For that reason most of my points refer to those cars.

When stating 4th gear pulls I was referring to 5MT WRXs. I don't do 4th gear pulls on the dyno, I refuse too unless they're over 450whp. 6MT cars are 4th gear pulls on the dyno.
My reasons:
1. They are soooooo long and the load is so high
2. The engines can't handle it because of #3
3. The oil system is too small
4. 3rd gear goes to 95mph. If I'm tuning for faster than that on a street car, how representative is my tune going to be?
5. IAT sensor placement is detrimental to our engines in high gears.
If you're doing over 95 on the highway full throttle... I got nothing for you.


Let's touch on those above points a little more:
1. Speaks for itself
2. The engines are not designed for that kind of sustained load. The piston materials, ring gaps etc are not designed to do Stage 3 power levels for that long.
3. Less than five quarts. How many cars have about 5 quarts of oil? Almost all of them. The 160hp cars, the 135hp cars, the 225hp cars, I4, I6, V8 and V6 all have about 5 quarts of oil. Does this make sense if you do some math taking into account the specific heat capacity of oil and the power level of these cars? No it doesn't. So why do they all use about 5 quarts? Why do Porsche and BMW and diesels all have closer to 10qts or more?
Answer:
25-30hp is all it takes to push a car at about 65mph down the highway. You need about 5 quarts to handle that heat load. Ever wonder why once the car gets about 1/2 qt low on oil the level drops faster and faster and faster? The reason is that you are exceeding the heat capacity of the remaining oil. As the oil gets hotter more of it becomes entrained in the PCV system and is carried into the engine and burnt off. My mom used to tell me the could "smell when [her] truck was low on oil". This is the exact reason.

Porsche, BMW and Diesel trucks are designed around heavy loads on the oil systems. Thus the higher oil volumes. The rest of the manufacturers assume the car is a daily driver. Porsche knows their cars are usually toy cars. This is why the Subaru manual states "For heavy duty use, use thicker oil" They understand that if you are doing "heavy duty" tasks, you need more protection. Many thicker oils also have a higher heat capacity and the higher viscosity helps keep oil from carrying over into the pcv system, minimizing burn off.

IAT location:
Subaru screwed all of us... in so many ways. The biggest one is our IAT sensor located in the MAF. Total bone job.
Let's follow that air path:
1. Filter
2. MAF/IAT
3. Turbo
4. Intercooler
5. Intake manifold
6. Cylinders

Now lets look at the temperatures:
1. Potentially ambient
2. same
3. Heated by turbo under boost
4. Cooled by intercooler
5. Warmed by intake manifold
6. Heated by combustion chamber

How much does the turbo heat the air? Well it depends on boost level, compressor efficiency etc. So there is no way to know for sure.

How much does the intercooler cool the air? Well that depends on intercooler construction(dimensions, volume, core size, fin density), intercooler location and available airflow as well as the difference in temperature from the charge air to the cross flow air. So no way to know.

How much does intake manifold heat the air? Those values are known and programmed into the ecu unless you add spacers or remove coolant from the throttle body.

How much does the chamber affect it? Those values are somewhat known.
So what's the last place we can take a reading and get the best representation of air entering the engine? Post intercooler.

What happens to the engine during a 4th gear pull? Intercooler gets hot, exhaust gets hot, air entering the engine bay gets colder as speed increases. Air entering the MAF reads colder as speed increases. However, as the intercooler heat soaks, the air entering the engine gets hotter. SO now the ecu is doing the OPPOSITE of what it should be doing. As temp drops, it adds timing when in fact, it should be removing timing to protect the engine.

Ever wonder why so many of my customers tell me they spun a rod while trying for a top speed run?

Oil capacity,
IAT location.
LOTS of good info here. Maxwell Power, thanks for all the info, it would be awesome if you were MY local shop

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrx1392 View Post
is it true that a 2005 2.0 wrx crank will oil better than the 2003 ? and i assume it fits? trying to get a game plan going .
I heard that Subaru did the upgraded crank starting on the 04 2.0L wrx.....something, something where they drilled holes in the crank so it could have better oiling in the upper rpms than what the 02-03 2.0L had.
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Old 01-04-2013, 04:34 PM   #104
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the new crank part number ends in 240. It has cross drilled mains that are 45 degrees off the normal oiling. In theory this should provide an oil signal to the rod bearings that is more steady.
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Old 01-04-2013, 04:40 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
the new crank part number ends in 240. It has cross drilled mains that are 45 degrees off the normal oiling. In theory this should provide an oil signal to the rod bearings that is more steady.
Do you know if this crank supercedes the older one? I bought a new shortblock last year and would be PISSED if I got an out of date, crappy crank when a better version existed...
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:03 PM   #106
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The only thing about Max's latest post is the thing about the IAT wire being located in the MAF. The MAF by it's own operation MUST have a temperature wire at the point of measurement to derive the amount of air moving through that point in the system. Our cars simply use that wire to determine IAT because the MAF sensor already has that reading.

What should be done is having a separate sensor in the manifold to measure manifold air temp due to the car being turbocharged. The MAF still needs the temp reading at it's location to function.
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:06 PM   #107
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Some good info here, I agree we need updated stickies & a rebuild ur motor sticky
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:12 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonDrums View Post
The only thing about Max's latest post is the thing about the IAT wire being located in the MAF. The MAF by it's own operation MUST have a temperature wire at the point of measurement to derive the amount of air moving through that point in the system. Our cars simply use that wire to determine IAT because the MAF sensor already has that reading.

What should be done is having a separate sensor in the manifold to measure manifold air temp due to the car being turbocharged. The MAF still needs the temp reading at it's location to function.
NO SIR!
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:15 PM   #109
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IAT wire is in no way wired into the MAF reading. the fact that it's a hot wire system already compensates for IAT.

Also, most ECU have all Zeros in the IAT compensation for MAF reading tables.
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Old 01-05-2013, 02:55 AM   #110
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nobody ever wanted to believe me when i told them the safest tunes pull timing at the top end at high load
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:50 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty View Post
nobody ever wanted to believe me when i told them the safest tunes pull timing at the top end at high load
It must be your smooth and humble delivery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
Why do Porsche and BMW and diesels all have closer to 10qts or more?... Porsche, BMW and Diesel trucks are designed around heavy loads on the oil systems. Thus the higher oil volumes. The rest of the manufacturers assume the car is a daily driver. Porsche knows their cars are usually toy cars.
Guys drop thousands on bling HP mods and push the WRX until it explodes. But you hardly see anyone spend the money on a dry sump system.

I've learned a lot from this thread, keep it coming.
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:56 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by dead_eye View Post
It must be your smooth and humble delivery



Guys drop thousands on bling HP mods and push the WRX until it explodes. But you hardly see anyone spend the money on a dry sump system.

I've learned a lot from this thread, keep it coming.
trying to make a street car motor be a race car motor almost never works

using a race motor on the street can work quite well and has.....like the porsche motors do...but that aint cheap

ive seen people spend $100k+ on subarus and keep on keepin on....blowin them up time and time again

too many idiots tryin to polish turds out there....


and idiots dont understand smooth and humble....they too stupid to know what is goin on anyway
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Old 01-06-2013, 01:19 PM   #113
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dry sump systems are not required for a street car making 650hp. Proper engine assembly and oil pump selection combined with the right oil is all that is needed.
The problem is that too many shops out there are getting paid to put engines together that don't have a real clue what it really takes to do things right. These aren't V8's. You can get away with a lot when your power density is 1/2 and your rod bearing surface area is 4x and main bearing surface area is 2x what ours is. In these tiny little motors, with their tiny little bearings, you need everything to be spot on.
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:02 PM   #114
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I Searched this forum as well as IWSTI in-general. I searched Google. However, I still cannot be certain this is not a re-post, but I'm going to post it anyway because this has more oil information, in one place, that I believe applies to our cars, than any other one I'm familiar with.

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles

This link is about oils, in general. People can determine for themselves what is appropriate for their cars and their use. While its primary focus is performance oils for high dollar performance cars, IMO it also speaks to our community and this thread as well.

If the OP or Maxwell Power (or bluesubie) thinks this does not belong in this extremely important thread, I will edit/delete it.
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:10 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeeeeYa View Post
I Searched this forum as well as IWSTI in-general. I searched Google. However, I still cannot be certain this is not a re-post, but I'm going to post it anyway because this has more oil information, in one place, that I believe applies to our cars, than any other one I'm familiar with.

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles

This link is about oils, in general. People can determine for themselves what is appropriate for their cars and their use. While its primary focus is performance oils for high dollar performance cars, IMO it also speaks to our community and this thread as well.

If the OP or Maxwell Power (or bluesubie) thinks this does not belong in this extremely important thread, I will edit/delete it.
No sense in deleting it as it contains some very good info about oil flow, but I don't always agree with everything he writes. I just always like to add the caveat that the author is a surgeon and drives exotics around Florida (a lot of times just as a grocery getter). He also does uoa's about every 1,000 miles, his cars have huge sumps, and he generally does not run oil that you can buy at Wal-Mart.

Last time I saw, he ran this:
http://renewablelube.com/
They have/had a 0W-30 that was actually custom blended for him.

Sometimes it isn't always about the viscosity but about the oil formulation. That's why a bitog member used to run a 0W-10 in a Jeep without any issues. The oil was custom blended and was not something that anyone could buy and isn't something that would qualify for API/ILSAC specs.

Hmm, what oil to run in a Rolls Royce Ghost?

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=2468340

-Dennis

Last edited by bluesubie; 01-07-2013 at 08:20 AM.
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:50 AM   #116
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Thanks, bluesubie.

I'll stick with GC and 3k OCI. It is my firm belief that a synthetic of this quality changed every 3k mi is all it takes for a DD. UOAs seem like asking her if it was good for her, too. Do it right and move on.

That said, even with good oil changed often, there are other factors that can lead to failed bearings. It would be great if Maxwell Power, while having already mentioned any number is his great posts, would specifically state his own list of advice for keeping our motors out of rebuild threads.

Please?
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Old 01-08-2013, 06:53 PM   #117
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ok i ordered a new oem 2005 crank ,sti rods Cosworth "0" sized main bearings and standard rod bearings,new oil pump and oil cooler .im going to barrow the ness. mics to measure every thing .the mains oil clearance are suppose to be .0004 to .0014 man thats tight hope it works ...a costly lesson for sure. does any body have a manule with the rod bearing clearances? i tried to order a "hynes manule for the impreza wrx ...but they dont make one ???i find that hard to believe.
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:05 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty View Post
based on the above....i dont think you really understand oil and lubrication

there is no possible need to switch oil if you are using the t6 and using a block heater and warming the engine for 8 minutes is excessive unless the temperature is -30* or lower, especially with a block heater....in fact this is likely harmful rather than helpful


maybe you should do some more research before you end up doing things you dont need to or shouldnt do
That's the purpose of this thread!

I am just making sure that I didn't misunderstand anything or have bought into any bad advise elsewhere and trying to get others to document their experiences in one thread so we all can learn together exactly what does and does not work for preventing and repairing rod-bearing failures.

By the looks of it, I've done everything right and can't blame anyone but the shop that built my engine for the failure. If you want to know who that shop is, PM me, I won't trash talk on the public forum.

Now, I just want to do the job myself RIGHT so it doesn't happen again.
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:36 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by BrandonDrums View Post
That's the purpose of this thread!

I am just making sure that I didn't misunderstand anything or have bought into any bad advise elsewhere and trying to get others to document their experiences in one thread so we all can learn together exactly what does and does not work for preventing and repairing rod-bearing failures.

By the looks of it, I've done everything right and can't blame anyone but the shop that built my engine for the failure. If you want to know who that shop is, PM me, I won't trash talk on the public forum.

Now, I just want to do the job myself RIGHT so it doesn't happen again.
Do you have extremely accurate (.0001") mic's and bore gauges? Without them, you can't do it right.
If so, do you know how to use them?
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:09 PM   #120
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I'm actually swapping in a stock STI long block in and to rebuild the failed engine I'm having a friend who's got the tools and experience to help me through it here and there.

I'm also considering buying all of the gauges myself but the machine shop I'm working with said they will also measure and verify all the clearances and label the parts for me so I can assemble it.

That's down the road, for now I'm just looking to do the proper maintenance on the engine I'm swapping in to prevent another bearing failure and I'll take my time to clean and re-assemble the current engine correctly which has forged weisco pistons in it. I might outsource some of the assembly if I find out I don't have the ability to fully measure and verify the bottom end. Depending on the condition of the block since this will be it's 2nd rebuild, I might just send the re-usable parts to a reputable builder and have them assemble the engine with a new block and with new rings.

Time will tell, I'm really more interested in prevention at the moment.

Last edited by BrandonDrums; 01-09-2013 at 02:14 PM.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:17 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonDrums View Post
I'm actually swapping in a stock STI long block in and to rebuild the failed engine I'm having a friend who's got the tools and experience to help me through it here and there.

Time will tell, I'm really more interested in prevention at the moment.
The bore guage you (or your friend) will need costs something like $1,000

Plasti guage or dial calipers wion't do the trick. They are only accurate to 1-2 thousandts,... and you need to be within 1-2 ten thousandts, and be able to reliably repeat the readings.

I believe the main bearing clearances are supposed to be .0018 (that's 1.8 thousandts). With mine we set them at 2 thousandts. (5W40 Total Quartz in the winter, 10W50 Total summer / racing. I also run a 19-row Setrab oil cooler.


This step is the absolute key to these engines. The loading per square inch on these bearings (higher power levels) is WAY high compared to normal engines,.... WAY high compared to a ZR1 vette. You need perfect bearing clearances on the rods and mains expecially to have any hope of long term survival. And perhaps even closed deck block (I;ve had cylinders go conical on me,.. requiring pistons, boring etc).
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:28 AM   #122
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Is there any known source for motors built to this degree of precision, including OEM shortblocks bought off-the-shelf?
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:13 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeeeeYa View Post
Is there any known source for motors built to this degree of precision, including OEM shortblocks bought off-the-shelf?
Yes. We do.
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:17 AM   #124
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We also have a build your engine program.
You pay a small fee on top of your engine price and you come to the shop on the scheduled days. We teach you how to use the equipment, how to measure everything (over one hundred measurements on the short block alone), how to blueprint, how to balance (but you don't get to balance it), and then you assemble it with us.
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Old 01-13-2013, 02:23 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
We also have a build your engine program.
You pay a small fee on top of your engine price and you come to the shop on the scheduled days. We teach you how to use the equipment, how to measure everything (over one hundred measurements on the short block alone), how to blueprint, how to balance (but you don't get to balance it), and then you assemble it with us.
While I am not contributing any useful information to this thread I thought I might chime in for MPS support.

I just finished a long block with MPS and decided to participate in the build program. Besides being a great time it was quite informative. MPS uses a good set of new Fowler gauges (bore gauges, micrometers etc) for blue-printing. A similar set (good manufacturers include Fowler, Mititoyo, Brown and Sharp) should always be used for blue-printing.

The program allows you to learn as much or as little as you choose, Craig is a very patient individual and will answer any of your questions. It also allows you to get a feeling for assembly best practice(s) and provides insight into the details which need to be observed.

I should probably post a vendor review about my experience but if any of you are curious about the program drop me a PM. Pretty cool program.

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