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Old 01-13-2013, 08:29 PM   #126
Maxwell Power
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boring.nut View Post

While I am not contributing any useful information to this thread I thought I might chime in for MPS support.

I just finished a long block with MPS and decided to participate in the build program. Besides being a great time it was quite informative. MPS uses a good set of new Fowler gauges (bore gauges, micrometers etc) for blue-printing. A similar set (good manufacturers include Fowler, Mititoyo, Brown and Sharp) should always be used for blue-printing.

The program allows you to learn as much or as little as you choose, Craig is a very patient individual and will answer any of your questions. It also allows you to get a feeling for assembly best practice(s) and provides insight into the details which need to be observed.

I should probably post a vendor review about my experience but if any of you are curious about the program drop me a PM. Pretty cool program.
Did you ever finish the time lapse video?
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Old 03-04-2013, 11:36 PM   #127
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awesome thread.... currently doing some troubleshooting on a potential rod-bearing issue and this thread has given me many good insights
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:50 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by justinh View Post
awesome thread.... currently doing some troubleshooting on a potential rod-bearing issue and this thread has given me many good insights
Glad to hear it helps! There was no single thread anywhere with a list of failures causes and successful rebuild follow ups before. Be sure to write up a little about your failure: how it happened, how it was diagnosed and fixed and of course the outcome.

Anything we can help with? The easiest thing is to look for flake in the oil. Drain the oil, if you see golden flakes that will confirm.
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:45 PM   #129
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Did you ever finish the time lapse video?

I haven't finished it yet, and I probably won't finish it until my car is put back together. I just ordered my ETS kits and should have the car in working order come end of the month! So hopefully I'll finish the timelapse then.
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:54 PM   #130
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Maxwell Power,... question...

Do you think it would be better to start with a block that's already stretched at the mains,.. and then have the middle decked and the main journals line-bored.... as opposed to just using a new block?

The reason I ask is that most high-hp builders (non Subaru) preffer seasoned blocks. They'll start off with a 100K block and machine virtually everything. The idea being the stresses are out of it by this time and whatever will stretch or contract has finished doing so.

In F1 for instance,.. turbo motors started out with Renault,.. they used old car blocks. Same with BMW. They would strip down a high mileage BMW 2002 block,.. leave it outside in the rain and snow for months,.. and then build a 1.5 liter engine capable of making 1,400 hp in qualifying trim.

Aren't new blocks simply going to stretch at the mains like every used block you've measured?

And is there a chance that a "seasoned" block won't? (or at least do it less?)
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Old 03-06-2013, 07:29 PM   #131
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Sadly adding to the list......

2004 Wrx 132,000 miles
Stage something... Ecutek dyno tuned, VF30, Spearco tmi, pinks, intake, 3" catless ex., p/p ex. manifold, original clutch FYI

Castrol Syntec 10w-30 changed every 4k miles

mostly daily driver the past 5 years

noticed a valve tick sounding noise at 3k rpm and had subaru dealer diagnose.

read this thread last night and made me wonder why i didn't check my oil every time i filled up and put a new MAF in it every year. should've i guess.

looking at a ver. 8......... wish i could be excited about it.
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:04 PM   #132
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Maxwell Power,... question...

Do you think it would be better to start with a block that's already stretched at the mains,.. and then have the middle decked and the main journals line-bored.... as opposed to just using a new block?

The reason I ask is that most high-hp builders (non Subaru) preffer seasoned blocks. They'll start off with a 100K block and machine virtually everything. The idea being the stresses are out of it by this time and whatever will stretch or contract has finished doing so.

In F1 for instance,.. turbo motors started out with Renault,.. they used old car blocks. Same with BMW. They would strip down a high mileage BMW 2002 block,.. leave it outside in the rain and snow for months,.. and then build a 1.5 liter engine capable of making 1,400 hp in qualifying trim.

Aren't new blocks simply going to stretch at the mains like every used block you've measured?

And is there a chance that a "seasoned" block won't? (or at least do it less?)
I never sleeve a new block for this reason.
I always run the mains on the tight side on a new engine to compensate for the enlarging that occurs.
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:33 PM   #133
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So ive been picking through this trying to figure out what brand/viscosity oil to run in my '13 wrx i just ordered. What has worked best for you maxwell?
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:17 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
I never sleeve a new block for this reason.
I always run the mains on the tight side on a new engine to compensate for the enlarging that occurs.
Right,.. but the mains on my engine for instance were between 2.5 and 3.5 thousandths,... and I read where you had them as big as 4 or more.

Correct clearance being 1.6 or 1.8,... No way to run them tight enough to compensate for that much growth. Some of them would be negative numbers. And no way to know which ones were likely to grow the most.
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:06 AM   #135
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Right,.. but the mains on my engine for instance were between 2.5 and 3.5 thousandths,... and I read where you had them as big as 4 or more.

Correct clearance being 1.6 or 1.8,... No way to run them tight enough to compensate for that much growth. Some of them would be negative numbers. And no way to know which ones were likely to grow the most.
I had them at 4? I've never built an engine with 4 thou.
I must be misunderstanding you.

Are you saying that I have measured used blocks with new bearings and they were as large as 4?
That would be true. However, different bearings have different thickness between manufacturers. I've never installed new factory main bearings. And unfortunately, I was unable to measure them with the bearings that came out. So the amount of growth is unknown. The point that I was making is that you can't just throw them together without checking and expect the correct clearances because they almost never come in on used blocks.
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:23 AM   #136
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So ive been picking through this trying to figure out what brand/viscosity oil to run in my '13 wrx i just ordered. What has worked best for you maxwell?
stock driven easy 5w30
Stock driven hard and stage 2 5w40
Over stage two driven hard or tracked with no aftermarket oil cooler 5w40, 5w50 or 15w50 depending on measured parameters.
These are obviously generic answers as each situation may be a little different.
I can't see anyone going wrong with 5w40 on the stock motor unless they over heat the oil very badly.
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Old 03-07-2013, 09:10 AM   #137
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Based on my own, decades old, experience building race engines, with this thread as an anchor, only those with very very deep pockets with resources to throw away on a personal goal, should build HIGH horsepower Subaru engines. Every minute such an engine runs is another gone from a very finite number of minutes such engines have.

What I built were iron blocks, and always from a high-mileage old seasoned block. Even then torque plates were necessary as was complete blueprinting. Virtually nothing was left unmachined. Even with that cylinders ovaled, and motors were rebuilt regularly if record-level performance was expected.

By comparison, Subaru engines are plastic. Even with the best build practices, including the use of seasoned blocks, the result is a plastic engine you can damage with a pen knife. Aluminum is part of the failure Subaru engines represent in higher horsepower applications. The other is the unrealistic expectations of ignorant people who have lost touch with reality and think you can get between 100 and 200 horses per cylinder, reliably, from a plastic engine. Not.

So to me, some of the conversation should revolve around REALISTIC horsepower expectations that show the finite, inverse, relationship between horsepower and life-span... the MTBF of any configuration. Too many approach such builds with unlimited enthusiasm but with myopic forethought and UNrealistic expectations. In any case, however well done, the results will always be the same. Subaru engines are not nor ever were meant to be built to race AND be reliable.

As is, this thread is a version of a soap opera. Lots of operating room drama... but few will come away with more than knowing which doctor they would choose. No one will learn to operate who does not already know. It will take a serious condensation of the exposed facts in the initial post with an accurate bibliography, and sticky status, to give it objective value.
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:45 AM   #138
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Based on my own, decades old, experience building race engines, with this thread as an anchor, only those with very very deep pockets with resources to throw away on a personal goal, should build HIGH horsepower Subaru engines. Every minute such an engine runs is another gone from a very finite number of minutes such engines have.

What I built were iron blocks, and always from a high-mileage old seasoned block. Even then torque plates were necessary as was complete blueprinting. Virtually nothing was left unmachined. Even with that cylinders ovaled, and motors were rebuilt regularly if record-level performance was expected.

By comparison, Subaru engines are plastic. Even with the best build practices, including the use of seasoned blocks, the result is a plastic engine you can damage with a pen knife. Aluminum is part of the failure Subaru engines represent in higher horsepower applications. The other is the unrealistic expectations of ignorant people who have lost touch with reality and think you can get between 100 and 200 horses per cylinder, reliably, from a plastic engine. Not.

So to me, some of the conversation should revolve around REALISTIC horsepower expectations that show the finite, inverse, relationship between horsepower and life-span... the MTBF of any configuration. Too many approach such builds with unlimited enthusiasm but with myopic forethought and UNrealistic expectations. In any case, however well done, the results will always be the same. Subaru engines are not nor ever were meant to be built to race AND be reliable.

As is, this thread is a version of a soap opera. Lots of operating room drama... but few will come away with more than knowing which doctor they would choose. No one will learn to operate who does not already know. It will take a serious condensation of the exposed facts in the initial post with an accurate bibliography, and sticky status, to give it objective value.
You are correct. That's why it is so important to do it right. You can't just slap these things together hoping for great results.
They are a very weak platform. (Largely due to engine geometry even more than being aluminum)Which it's a real bummer because the rest of the car is very stout (STi). We still love them and pour our time and money into them.
At mps we've had very good results, but we're aware that the power density is too high to expect them to last forever.

In the end though, how much fun would it be if it wasn't a challenge? If any schmuck could build one, there would be no accomplishments. Every day my brain turns and turns, wrapped around the eternal question "how can I make this better? " I honestly believe that we have made a difference. Our record is untouchable by any other builder in the country.

I also build ls powered v8's. Those are much easier to make power, get good gas mileage and a lot of miles. My 9.5:1, 6.3l ctsv on 4.5 psi has 502whp/556wtq and gets 22mpg. I'm putting a more efficient blower cam in it that should increase my mileage to 26, lower my torque and raise my hp. Small displacement Subaru engines just can't compete with that.
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:55 AM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
stock driven easy 5w30
Stock driven hard and stage 2 5w40
Over stage two driven hard or tracked with no aftermarket oil cooler 5w40, 5w50 or 15w50 depending on measured parameters.
These are obviously generic answers as each situation may be a little different.
I can't see anyone going wrong with 5w40 on the stock motor unless they over heat the oil very badly.
thanks man ill run 5w40, only mods i plan on doing are, CBE,Up-pipe,DP,Cobb Stage 2
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:05 PM   #140
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It sounds a lot like we're trashing subaru engines. The problem with subaru engines is that you CAN slap a huge turbo and make tremendous horsepower but it's a 2.5L four cylinder engine.

ANY small displacement 4 banger getting 20+ psi rammed into it driving a 3300lb awd monster will be unreliable. Yes, an EVO ironblock 2.0L ain't quite as quirky but it's a balance.

Subaru engines are great for making fairly reliable 300-350 wheel horsepower which isn't bad for a block that weighs 150 lbs and sits about 10'' from the ground.
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:39 PM   #141
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my 03 bugeye stock 2.0 ran a tuboxs "stage 4" 18g set up when it hit 100,000 miles, and it gave out around 190,000 miles. no knocking or anything, just misfiring on all 4 cylinders.. think i may of bent the valves or blown the hg's it was boost spiking to over 25 psi at the end and i didnt know about it, i think there good motors for the most part. I was making 309 to the wheels.
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:25 PM   #142
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i read through this more, and in the new 2012+ models you can void your warrantly by running heavier oil?!? wtf! im almost tempted to just go with spt cbe, short shifter, and a couple gauges to monitor everything. But it sounds like running a cobb ots stage 1 or 2 map is better for the engine bc it increases the fuel? I just want to know what is best. But then again i dont want to void my warranty.
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:07 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonDrums View Post
It sounds a lot like we're trashing subaru engines. The problem with subaru engines is that you CAN slap a huge turbo and make tremendous horsepower but it's a 2.5L four cylinder engine.

ANY small displacement 4 banger getting 20+ psi rammed into it driving a 3300lb awd monster will be unreliable. Yes, an EVO ironblock 2.0L ain't quite as quirky but it's a balance.

Subaru engines are great for making fairly reliable 300-350 wheel horsepower which isn't bad for a block that weighs 150 lbs and sits about 10'' from the ground.
Not true.

I have full proof in that I did a complete tear down of a 180,000 mile iron block VW 1.8T that had a 3076 strapped on it by myself at 170k. I daily drove the car mixing 50/50 E85 and 93 letting the ECU adapt out without a proper tune, (5 wire factory and semi smart controllers) it also ran 21-25psi with me beating on it like I hated it. Redline constantly once warm, plenty of 2 step (with actual ignition in the turbine housing/inlet and no lift shift type action which is similar but less intense).

The thing BARELY BARELY needs to be bored over, the stock rods are dead straight, the bearings were peachy and the thing could have kept going until it finally had enough blowby to warrant a rebuild.

I tore it down to swap it from a dead bent 2002 Jetta to my 98 B5 Audi A4 1.8T where it will live on with forged slugs, coated bearings, beefy I beam rods and is now a seasoned block that has had time to settle.

Then again, forged crank factory, mahle cast pistons with grafal coating factory, closed deck beefy iron block factory, MLS headgasket factory, etc. etc.
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:56 PM   #144
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05 obxt
118,200
Rod Bearing failure on #4
I'm assuming the previous owner over revved it one to many times I bought it with a bad bearing ( if I told ya what I payed you'd poop)

Upon tear down noticed scoring on the driver side exaust cam journal.

After an acid bath and some machine work I plan to replace the bearings with acl bearings, wiesco .10 over rings, high pressure oil pump. Having the scored cam journal polished to prevent any further damage.

I'll keep ya posted
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:27 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Sneeky Pete View Post
05 obxt
118,200
Rod Bearing failure on #4
I'm assuming the previous owner over revved it one to many times I bought it with a bad bearing ( if I told ya what I payed you'd poop)

Upon tear down noticed scoring on the driver side exaust cam journal.

After an acid bath and some machine work I plan to replace the bearings with acl bearings, wiesco .10 over rings, high pressure oil pump. Having the scored cam journal polished to prevent any further damage.

I'll keep ya posted
just be sure to run a 10mm pump.
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Old 03-13-2013, 04:21 PM   #146
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Maxwell Power. Thanks for all the info.

So what I've gathered. 5w-30 bad if you add any extra HP regardless of what the new spec is from Subaru(makes sense to me as I ran T6 in my 08 without issue for 50k at stg 2). I need to be back to t6 after my breakin period(500m on the car presently) as I am going stg 2 on the new rex and I should be adding an oil Cooler to boot due to the limited oil capacity.

Sound about right or am I missing something?
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Old 03-13-2013, 04:28 PM   #147
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basically.

But overall it's about heat load and the ability of the oil to hold up to the heat load and maintain viscosity at the higher heat loads.
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Old 03-13-2013, 05:03 PM   #148
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Its hard to find a thicker than 40w oil at any auto parts store. I plan to run a 50w oil in the summer.
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Old 03-13-2013, 05:52 PM   #149
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interesting. I find 5w-50 all over around here...

must be a NY thing. You guys can't have big bottles of soda either or more than 7 bullets in a magazine. NY should change their moto "New York, where bigger is never better. In fact, it's illegal."
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:40 PM   #150
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just be sure to run a 10mm pump.
Bigger is not better? Heh...
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