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Old 09-02-2012, 11:57 PM   #1
adirunnerpmc
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Member#: 216617
Join Date: Jul 2009
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Clarksville, TN
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
PSM

Default Data Log Help please. Concerned about Turbo...

Hello all,

I'm stumped as of right now, so I'm turning to my NASIOC family for some input. I am going to post up the link of two 3rd gear LOGs that I pulled earlier in the week. I will try to get you guys one more tomorrow also.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...nhNdmxmdWNpQXc

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...kRSR19vaDRqTUE

**It feels as if my turbo falls on its face when trying to build boost**
**MOD list at bottom of the page**

I recently went with a major overhaul on my car. I am e-tuned by a reputable tuner, but he is assuring me that it isn't the map. This is where I turn to my friends on here. I am afraid that my turbo is going out.

I am running a FP 18g 7cm on my EJ205. Motor is strong with good compression. The pre turbo exhaust is all Grimmspeed with no leaks. I have done numerous vaccuum checks with no results. I know that the 18g isn't the fastest spooling turbo on the 2.0's but mine feels off. When first spooling it sounds/feels great. Where it should be building full boost 3700-5300 it almost feels as if someone sticks my air filter under water. The turbo falls on its face and then feels like a normal turbo from 5300 all the way to redline STRONG! The turbo area smells like a SLIGHT amount of burnt oil after running hard but no leaks. I have pulled off my Intercooler and only a tiny bit of oil at the compressor exit. The experience is worse in higher gears. In 5th gear the car pretty much tries to die and I have to let off of the gas.

Any input would be greatly aprreciated.


MODS:
Genuine Subaru EJ205 Block = 60K miles (Gates Racing Timing Belt)
Andrewtech Built 2005 5 Speed = 40k miles (Exedy Stage 1 HD Clutch)
COBB V2 AccessPort = AP-SUB-001
FP 18G 7cm Turbo 2.4 inlet (This is the one the the 16G Housing)
DW 850cc Injectors
Walbro 255lph Fuel Pump
Perrin V1 Fuel Rails
Grimmspeed 3 port EBCS
Grimmspeed LW Crank Pulley
Grimmspeed Ported Manifolds
Grimmspeed X-Pipe
Grimmspeed Up Pipe
Turbo XS 3in Downpipe - No CAT's
SRS 3in CATBACK w/ Resonator
K&N Typhoon Intake
AMR Hard Turbo Inlet
K&N Typhoon Intake (New Filter)
Process West Top Mount Intercooler
JDM STi Hood Scoop
Grimmspeed Ported Intake Manifold
Grimmspeed TGV Deletes
Mishimoto Aluminum Radiator
NGK Iridium Spark Plugs STOCK HEAT RANGE (NEW)
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:22 PM   #2
jebjkey
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2005 STi
2006 Evolution MR

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Why does it take you so long to go WOT; 3800 RPM first log and 5300 RPM second log??? Try putting your foot to the floor sooner, maybe you will find the power you seek (after other problems are fixed).

What is up with your AFR's; I do not know how you have not blown up your engine already!!!
There are no wide band AFR readings in these logs to confirm with, but if the stock sensor is reading that lean then you have a BIG problem. First thing, do not boost your car unless ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY until you find the source of your AFR problem. Intake leak pre-turbo but post-MAF is one possible source for going lean; or a bad MAF calibration for the K&N intake, or a bad MAF sensor is also possible. Do not be surprised it your K&N intake is screwing things up. I would put a stock intake back on, at least for troubleshooting purposes to see if there is any change. As long as the install is correct, there should not be any issues with the AMR hard turbo inlet, but the silicon couplers should be checked/inspected.

Your A/F Learning is pulling a little fuel while you are in Closed loop, but ~+/-3% is just fine so there does not seem to be a problem there. Big assumption here is that your stock A/F and MAF sensors are good - they could be one/two of your problems. Of course, the intake could be the problem also, hence the recommendation above.

22# boost on an 18g and only pulling 240g/sec of air at high RPM - I do not think so. My stock VF39 (and my old 04 WRX w/ VF30) pulls at least 260g/sec of air at high RPM at significantly lower boost. MAF V seems too high for the g/sec logged, but I cannot remember what my WRX MAF V values were. I know that on my STi, 4.46-4.50 V is what I get at high RPM and that equates to 260-275g/sec, not 240g/sec. See above issues for recommendations.

Your DAM is all over the place; probably mostly as a result of the highly variable and mostly too lean AFR's causing problems.

What is your target boost curve? You did not log WDC and boost error so it is hard to tell if you have boost creep and where you are in realtion to your target boost. It looks like boost creep, but without seeing WDC and knowing your target boost, I cannot say. It might fell like your car comes alive after 5300 RPM because boost starts taking off around that RPM and you just went WOT. Hard to say since it takes you soooooo long to go WOT and we do not know what your target boost and WDC are it is impossible to make any accurate comparisons.

Not too sure about the Perrin fuel rails, are they parallel or series? With your AFR's all over the place, I would check the setup just to be sure. If your install is wrong, your FPR may not be able to do its job correctly; this will change your "effective injector size" making you go lean or rich depending which way fuel pressure goes - down or up. Although I am sure that many people use Perring fuel rails without problem, you may not be so lucky.

You need to look for leaks everywhere in your intake. Most likely place based on some of the indications would be between the MAF sensor and the turbo. Also check all vacuum lines and boost control lines for any cracks, etc..

Reset your AP to the default logging parameters and take a datalog from ~2000 RPM to redline (at WOT the entire time) after you check on the above recommendations.

Where is your tuner in all of this? All you are getting from them is, "The map is fine."? They should be helping you to locate them problem, at least providing some insight as to what they think might be bad. The only way they might really know that the map is fine is if they have tuned a lot of 02/03 WRX's with the same mods and have always ended up with VERY - VERY similar maps. If this is the case, they should be experienced enough to guide you in the right direction, you are paying them after all.
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Old 09-03-2012, 08:44 PM   #3
adirunnerpmc
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Member#: 216617
Join Date: Jul 2009
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Clarksville, TN
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
PSM

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Thank you for your response and the help that you have provided.

New LOG:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...1VGc3hESjJYdnc

** Short Notes: Car now shows being in 6th gear on the AP all the time, no matter gear, Even though I have a 5spd. AFR seems to be better, but the turbo is still not pulling as much air as it should. **

Regarding the WOT issue: I have had the pedal to the floor on every single pull. I've been noticing this also. I will be trouble shooting my Cables as well as the TPS.

Regarding AFR's: I found a leak in my EVAP system, and Re-Adjusted a few things and it seems that I have gotten that to a more stable condition.

Regarding the Intake: The tuner was well aware of the intake when he made the map. (Please see below regarding him) I also know that Cobb usually never has a problem with the K&N intake, but I will look closer at that. Newest run seems to have thta a little more stable

Regarding the Turbo: Seems like it is healthy, but the g/s reading makes me think that it is on its last leg.

Regarding LOG's: These are the only things that the tuner wanted to see. I also made the newest pull before reading your post. I will reset the logs and try to get some more information. Hopefully COBB will have something to input when they see this.

Newest Concerns: During my driving today I started flipping through the rest of my parameters and noticed that my GEAR POSITION is weird. During all of the driving it showed me being in 6th gear. I have a 5spd in my car. It would only notice a flash of every gear. I think this is what is hindering some of my tune. It looked as if my Neutral Safety Switch was working correctly, so I am slightly stumped with this one. I feel like I have my work cut out for me on this one, because after a good bit of searching on NASIOC I haven't seen any reference to this problem.

Regarding the Tuner: "No. Map is perfect." was his resonse to the two LOG's that you have alread seen. I don't want to drop a name, because maybe it is an isolated incident, but I'm against throwing people under the bus. I just don't see how he is regarded as one of (if not the) best E-Tuners available. I am severly dissapointed in him morally and in his work.

Any more help would be amazing!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 09-04-2012, 10:20 AM   #4
Cobb Tuning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adirunnerpmc View Post
Thank you for your response and the help that you have provided.

New LOG:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...1VGc3hESjJYdnc

** Short Notes: Car now shows being in 6th gear on the AP all the time, no matter gear, Even though I have a 5spd. AFR seems to be better, but the turbo is still not pulling as much air as it should. **

Regarding the WOT issue: I have had the pedal to the floor on every single pull. I've been noticing this also. I will be trouble shooting my Cables as well as the TPS.

Regarding AFR's: I found a leak in my EVAP system, and Re-Adjusted a few things and it seems that I have gotten that to a more stable condition.

Regarding the Intake: The tuner was well aware of the intake when he made the map. (Please see below regarding him) I also know that Cobb usually never has a problem with the K&N intake, but I will look closer at that. Newest run seems to have thta a little more stable

Regarding the Turbo: Seems like it is healthy, but the g/s reading makes me think that it is on its last leg.

Regarding LOG's: These are the only things that the tuner wanted to see. I also made the newest pull before reading your post. I will reset the logs and try to get some more information. Hopefully COBB will have something to input when they see this.

Newest Concerns: During my driving today I started flipping through the rest of my parameters and noticed that my GEAR POSITION is weird. During all of the driving it showed me being in 6th gear. I have a 5spd in my car. It would only notice a flash of every gear. I think this is what is hindering some of my tune. It looked as if my Neutral Safety Switch was working correctly, so I am slightly stumped with this one. I feel like I have my work cut out for me on this one, because after a good bit of searching on NASIOC I haven't seen any reference to this problem.

Regarding the Tuner: "No. Map is perfect." was his resonse to the two LOG's that you have alread seen. I don't want to drop a name, because maybe it is an isolated incident, but I'm against throwing people under the bus. I just don't see how he is regarded as one of (if not the) best E-Tuners available. I am severly dissapointed in him morally and in his work.

Any more help would be amazing!!!!!!!!!!
"6" in gear position for the 2.0L ECU is not 6th gear, but indicates neutral. That means that you likely have an issue with your neutral position switch. You can verify by bringing up the nuetral pos. switch on the AccessPORT's live data. It should show 1 in neutral and 0 when you are in gear. If it shows 1 while in gear at any time, you need to start by replacing the sensor.

As far as the boost issue, we really need to see wastegate duty in your logs to see what the ECU is commanding.

You should really get a wideband o2 sensor at this level of modification. You can get one like the AEM UEGO and use the free AccessTUNER software to monitor it (among other support wideband sensors). Your front o2 sensor is showing erratic fueling at WOT. It isn't very accurate at WOT, but it should stay pegged rich (11:1) at high load - when you see if it pull back lean there is likely a major fueling issue here or the sensor is bad.

It appears that you have potentially several mechanical issues here (neutral switch, TPS, fueling). I would get the car in to an experienced Subaru tuning shop and have them do a once-over of the mechanicals. I would not do any more WOT pulls at this point until you get the car checked out.

Bill
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Old 09-04-2012, 11:25 AM   #5
jebjkey
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Member#: 73884
Join Date: Nov 2004
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Naples, ITALY
Vehicle:
2005 STi
2006 Evolution MR

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Throttle Postition:
Try this test: with the engine off but the AP connected, monitor throttle position as you press the accelerator pedal to the floor and release multiple times. Do this both slowly and quickly; does the reading track with the pedal?

With a helper, observe the throttle plate (intercooler needs to be removed) at the same time to see if it is moving as it should with the accelerator pedal. By yourself, you can just twist the throttle plate by hand and put the AP where you can see it to watch the readings and compare them to the actual throttle plate movement.

Boost control tables reference throttle position whereas timing and fuel tables reference load. Whether your throttle position sensor is bad or there is some mechanical problem with the throttle, you will continue to have boost/turbo problems until what ever is wrong is fixed.

This problem might be one reason why you do not feel like the car makes power until 5300RPM since that is where your TPS finally reads 100%. With WDC and boost error in the logs it will be easier to tell what is going on while you are driving but the test above should tell you which part is not working correctly so you can fix it. The test is pretty simple and a new TPS (part number 22633AA210 -- $86.17 on SubaruGenuinParts.com) would be fairly easy to replace if necessary.

AFR and Air Flow:
Your values are better, but they are still very odd. Did you reset your ECU after you corrected the leak and re-adjusted a few things? What did you re-adjust?

To properly monitor AFR's you need a wideband sensor. Unfortunately the AP will not log wideband readings, but you can download AccessTuner Race for free and use your laptop to datalog the same parameters as the AP along with the wideband AFR readings.

It would be interesting see a datalog from highway cruising.

I do not know when you went WOT in the log, but I am going to assume you instantly put the accelerator to the floor at time 0.9 sec (row 6). Ignoring the short bobble while you were still closed-loop, at time 1.78 it looks like you go open-loop and are running really lean until you get over ~3300 RPM. Your load / air flow is pretty low for the amont of boost you have in this area (see below). The turbo seems to start spooling-up about the RPM I would expect for an 18G on a 2.0l in 3rd gear, but it looks like it is being held back. WDC and boost error values help a lot here, but with you TPS problem you might be hitting "target boost" for your "throttle position" and the ECU is giving you exactly the boost it is programmed for. Does not explain the lack of airflow though.

Looking at ~5000 RPM: you have ~16# boost but you are ~100g/sec too low in air flow for what you should have (should be somewhere around 250g/sec). Why??? Another guy that was having turbo problems ended up that his (non-reinforced) silicon turbo inlet was collapsing, restricting his intake. You do not have this issue since you have a different turbo inlet and cannot seem to get air moving to begin with (his thread is here if you want to check it out.) I still recommend that you put the stock intake back on. I would leave the turbo inlet installed, but you want to check it for restrictions and proper installation.

You should seriously look at pulling your turbo to check it out also, you might be able to confirm what you suspect about your turbo. Look for shaft play and any signs of wear on the turbine and compressor fins.

How is your oil level? Any smoke coming from your exhaust?

Gear position:
I would reflash your map and see if it has any effect. It is very wierd that you would get 6th gear when there should not be a 6th gear option in your map tables. Maybe you do not have a gear position table at all (04 WRX uses a 16bit ECU vice a 32bit ECU in the STI and later WRX's) and the data displayed is not based on any actual input??? I have never been a fan of the gear position parameter anyway, I log vehicle speed and use that with the RPM from the datalog to tell me what gear I was in.

Edit:
I noticed that Cobb posted while I was typing my response, some of my post may seem a bit superseded by what Cobb posted.

Last edited by jebjkey; 09-04-2012 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 09-11-2012, 01:25 PM   #6
adirunnerpmc
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Join Date: Jul 2009
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Location: Clarksville, TN
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
PSM

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Just a few updates:

New TPS installed. Awaiting parts (see below) before I test it out. I hit the old with my multimeter and it seemed to have multiple dead spots, as well as incorrect max/min readings.

I did a full out Pressure Test of the Intake system and found my MAF gasket to be leaking. I actually had ordered a NEW MAF so I installed that and the idle and overall feel of the car has greatly improved.
Where as I have not made any WOT throttle pulls, my AFR is looking a lot better. I will continue to troubleshoot that as I get the car into a more driveable state. Wideband has also been ordered.

I have not yet driven the car as I am awaiting a Transmission Harness. After doing some electrical tests, I was able to figure out that when IAG swapped in my AndrewTech 2005 Transmission, they did not swap over my Transmission Harness from my 2002 Transmission. This meaning that the Neutral Safety Switch is reverse polarity from what I need it to be. Thus the car is building incorrect boost tables since it thinks it is in Neutral all of the time. I have a new Backup Sensor, Neutral Safety Switch and Transmission Harness on the way. Should be in my the end of the week.

I will try and have some more logs up before Friday.

Thank you guys again for the help. It is much appreciated.
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Old 09-11-2012, 04:08 PM   #7
mechatricity
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Location: Charlotte, NC
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04 & 06 WRX Wagons
'15 WRX 6MT CWP

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Quote:
Originally Posted by adirunnerpmc View Post
Just a few updates:

New TPS installed. Awaiting parts (see below) before I test it out. I hit the old with my multimeter and it seemed to have multiple dead spots, as well as incorrect max/min readings.

I did a full out Pressure Test of the Intake system and found my MAF gasket to be leaking. I actually had ordered a NEW MAF so I installed that and the idle and overall feel of the car has greatly improved.
Where as I have not made any WOT throttle pulls, my AFR is looking a lot better. I will continue to troubleshoot that as I get the car into a more driveable state. Wideband has also been ordered.

I have not yet driven the car as I am awaiting a Transmission Harness. After doing some electrical tests, I was able to figure out that when IAG swapped in my AndrewTech 2005 Transmission, they did not swap over my Transmission Harness from my 2002 Transmission. This meaning that the Neutral Safety Switch is reverse polarity from what I need it to be. Thus the car is building incorrect boost tables since it thinks it is in Neutral all of the time. I have a new Backup Sensor, Neutral Safety Switch and Transmission Harness on the way. Should be in my the end of the week.

I will try and have some more logs up before Friday.

Thank you guys again for the help. It is much appreciated.
wow, good find. that's a big oops.
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