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Old 10-14-2012, 01:10 AM   #76
AkumaMotorsports
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I would be very interested in seeing a log of the current state of tune. In order for the PT 67 to make that kind of power on a Mustang, it would require cylinder pressure from somewhere. 21 PSI and conservative timing, on a stock block just does not add up. What duty cycle are the injectors at? Does the VIPEC interpret the MAF readings the same way as the OEM ecu? Is there a way to quantify load versus the stock ECU on the VIPEC?

The stock blocks, especially the 704 castings, do not hold up to that kind of cylinder pressure, it will fail eventually. No tune will keep the stock pistons working properly at a true 500+WHP, it just will not happen. You actually have that on the dyno plot, and I applaud you for that. Many Suby owners think 450 and up can be safe on the stock motor, and it is not the case. Now some dynos, like the Virtual dyno software do reflect high numbers, so that may be contributing to the discrepancies. For example I had a Stage 2 with meth(25PSI) Evo 9 on the dyno and it made 325HP on or dyno, and the VD said 417HP....using the proper template and baro settings.

Mike, please do not take this as a shot at you at all. I am just trying to figure out where the Mustang corrections should be set at. I do not mess with the settings and, from a marketing perspective, it just does not seem to make sense anymore. Having one of, if not the lowest, reading dynos is just not great for setting records...lol Do you have a large correction factor or did you increase the roller weight on the dyno settings?

Thanks for the info, I appreciate it. Maybe we will see you at Watkins for the last round of the Real Time Attack? I am looking forward to running there with the new shop car.

Cheers,

John
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Old 10-14-2012, 05:27 PM   #77
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John, what would you say is the limiting factor of the 704 block? Alot of people are concerned about the stock liners.
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Old 10-15-2012, 09:51 AM   #78
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I really want to hit the drag strip this week, but they're calling for rain all day Friday. I'll keep an eye on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowgenius View Post
Would you attribute part of its current streak to the vipecs abilities and the tune?
Having a high level of control over how the engine is running definitely plays a role in engine life.

In addition to what I do on any ViPec ECU tune, I put o2 and EGT bungs in each runner of the exhaust manifold on this engine. I love data and it allowed me to tune fueling per cylinder. I leave the 4 EGT probes in and run 1 wideband in my downpipe when I'm not on the dyno.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AkumaMotorsports View Post
I would be very interested in seeing a log of the current state of tune. In order for the PT 67 to make that kind of power on a Mustang, it would require cylinder pressure from somewhere. 21 PSI and conservative timing, on a stock block just does not add up. What duty cycle are the injectors at? Does the VIPEC interpret the MAF readings the same way as the OEM ecu? Is there a way to quantify load versus the stock ECU on the VIPEC?

The stock blocks, especially the 704 castings, do not hold up to that kind of cylinder pressure, it will fail eventually. No tune will keep the stock pistons working properly at a true 500+WHP, it just will not happen. You actually have that on the dyno plot, and I applaud you for that. Many Suby owners think 450 and up can be safe on the stock motor, and it is not the case. Now some dynos, like the Virtual dyno software do reflect high numbers, so that may be contributing to the discrepancies. For example I had a Stage 2 with meth(25PSI) Evo 9 on the dyno and it made 325HP on or dyno, and the VD said 417HP....using the proper template and baro settings.

Mike, please do not take this as a shot at you at all. I am just trying to figure out where the Mustang corrections should be set at. I do not mess with the settings and, from a marketing perspective, it just does not seem to make sense anymore. Having one of, if not the lowest, reading dynos is just not great for setting records...lol Do you have a large correction factor or did you increase the roller weight on the dyno settings?

Thanks for the info, I appreciate it. Maybe we will see you at Watkins for the last round of the Real Time Attack? I am looking forward to running there with the new shop car.

Cheers,

John
John,

Yup it's going to break. It's inevitable. It just hasn't happened yet. Running this much power on a stock shortblock isn't the only thing we do on this car that we would never recommend.

I bought it stock for about 900 bucks from a dealer and it became my don't try this at home car. We used a meth setup to inject more than double the fuel being provided to run 30+ psi on a stock engine for a while in 2006 and never broke it. Back then it was also the first car I tuned for E85 and we ran it with no intercooler at 33 psi for months on a GT35R and found the limit of 3 transmissions and 2 rear ends with it, compared lag of an FMIC to no intercooler, etc. Then I ran ran 40 something pounds of boost at the last event to find the limit of a stock EJ22T. It sat from 07 until this year while we focused on other projects and thought of some new things to test. We sorted out some important cooling system changes, have a dry sump system working that we're really happy with, relocated the turbo, swapped drive by wire into an older chassis, and converted to an aftermarket master/slave clutch setup. Those things all worked out great. The water to air IC setup I wanted to try isn't working for long enough so we're still tweaking that and may go back to air to air for next year because I actually want to do some racing rather than just testing in 2013.

In terms of how much power we're actually making, we run high 9 to low 10 second 1/4 mile passes at this power level on DOT tires with our customer Jason's Impreza. I'm confident it's over 450 wheel HP on your dyno. As mentioned in this thread the heads/cams aren't stock. We don't need to run much boost to make a lot of power. We have the drag car trapping close to 150 mph on a 6262 at 28 psi. I focus on efficiency and went further with that on this car than we have been allowed to thus far on the drag car.

That said, this year I finally stopped being stubborn and made our Mustang dyno read close to Cobb's. I know you're one of the few left that's super low. Ours used to read about the same as yours from what I can tell. We built a Supra that made over 200 more HP on a Dynojet than our dyno on the old settings earlier this year. The big difference was confusing the heck out of too many customers and upsetting some for no good reason. Knowing we were one of a handful left, it was time to change. If you want to shoot me an email or give a call I'll tell you exactly what I did. I had to think about it for a while because the way some other shops are doing it is really screwing up the readings as well as the way the car is being loaded by the eddy current unit.
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:18 AM   #79
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People dont realize the huge factor of good tuning. All the parts or lack there of mean nothing if the tune isnt on time.

It might hang in there a while longer. I do think when it lets go it will just lose compression from a ringland and start to have lots of blow by. I think youll be able to use the block and crank again...at least hopefully it doesnt end to badly.
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:33 AM   #80
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John since you're relatively close to Pittsburgh, and I plan on running the Vipec also, i wanted to ask you how you like tuning the Dual AVCS heads with the Vipec?


Thanks,

James
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:59 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stretchedk7 View Post
People dont realize the huge factor of good tuning. All the parts or lack there of mean nothing if the tune isnt on time.

It might hang in there a while longer. I do think when it lets go it will just lose compression from a ringland and start to have lots of blow by. I think youll be able to use the block and crank again...at least hopefully it doesnt end to badly.
If it's a piston that goes I expect to catch it in time. If a rod fails it will become an expensive experiment.

Slowgenious in case you're asking me, ViPec controls AVCS nicely.
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Old 10-15-2012, 12:22 PM   #82
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yes seems vipec and sivecs have become popular.

And hopefully it just cracks a ringland.
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:02 PM   #83
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Doh! I got you mike from innovative and john from akuma mixed up. My next step after the motor is finished is to purchase the Vipec, I will need the V88 standalone because i built a dual avcs 2.5 motor for an 04 WRX.
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:31 PM   #84
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Sounds good. This car has a V88 as well since we wired the car from scratch.
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Old 10-15-2012, 02:06 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innovative Tuning View Post

That said, this year I finally stopped being stubborn and made our Mustang dyno read close to Cobb's. I know you're one of the few left that's super low. Ours used to read about the same as yours from what I can tell. We built a Supra that made over 200 more HP on a Dynojet than our dyno on the old settings earlier this year. The big difference was confusing the heck out of too many customers and upsetting some for no good reason. Knowing we were one of a handful left, it was time to change. If you want to shoot me an email or give a call I'll tell you exactly what I did. I had to think about it for a while because the way some other shops are doing it is really screwing up the readings as well as the way the car is being loaded by the eddy current unit.
I'm in this position right now. I've been tuning more GT-R's and Corvettes lately and people are always confused/disappointed with their numbers because they're used to seeing all the inflated numbers out there. Its getting very hard to stay stubborn and keep my calibration where it is. Very frustrating...

-- Ed
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Old 10-15-2012, 02:16 PM   #86
Innovative Tuning
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I hear you. You and Akuma were the only shops I could think of left with super low numbers when I made the change this year.
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Old 10-15-2012, 02:32 PM   #87
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if everyone didnt inflate it would be so much eaisier to understand and mentally compare cars. as it is, the numbers usually dont mean jack anymore!!
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Old 10-15-2012, 02:48 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innovative Tuning View Post
We checked the leakdown after this event and it actually got better on a couple cylinders. The stock hone and ring combo takes a while to break in even when running the engine hard.

If it stays in good shape I'd like to leave it alone and keep it as a spare, but I will take pictures and bore measurements at a minimum when we put a built shortblock in. If it's at all questionable when we leakdown test it before pulling it, we'll tear it down and detail everything.

I'd do the leak down twice on each cylinder Also put a breaker bar on the crank wiggle it slightly then do the leak down again! This will move any possible broken ring lands into a spot where they will more likely leak. Simply setting at TDC and doing the leak down won't always show you the truth. I noticed this when my stock block finally seen ring land issues.
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Old 10-15-2012, 02:51 PM   #89
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good point ^
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Old 10-15-2012, 02:54 PM   #90
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We already tested every cylinder in two positions. They're all good for now. I'm also monitoring crankcase pressure and what comes out the breather system.
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Old 10-15-2012, 03:12 PM   #91
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sweeeet. i think it will be during a long time at full boost. Maybe one day the motor gets run before everything is hot or something, bad tank of gas...
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Old 10-15-2012, 04:35 PM   #92
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Quote:
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I hear you. You and Akuma were the only shops I could think of left with super low numbers when I made the change this year.
Mike,

What % change would you say you made? Roughly 15%?

-- Ed
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Old 10-15-2012, 04:44 PM   #93
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Exactly 15% in AWD mode. 526 wasn't my highest pull by the way.
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Old 10-15-2012, 05:14 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innovative Tuning View Post
Exactly 15% in AWD mode. 526 wasn't my highest pull by the way.
Makes perfect sense. I run a .85 CF on ours to get it to read what it does. I still think its wrong, but maybe in 2013 I'll turn off the CF and shoot for the stars like everyone else .

It will take some getting used to seeing such high numbers!

-- Ed

Last edited by Equilibrium Tuning; 10-15-2012 at 05:20 PM.
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Old 10-15-2012, 06:42 PM   #95
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Ive told Mike last year about some prospective customers up here in Canada that did not want to go to him for a tune merely on the fact that his dyno read to low and wanted to go to a shop that had the higher reading one just to get that big number.

I was amazed that they didnt care if it was a quality tune or not they just wanted the number to be as high as possible.

Kids today
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:27 PM   #96
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Sorry for the delay on the response. My wife and I are expecting our firs child any day...actually we are going in tomorrow for delivery. So I have been spread a little thin..lol

Mike-
Thanks for reading the post constructively, it is hardy to convey tone in a forum post. If you are running 9's or 10's I would say the numbers work out.

You know, this industry has gotten so frustrating. I see shop after shop posting CRAZY numbers and guys giving credit to that type of advertising. Shops have not had to give any proof to back up claims on numbers. A dyno has gone from a tuning tool to a marketing tool. No one asks about injector size in relation to duty cycle...airflow..VE or anything else that can reach beyond a dyno number. A guy with an STI that has 775cc injectors on an AEM intake an a 20G makes 500WHP and does not pin the voltage on the MAF or the injectors....hummm you do the math...lol

Anyway, I am done bitching..LOL

I a think you made a very smart decision on the numbers/correction. I would love to see some pics of the builds...they sound pretty crazy. We have a dry sump in our shop car as well. I am looking forward to starting it this week.

I will def. send you an email. Keep up the good work!

I will see if I can chime in on the other posts later/tomorrow before we go to the hospital.

Thanks guys.
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:37 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium Tuning View Post
Mike,

What % change would you say you made? Roughly 15%?

-- Ed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Innovative Tuning View Post
Exactly 15% in AWD mode. 526 wasn't my highest pull by the way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium Tuning View Post
Makes perfect sense. I run a .85 CF on ours to get it to read what it does. I still think its wrong, but maybe in 2013 I'll turn off the CF and shoot for the stars like everyone else .

It will take some getting used to seeing such high numbers!

-- Ed
I know debating dyno numbers is kind of silly, but from what I'm reading above, aren't your numbers the ones that are "wrong"? If you purposely set a 0.85 CF and then your numbers are 15% lower than everyone else, then it seems pretty obvious that you could simply turn off the correction and get numbers that line up with everyone else.

What is the point of setting low numbers (on purpose) if the CF is being manipulated to do so? Why not just run CF=1? Is there some sort of "standard" you are measuring against? I know you always quote power vs. trap speeds, but how did you determine that the correlations you post are the "right" ones?

Don't take this post the wrong way. These are actual questions I have. I really would love to see some sort of standard out there, but I have no idea what is "right". To a newbie like me a stock STI should be 220-240WHP or so (based on the various dyno charts I've seen). Seeing people with dyno's that are sub 200WHP just seems like something is wrong to me.
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Old 10-16-2012, 01:45 AM   #98
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Ed set up his dyno to read like his road dyno software to keep his hp #'s and traps consistent with all his old work.
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Old 10-16-2012, 09:00 AM   #99
Innovative Tuning
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There are lots of threads about varying dyno numbers. If you want to continue that discussion you're welcome to post in the thread we made when we updated ours or the other threads about it.

Akuma good luck with the baby!

Here's a picture of my white car by a customer's 05 STI at a test at TMP.


Last edited by Innovative Tuning; 10-16-2012 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 10-16-2012, 09:28 AM   #100
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Quote:
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I know debating dyno numbers is kind of silly
It is, so stop.
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