Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Monday December 22, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > News & Rumors > Non-Subaru News & Rumors

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-04-2012, 12:58 PM   #1
AVANTI R5
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 73805
Join Date: Nov 2004
Default Rough idle problem hits Scion FR-S, Subaru BRZ coupes



Quote:
Toyota and Subaru are grappling with reports of rough idle and stalling conditions on their new sporty coupes.The problems on initial batches of the Subaru BRZ coupe and its Scion FR-S twin--known as the Toyota FT-86 outside the United States--is being caused by a software mapping glitch.

Toyota Motor Corp. and Subaru, a unit of Fuji Heavy Industries, developed the sporty cars jointly. And except for some badging and front fascia differences, they are basically clones.

Toyota and Subaru officials say the problem is simply a software bug and that there is no mechanical defect.
But some owners of the coupes disagree, saying the suggested fix hasn't kept the problem from recurring.

Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons said that when the engine control unit (ECU) is installed, it adapts to the car's powertrain and owner's driving patterns, a process known as adaptive learning. Within 100 miles, those settings are basically frozen in the ECU.

With the Scion FR-S and Subaru BRZ coupes, some of the software coding that allows the ECU to establish a "handshake" with the engine is in error. The ECU monitors certain driving conditions, and when the engine is found to be out of tolerance, the software picks up an anomaly.

When this happens, the ECU triggers a fault code. As the ECU tries to find an optimal driving condition outside its prescribed tolerances, a rough idle or stalling situation ensues. Typically, the check engine light illuminates and a fault code of P0019 shows up on diagnostic readers.

Toyota's fix: If the car has less than 100 miles on it, a technician will reflash the ECU with the correct software mapping. If the car has more than 100 miles, the mechanic should replace the ECU.

"It does involve the variable valve timing but it does not involve a mechanical repair," Lyons said. He said the rough idle is the result of the ECU's attempting to work around its detection of the anomaly, rather than what is triggering the fault code. The reflash "broadens the tolerance of detection."

Subaru's explanation
Intriguingly, while Subaru agrees that ECU mapping is the cause, the automaker believes an ECU reflash is the only necessary repair.
"This is not a mileage-dependent condition. No replacement of the ECU is needed at any mileage to rectify the issue. The ECU re-flash is the fix. There is not a defect concerning the ECU," Subaru spokesman Dominick Infante said.

Toyota's ECU programming is being handled by field technical specialists, rather than dealership service techs, resulting in longer-than-normal repair waits for customers, Lyons said. "Our field offices are coordinating the remedies."

Lyons said all cars that have arrived at a dealership since mid-August should already be reflashed with the correct ECU software mapping. And not every car built before then will have the handshake issue, because "it's a combination of parts, tolerances and interactions between the car and ECU" that can trigger the fault.




The Scion FR-S shares its mechanics with the Subaru BRZ.


Angry customers
As performance coupes, these cars are attracting coveted enthusiast buyers and brand evangelists. But their vocal owners have not been pleased to see their vehicles underperform.

"Mine's on the third week in the shop. Parts are on back-order," a Scion FR-S owner in Washington state known as "Alrashwa" wrote on the FT86club.com Web site. "VVTi cam gear and oil control valve are what they claimed to be replacing. Waiting on gaskets which are on back-order, apparently."

Others on the forum say they have had replacements performed of the camshaft bearing, cam gears, actuators and cam position sensors.
Subaru's Infante called the condition "extremely rare." However, the FT86club had more than 100 registered complaints. What's more, several members who have had the ECU reflashed or replaced said the fix didn't stop the problem from recurring, resulting in other engine fault codes and additional service lane visits.

Toyota and Subaru officials declined to say how many cars could be affected or how many complaints have been filed.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
AVANTI R5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 01:59 PM   #2
torquemada
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 128484
Join Date: Oct 2006
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Germany
Vehicle:
2006 EDM WRX STI
WRB

Default

this canīt be real

if thatīs true, you canīt buy this car second hand

I hope the responsible engineers
torquemada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 02:07 PM   #3
Skunkers
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 115480
Join Date: May 2006
Location: St. Pete, FL
Vehicle:
2002 RSX-S
Desert Silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by torquemada View Post
this canīt be real

if thatīs true, you canīt buy this car second hand

I hope the responsible engineers


Joke post?
Skunkers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 02:43 PM   #4
mbs627
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 99794
Join Date: Nov 2005
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Lower Bux, PA
Vehicle:
2013 FR-S
Darky dark

Default

New engine new car new problems. I'll wait a year or so...
mbs627 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 03:28 PM   #5
heavyD
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 194216
Join Date: Nov 2008
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Vehicle:
2013 STI Sport-tech

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbs627 View Post
New engine new car new problems. I'll wait a year or so...
Yep. An unfortunate side effect of purchasing any first year model is that early adopters are in effect providing the manufacturer R&D for problems that weren't caught in testing. There's also widespread reports of the engine ticking/chirping.
heavyD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 03:29 PM   #6
endlesss
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 196720
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Vehicle:
2015 WRX STI
Dark Gray Metallic

Default

What's funny is, and the article eludes to this, many peoples engines are getting torn apart to 'fix' this issue. Now they are coming out and saying it's simply a software issue. Two ways to look at this, and both aren't good:

1. It is indeed a software issue, and those poor people who had their engines taken apart by some Tech at a dealership who undoubtedly has never worked on this engine(especially Scion Techs).
2. It is a hardware issue however they are simply increasing 'acceptable values' in the ECU. This would be even worse in my eyes because those tolerances were derived for a reason.

The whole situation just seems fishy.

What's baffling is how this got past any sort of QA/Testing. Some people reported the CEL illuminating while they were driving their BRAND NEW car off the lot! I've never purchased a brand new car but I can't even imagine how upsetting that would be. Not the way you want to start ownership...

endlesss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 03:33 PM   #7
heavyD
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 194216
Join Date: Nov 2008
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Vehicle:
2013 STI Sport-tech

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by endlesss View Post
What's baffling is how this got past any sort of QA/Testing. Some people reported the CEL illuminating while they were driving their BRAND NEW car off the lot! I've never purchased a brand new car but I can't even imagine how upsetting that would be. Not the way you want to start ownership...
Deadlines. I imagine a lot of testing is done right down to the last minute of the release date and unless the issues are deemed as deal breakers the manufacturer releases the cars to the public. Like I said in my previous post it seems like some testing is being passed on to early adopters. Is it right? No but it seems to happen an awful lot these days with new car roll-outs.
heavyD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 03:48 PM   #8
spaceywilly
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 174268
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Providence
Vehicle:
2002 WRX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by endlesss View Post
What's funny is, and the article eludes to this, many peoples engines are getting torn apart to 'fix' this issue. Now they are coming out and saying it's simply a software issue. Two ways to look at this, and both aren't good:

1. It is indeed a software issue, and those poor people who had their engines taken apart by some Tech at a dealership who undoubtedly has never worked on this engine(especially Scion Techs).
I would hope that even if they suspect it is a software issue, they would do due diligence and verify there is not an underlying hardware issue to blame. From the article it sounds like Toyota sent field technicians to diagnose the issue, and did not use the dealership techs.
Quote:
2. It is a hardware issue however they are simply increasing 'acceptable values' in the ECU. This would be even worse in my eyes because those tolerances were derived for a reason.
There is also a warranty for a reason

Quote:
What's baffling is how this got past any sort of QA/Testing. Some people reported the CEL illuminating while they were driving their BRAND NEW car off the lot! I've never purchased a brand new car but I can't even imagine how upsetting that would be. Not the way you want to start ownership...
There are inevitably differences between what is seen in the limited production runs used for testing in controlled environments, and the 10,000s of mass produced engines that are used and abused in the real world in wildly varying conditions. These kinds of issues are common on first year runs of a new model. No matter how much testing you do, you can't guaranty a product is 100% free of faults. The important thing is how well the company responds when these issues come up.
spaceywilly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 05:37 PM   #9
LastResort
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 99289
Join Date: Oct 2005
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceywilly View Post
The important thing is how well the company responds when these issues come up.
This. I was unimpressed with the SOA response to the Change Engine Sound in the 09 WRX (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1695936), so I'll be watching this one closely.
LastResort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 09:01 PM   #10
corbett
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 87203
Join Date: May 2005
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: DFW
Vehicle:
04 wrx

Default

Why would anyone design an ECU that permanently locks in parameters during the 1st 100 miles? I'm not sure test drives and babying during break in provide a good indication of driving habits.
corbett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 09:30 PM   #11
Hondaslayer
Purified Dick
Moderator
 
Member#: 4562
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Auburn, WA
Vehicle:
1995 Legacy LSi
1998 Forester, lifted.

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by corbett View Post
Why would anyone design an ECU that permanently locks in parameters during the 1st 100 miles? I'm not sure test drives and babying during break in provide a good indication of driving habits.
They don't, somebody over there is quite confused.
Hondaslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 09:46 PM   #12
OrbitalEllipses
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 178811
Join Date: Apr 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: MoCo
Vehicle:
2013 Why don't you
just GFY?

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondaslayer View Post
They don't, somebody over there is quite confused.
Utter bull**** it what it is.

There's rumors that it could be the head casting itself, which is bad news bears if true. FWIW, my car occasionally stumbles at idle down to 400rpm then hops back to 900 before settling at 700. Nothing like some of the videos I've seen of almost vacuum leak like jumping between 400-1200. Waiting to see if the CEL/SL manifests before I continue modifying the car.
OrbitalEllipses is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 10:25 PM   #13
dwx
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 8343
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Atlanta, GA
Vehicle:
2005 2012 Jeep
2013 DGM BRZ

Default

I have never had any idle issues knock on wood, but not impressed with how Subaru and Toyota have handled things. They started off with a TSB and replaced AVCS cam gears which never seemed to solve the issue. There were reports months ago of someone having their ECU replaced but only recently have they really started doing it for most people or performing a reflash. So after months and probably a few hundred cases between Subaru and Toyota there is still no root cause. The folks getting a reflash are afraid they are just masking the issue by changing something in the ECU to do so but it seems to be fixing the issue. In some cases they are still replacing oil control valves and cam gears along with the reflash.

In some cases they have already replaced cars and others have pursued lemon laws mainly because people have to wait so long for parts.
dwx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 11:12 PM   #14
jutes85
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 127232
Join Date: Sep 2006
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Location: Suck Lake, Alberta
Vehicle:
E92 M3
98' Foz

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by endlesss View Post

Just what the hell is that washer tank made out of?
jutes85 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 11:45 PM   #15
jonnyrockets
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 177577
Join Date: Apr 2008
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Vehicle:
2006 WRX

Default

generally, washer tanks don't give a ****
jonnyrockets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2012, 01:19 AM   #16
ManualOverAuto
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 304662
Join Date: Dec 2011
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Vehicle:
2001 Impreza L coupe
Sedona red Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD
There's also widespread reports of the engine ticking/chirping.
It's still basically a Subaru engine, and for the most part Subaru engines have a "tick" from the injectors. Although, I'm not sure if the new motors (FB, FA) have that injector tick that the EJ's do, or not.

Last edited by ManualOverAuto; 10-05-2012 at 03:16 AM.
ManualOverAuto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2012, 08:25 AM   #17
arf80
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 125580
Join Date: Sep 2006
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: North NJ
Vehicle:
2011 WRX 5dr
OBP

Default

This is a good reminder to myself not to buy the first MY of any new car.
arf80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2012, 10:23 AM   #18
Calamity Jesus
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 44501
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: in a minefield of caddishness.
Vehicle:
1984 That's *Sir*
Weinerlicks of Douche 2u.

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManualOverAuto View Post
It's still basically a Subaru engine, and for the most part Subaru engines have a "tick" from the injectors. Although, I'm not sure if the new motors (FB, FA) have that injector tick that the EJ's do, or not.
DI injectors make an almost diesel-like clatter at idle. The BRZ has both DI and port injectors.. but the port injectors aren't operating at idle.
Calamity Jesus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2012, 10:24 AM   #19
Rootus
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 89821
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: A Series Of Toobs
Vehicle:
2015 STI LE

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManualOverAuto View Post
It's still basically a Subaru engine, and for the most part Subaru engines have a "tick" from the injectors. Although, I'm not sure if the new motors (FB, FA) have that injector tick that the EJ's do, or not.
It's not a tick they're complaining about, it's a chirp, like a cricket.
Rootus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2012, 11:19 AM   #20
Italiano
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 2137
Join Date: Aug 2000
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: CT, USA -what am I doing here?
Vehicle:
a 6spd Manual
Acura

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by arf80 View Post
This is a good reminder to myself not to buy the first MY of any new car.

exactly !
Italiano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2012, 12:16 PM   #21
White out
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 46277
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Michigan
Vehicle:
** Ring Time of
7:40

Default

Subaru has ALWAYS had tune issues on first model years. This is no surprise.

Nick
White out is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2012, 01:20 PM   #22
dwx
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 8343
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Atlanta, GA
Vehicle:
2005 2012 Jeep
2013 DGM BRZ

Default

It's not the tuning.

The chirp is the high pressure fuel pump and has to do with the gas blends we have here. If I run Shell 93 it goes away. Both Subaru and Toyota released TSBs within the last week to replace the HPFP on cars with certain VINs or exhibiting the behavior.

That's the only issue I have had approaching 3500 miles.
dwx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2012, 01:50 PM   #23
illmatic
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 3536
Join Date: Jan 2001
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: SD, OC
Vehicle:
2013 SWP BRZ Limited
2002/2003 AW/PSM WRX

Default

I have 5K miles and have the so chirp at idle at times, but it does not bother me. Anyone have access to TSB #09-54-12 for VIN's BEFORE: D*603383.
illmatic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2012, 03:28 PM   #24
b4wantab
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 21293
Join Date: Jul 2002
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Oak Park, IL
Vehicle:
05 OB Black Bean
1969 W-30

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jutes85 View Post
Just what the hell is that washer tank made out of?
Chuck Norris?

Peace,

Greg
b4wantab is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.