Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Wednesday December 17, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Engine Management & Tuning > AccessPort

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-03-2012, 10:28 PM   #1
Schrecken
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 241697
Join Date: Mar 2010
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Shark City, CA
Vehicle:
'04 WRX
PSM

Default How's my data? Should I reflash to HWG?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...WhDT21kbE1Kb3c

Stock 2004 WRX except for catless uppipe. Just flashed the newest version(3.10) Stage 1 ACN91 map this morning. I run 91 from Chevron in CA. Live in the Bay Area, so about 100ft above sea level. About 90 degrees today. Driven about 50 miles before this log.

Car has about 108k miles on it but just had timing belt and related service about 1,500 miles ago. As far as I can tell, and my mechanic has said as well, my car is in great mechanical shape.

Wondering what the pros can tell me from this log. Feel free to tell me that I need to go get a new log if this one is incomplete or not properly done. I started at about 2500rpm and nearly redlined in 3rd, shifted and got to about 5k in 4th, then shifted and got to about 4k in 5th. (if I remember correctly)

I noticed from the log that I never had WOT so maybe that's why my boost seems low? Or is this just a case of needing to use the HWG map?

Thanks!!

ps. does needing to run a HWG or LWG map mean something is wrong/worn out or just that cars differ slightly from the factory/environment?
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

Last edited by Schrecken; 09-04-2012 at 03:44 AM.
Schrecken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2012, 01:07 AM   #2
Schrecken
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 241697
Join Date: Mar 2010
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Shark City, CA
Vehicle:
'04 WRX
PSM

Default

Oops sorry had wrong permissions set up.

Should work now!
Schrecken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2012, 11:30 AM   #3
Cobb Tuning
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 4803
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Austin, DFW, Portland, SOCAL
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrecken View Post
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...WhDT21kbE1Kb3c

Stock 2004 WRX except for catless uppipe. Just flashed the newest version(3.10) Stage 1 ACN91 map this morning. I run 91 from Chevron in CA. Live in the Bay Area, so about 100ft above sea level. About 90 degrees today. Driven about 50 miles before this log.

Car has about 108k miles on it but just had timing belt and related service about 1,500 miles ago. As far as I can tell, and my mechanic has said as well, my car is in great mechanical shape.

Wondering what the pros can tell me from this log. Feel free to tell me that I need to go get a new log if this one is incomplete or not properly done. I started at about 2500rpm and nearly redlined in 3rd, shifted and got to about 5k in 4th, then shifted and got to about 4k in 5th. (if I remember correctly)

I noticed from the log that I never had WOT so maybe that's why my boost seems low? Or is this just a case of needing to use the HWG map?

Thanks!!

ps. does needing to run a HWG or LWG map mean something is wrong/worn out or just that cars differ slightly from the factory/environment?
I would make sure the floor mat hasn't migrated under the accelerator pedal. If not, then you may have an issue with the TPS sensor or a mechanical issue with the throttle cable, for example. You'll want to get that fixed before addressing the boost issue. When you do get it fixed, get some additional logs.

Bill
Cobb Tuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2012, 03:53 PM   #4
Schrecken
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 241697
Join Date: Mar 2010
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Shark City, CA
Vehicle:
'04 WRX
PSM

Default

Thank you, Bill!

I'm thinking it's most likely because I have a habit of not really ever actually "flooring" the accelerator pedal. But it's something I'll look at now.

I'll go get a couple new logs today and repost.
Schrecken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2012, 07:14 PM   #5
Schrecken
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 241697
Join Date: Mar 2010
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Shark City, CA
Vehicle:
'04 WRX
PSM

Default

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...0YldpV2c#gid=0

New log, only 3rd gear pull.

Still seeing less than 100% throttle even though I thought I was flooring it. I'll double check my floormat or maybe time to look at my TPS/cable...

Still seeing boost just under 12psi, I feel like that's low at stage 1 even with 95% throttle. I didn't log it but when I pulled in 4th I got up to 13.6psi, so that's a good sign.

Last edited by Schrecken; 09-05-2012 at 06:40 AM.
Schrecken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 04:06 AM   #6
jebjkey
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 73884
Join Date: Nov 2004
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Naples, ITALY
Vehicle:
2005 STi
2006 Evolution MR

Default

Were you already stage 1 or did you just go stage 1 with this flash?
What was your boost at before you flashed in the v3.10 map?
Did you buy your car new or used?
Have you ever done anything with the boost control hoses?
Have you checked the adjustable wastegate actuator to see if it is too loose?

TPS problem or not, 95% throttle should be at target boost, especially if the throttle plate is actually fully open. I believe the boost control tables use 95.2% as the last column. Boost error is ~3# the entire log, at more than 60% WDC you have something wrong. Check the boost control hoses for proper setup / cracking and check to see if the WG actuator is has any tension on it and adjust if necessary.
jebjkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 05:14 AM   #7
Schrecken
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 241697
Join Date: Mar 2010
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Shark City, CA
Vehicle:
'04 WRX
PSM

Default

I flashed stage 1 four days ago using the 3.00 map. Flashed 3.10 map the day I posted this thread. Unfortunately, I didn't check my boost prior to 3.10.

Car was used but 100% stock. Some old guy owned it before me.

Have not touched the boost control hoses and I can check the wastegate actuator in the morning.

What do you mean by boost error?
Schrecken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 06:28 AM   #8
Schrecken
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 241697
Join Date: Mar 2010
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Shark City, CA
Vehicle:
'04 WRX
PSM

Default

I was getting paranoid so I went out and checked the hoses and actuator and both seem normal by sight and feel. But I'm not a mechanic.

Tomorrow I'm going to get a few more logs on my way to and from work and post them up. Also, if necessary I'll take some pictures of the hoses/wastegate when there is more light.

What is a normal wastegate duty cycle for 14psi? (this is stage 1 acn91 target boost)
Also, I still don't understand whether needing to run a HWG or LWG map means something is wrong/worn out or just that cars differ slightly from the factory/environment?
Should I be hitting target boost easily/accurately every WOT pull(in 3rd, 4th, 5th) or is it something that doesn't always happen?
I know Cobb says there is an acceptable variance of 14psi +/-1, but does that mean sometimes I'll boost above 14psi and other times below? In other words, should I always be maxing out at the same psi or is my psi expected to be anywhere between 13-15psi at any given time(during WOT pull).

BTW, thanks a ton to Cobb and jebjkey so far.

Last edited by Schrecken; 09-05-2012 at 06:37 AM.
Schrecken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 10:32 AM   #9
Cobb Tuning
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 4803
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Austin, DFW, Portland, SOCAL
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrecken View Post
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...0YldpV2c#gid=0

New log, only 3rd gear pull.

Still seeing less than 100% throttle even though I thought I was flooring it. I'll double check my floormat or maybe time to look at my TPS/cable...

Still seeing boost just under 12psi, I feel like that's low at stage 1 even with 95% throttle. I didn't log it but when I pulled in 4th I got up to 13.6psi, so that's a good sign.
You are underboosting by about 2-3 psi. It is not uncommon on these cars to need to reflash the high wastegate (HWG) version of the map in order to hit the target. It is also not uncommon to potentially need to shorten the wastegate arm a bit if the HWG map does not get you close enough. I would reflash the HWG map and then get an additional 3rd gear log (if you can do so safely).


Bill
Cobb Tuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 11:56 AM   #10
jebjkey
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 73884
Join Date: Nov 2004
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Naples, ITALY
Vehicle:
2005 STi
2006 Evolution MR

Default

Be careful about saying your car was stock, even if you bought from an old man. I have seen people buy cars that were "stock" but really they were returned to stock. Sometimes all is good, sometimes the return to stock was not done so well and things were put back together wrong - causing obvious problems.

Specifically, there was a guy recently on this board who had a similar issue with boost level on his "stock" used car. Turns out that the car was returned to stock, not stock, and the boost control hoses were installed incorrectly. You can check on Cobb's website for a .pdf about how the boost control system works.

Aside from that, it is very possible that you will be fine once you adjust your wastegate arm (shorten) so that it is properly tensioned. You can try the HWG map first, but if it does not get you to target boost then go back to the normal map and make an adjustment to WG arm (try one turn shorter). Datalog to see where you are. If you need to make another adjustment to the WG arm, go ahead and try another turn (or less, depending on how close to target boost you are at this point). After that I would try the HWG map if you are still not hitting target boost.

I am guessing that your car has be underboosting the entire time you have owned it. You might be in for an extra treat once you get your boost up to target values.
jebjkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 05:08 AM   #11
Schrecken
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 241697
Join Date: Mar 2010
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Shark City, CA
Vehicle:
'04 WRX
PSM

Default

OKAY! Got some new logs today... maybe not the BEST because I was driving to and from work so I couldn't really control traffic conditions in order to do a perfect 2k to redline pull. I had to be somewhat safe even if I was speeding, so I did these pulls when entering the freeway and on interchanges.

Also, the throttle thing seems to be a non-issue, I must have just not been completely flooring it before.

-3rd gear pull then shift to 4th
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...JM2p0SXc#gid=0

-another 3rd gear pull
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...3Q0NtN0E#gid=0

-another 3rd gear pull then shift to 4th
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...vdlFyUlE#gid=0

-4th gear pull
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...3QVl0OWc#gid=0

My best boost numbers are definitely coming in 4th gear. I didn't record it but I got 14.2psi in 4th at one point. Was getting up to 13.6 in 3rd which I think I recorded.

Definitely feeling a little better about these logs then I did before. Maybe my ecu was still learning? Starting to feel comfortable running this map and leaving room for adjustment later by not running the HWG yet. Also since I'm so close now, the HWG would probably put me into overboost range right?

To repeat from my previous post:
What is a normal wastegate duty cycle for 14psi? (this is stage 1 acn91 target boost)
Also, I still don't understand whether needing to run a HWG or LWG map means there's a mechanical problem or just that cars differ slightly from the factory/environment?
Should I be hitting target boost easily/accurately every WOT pull(in 3rd, 4th, 5th) or is it something that doesn't always happen?
I know Cobb says there is an acceptable variance of 14psi +/-1, but does that mean sometimes I'll boost above 14psi and other times below? In other words, should I always be maxing out at the same psi or is my psi expected to be anywhere between 13-15psi at any given time(during WOT pull).
Schrecken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 09:30 AM   #12
Cobb Tuning
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 4803
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Austin, DFW, Portland, SOCAL
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrecken View Post
OKAY! Got some new logs today... maybe not the BEST because I was driving to and from work so I couldn't really control traffic conditions in order to do a perfect 2k to redline pull. I had to be somewhat safe even if I was speeding, so I did these pulls when entering the freeway and on interchanges.

Also, the throttle thing seems to be a non-issue, I must have just not been completely flooring it before.

-3rd gear pull then shift to 4th
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...JM2p0SXc#gid=0

-another 3rd gear pull
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...3Q0NtN0E#gid=0

-another 3rd gear pull then shift to 4th
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...vdlFyUlE#gid=0

-4th gear pull
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...3QVl0OWc#gid=0

My best boost numbers are definitely coming in 4th gear. I didn't record it but I got 14.2psi in 4th at one point. Was getting up to 13.6 in 3rd which I think I recorded.

Definitely feeling a little better about these logs then I did before. Maybe my ecu was still learning? Starting to feel comfortable running this map and leaving room for adjustment later by not running the HWG yet. Also since I'm so close now, the HWG would probably put me into overboost range right?

To repeat from my previous post:
What is a normal wastegate duty cycle for 14psi? (this is stage 1 acn91 target boost)
Also, I still don't understand whether needing to run a HWG or LWG map means there's a mechanical problem or just that cars differ slightly from the factory/environment?
Should I be hitting target boost easily/accurately every WOT pull(in 3rd, 4th, 5th) or is it something that doesn't always happen?
I know Cobb says there is an acceptable variance of 14psi +/-1, but does that mean sometimes I'll boost above 14psi and other times below? In other words, should I always be maxing out at the same psi or is my psi expected to be anywhere between 13-15psi at any given time(during WOT pull).
You are very close to your target - a touch under. The HWG map could put you a bit over. I would stick with the normal wastegate map. The fact that you weren't hitting 100% throttle before could certainly explain why you also were underboosting.

The ECU doesn't learn when it comes to boost control. The boost you see varies by quite a few factors -> throttle position, time you've allowed boost to build, RPM you started at, outside temperature, gear you are in (higher gears will tend to boost higher), barometric pressure, etc. A 3rd gear extended WOT run is a good, consistent run to see how boost control is doing and see how it changes under different conditions. You may see some variation in peak boost (and boost response) even in the 3rd gear run, typically due to outside conditions (especially temperature). But, as long as you are within the +/- 1 psi guidelines (including in higher gears), you are good to go.

There is no "normal" wastegate duty necessarily for a given map. For this ECU, there is a max wastegate duty table which the ECU cannot exceed (after compensations are applied), but actual wastegate duty will vary depending on how close you are to the given target (dynamically adjusts lower if you are over the target, higher if you under the target - up to the max).

It doesn't necessarily indicate a problem if you are underboosting or overboosting. That is why we include the LWG (for overboosting) and the HWG (underboosting) maps. There are a number of mechanical factors (variations between cars) where a given car can respond differently than average. Of course, there are mechanical issues that can cause overboost or underboost, but, generally speaking, these tend to not respond to LWG/HWG map changes.

That said, in your logs you do show some borderline extreme long-term fuel trims (A/F Learning 1). I would keep an eye on those. You may have a fueling issue. Generally these should be within +/- 5%, but you are showing one range as high as 7%. You could have a post-MAF intake tract leak or other issue. You may want to consider getting a pressure/smoke test of the intake tract done. You may also want to clean your MAF sensor.

Bill
Cobb Tuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 03:10 PM   #13
Schrecken
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 241697
Join Date: Mar 2010
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Shark City, CA
Vehicle:
'04 WRX
PSM

Default

Thank you, Bill! I really appreciate you taking the time to give me such a thorough response. It's been a while since I've cleaned my MAF sensor so I'll start there and then start investigating leaks.

Does it mean anything that those 7% ranges were specifically at zero/low throttle and would go away with medium/high/wide open throttle?
Schrecken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 03:27 PM   #14
Cobb Tuning
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 4803
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Austin, DFW, Portland, SOCAL
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrecken View Post
Thank you, Bill! I really appreciate you taking the time to give me such a thorough response. It's been a while since I've cleaned my MAF sensor so I'll start there and then start investigating leaks.

Does it mean anything that those 7% ranges were specifically at zero/low throttle and would go away with medium/high/wide open throttle?
Hard to say - the values aren't always equally precise across all ranges - depends on how much time you spend in that area when the problem is happening. Lower ranges with problems could be more likely a vacuum leak, but hard to rule out anything for sure.

Bill
Cobb Tuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.