Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday September 18, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > Newbies & FAQs

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-12-2012, 10:20 AM   #1
s2ktosti
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 70151
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: New Jersey Shore
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Limited
Black

Default Benefits of a stage 1 tune on 2009+

Since I've gone from stock (obviously), Cobb stage 1, and now Torqued Performance Stage 1 I thought I'd post something in the newbie section since someone usually turns up asking about it.

This also applies to Stage 2 come to think of it.

Lets start with the stock factory tune.

The factory tune is for lack of a better word... garbage. It runs too lean, has hesitation issues, and goes from responsive to sluggish several times a day. Any time I pushed the car over 4k rpms I could feel it "hiccup" and then take off. I'm assuming this is the car going from Closed Loop to open. Very annoying to say the least. Either way the stock tune never impressed me, and how lean it was running never gave me the warm fuzzies. Maybe if drove it all the time at 3500 rpms or less it'd be fine. (i'm sure that's what subaru thought we'd all do... not)

Cobb's stage 1

Cobb's stage 1 is a solid tune. I ended up having to use the 91 oct map even though we have 93 readily available. I was getting to much knock for my comfort level. But anyway, much smoother than the factory tune with the 91 map. My biggest problem with the cobb tune is it feels more like the factory tune should have, but I was never impressed with its throttle response. It was smooth, but didn't seem responsive. Still, over all it's a huge improvement on the factory tune. I don't believe in butt dyno's, and never really noticed a huge improvement for power. The car just ran happier is about the best I can say there.

Torqued Performance Stage 1

Now this tune is really fun. So far I haven't had any issues with knocking, the throttle is very responsive, it feels really smooth. It's good for 91 or 93 octane also, so you don't need to swap maps if you take a road trip from a 93 octane area to a 91. I'm very happy with it, and part of what you get is if you do log knock or other issues you can email over to TP and they'll help get you sorted out. This is where they really shine over Cobb, who'll just tell you to run one of their other maps and hope it works or go find a tuner.

I'm not putting Cobb down, they just won't customize a map for one customer unless you bring it in to their shop. They aren't into customized E-tunes, I think they might be missing the boat on that one.

Now, is a custom dyno tune better than an E-tune? Of course, it's also a heck of a lot more expensive and the benefits for the typical stage 1 or 2 car isn't overly exciting. If you're a min/max type of person go for it. If you just want your car to run reliably, have more power, be responsive, and run smoother a GOOD E-tuner can set you up. No, you won't have a pretty chart to show off how much power you are making to your interweb buddies. I've always taken those with a grain of salt anyway as the damn things read different from shop to shop and day to day.

Feel free to post your own experiences with any E-tuner and what you thought of it over the stock tune. If we can consolidate this info, maybe we just link this thread or one like it whenever someone in the newbie section inevitability asks about tunes.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

Last edited by s2ktosti; 09-12-2012 at 02:22 PM.
s2ktosti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 10:45 AM   #2
Groundup
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 294682
Join Date: Sep 2011
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Maine
Vehicle:
02 wrx
Sedona Red

Default

I enjoyed reading this, I like picking up a little info on the newer models. I'm somewhat out of that loop.
Groundup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 10:57 AM   #3
SparkSilver10NM
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 302438
Join Date: Nov 2011
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Albuquerque
Vehicle:
10 WRX
SS DMrally tuned!

Default

I started with a stage 1 cobb tune and was pleasently surprised. It was far better than the stock tune, but still had some hesitation in throttle response and I experienced a few lean conditions on the 91 map even though I was running 91. I contacted cobb and explained the situation, asked if it could be the elevation i'm at (5200ft) and they basically blew me off. They told me I needed to upgrade to premium fuel since there's no way I could run lean if I was using the correct fuel and map.
I'm also not putting cobb down, they make a decent plug and play product. But I decided to go open source anyway.

So is open source more expensive? Is it worth the extra cash? well yes, for me it has been. I plan on going stage 2 and beyond at some point and i'd rather be able to tune my specific vehicle in my specific conditions rather than an OTS tune.

Good move OP, this could be useful for newbies if we get enough participation.

This is just my personal experience, and everyone should gauge their needs against their checkbook and make their own decision.
SparkSilver10NM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 11:06 AM   #4
Aithos
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 329677
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Quad Cities, IA
Vehicle:
2013 WRX Limited
DGM

Default

I'd love to do a stage 1 tune but I'm concerned about warranty issues. I haven't even taken delivery of my 2013 yet so I don't want to shoot myself in the foot so to speak. I'm not really planning on any mods until this isn't my DD (5+ years) but if the car runs more smoothly I wouldn't mind doing this. What do you guys think?
Aithos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 11:15 AM   #5
the suicidal eggroll
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 51961
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Broomfield, CO
Vehicle:
2005 STi
2012 WRX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aithos View Post
I'd love to do a stage 1 tune but I'm concerned about warranty issues. I haven't even taken delivery of my 2013 yet so I don't want to shoot myself in the foot so to speak. I'm not really planning on any mods until this isn't my DD (5+ years) but if the car runs more smoothly I wouldn't mind doing this. What do you guys think?
Nobody can make that decision for you.

The stage 1 tune WILL run better and smoother, and be safer than the stock map. However, should you have any engine/drivetain issues, SOA will certainly frown on it and will likely deny the claim. It's a decision that only you can make.

The question I asked myself that ended up deciding it for me is, "If I do tune it, and it's running well and is knock free, and the engine STILL fails, do I really want Subaru to put another set of crap pistons back in anyway?" It's about $1k to drop in a set of forged pistons on a relatively new vehicle if you do most of the labor yourself, not that bad.
the suicidal eggroll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 11:17 AM   #6
cmiovino
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 134005
Join Date: Dec 2006
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Vehicle:
2004 WRX Premium
PSM

Default

Great write-up, OP.
cmiovino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 11:44 AM   #7
s2ktosti
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 70151
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: New Jersey Shore
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Limited
Black

Default

Just for clarification, you can get a custom tune using the accessport. You do not need to switch to opensource. Each has its advantages/disadvantages and people like one over the other for very valid reasons that fit that individuals need.

Long story short, both work well and get the job done.
s2ktosti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 12:05 PM   #8
Source,LLC
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 322524
Join Date: Jun 2012
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Chicago,IL
Vehicle:
3.5 WRX STI
WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by s2ktosti View Post
The factory tune is for lack of a better word... garbage. It runs too lean, has hesitation issues, and go from responsive to sluggish several times a day. Any time I pushed the car over 4k rpms I could feel it "hiccup" and then take off. I'm assuming this is the car going from Closed Loop to open. Very annoying to say the least. Either way the stock tune never impressed me, and how lean it was running never gave me the warm fuzzies. Maybe if drove it all the time at 3500 rpms or less it'd be fine. (i'm sure that's what subaru thought we'd all do... not)

Cobb's stage 1

Cobb's stage 1 is a solid tune. I ended up having to use the 91 oct map even though we have 93 readily available. I was getting to much knock for my comfort level. But anyway, much smoother than the factory tune and doesn't ever run lean on me with the 91 map. My biggest problem with the cobb tune is it feels more like the factory tune should have, but I was never impressed with its throttle response. It was smooth, but didn't seem responsive. Still, over all it's a huge improvement on the factory tune. I don't believe in butt dyno's, and never really noticed a huge improvement for power. The car just ran happier is about the best I can say there.


I don't disagree that the stock tune does run to lean when transitioning from closed to open loop but I'm just curious to see if you were monitoring that with your wideband. When you said Cobb's map was causing too much knock do you mean FBKC or FLKC, and what levels were you seeing? I'm surprised as Cobbs OTS maps are fairly tame and really shouldn't be causing any knock. The Torqued Performance map pushes the car a bit more, but in my experience those maps are top notch.
Source,LLC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 12:22 PM   #9
yes4idol
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 316621
Join Date: Apr 2012
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Buffalo Grove, IL
Vehicle:
2012 WRX Hatch Stg 1
Cobb SF Intake, SPT CBE

Default

Yup. Play at your own risk. Log often. I'm addicted to logging!
yes4idol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 12:32 PM   #10
s2ktosti
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 70151
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: New Jersey Shore
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Limited
Black

Default

I'll have to see if I can hunt down the logs again. I'm not a tuner by any stretch of the imagination so what I think is a problem may or may not be. What I think of as too much could be perfectly fine . On 3rd gear pulls I was seeing a lot of -2.5 and -1.5 corrections and a knock sum of 15-20 per pull. Switched to the 91 oct and it all went away. Frankly I went with the no knock is better than any knock and stuck with it It could also have been crappy gas too. They are fond of ethanol mixes around here. It's supposed to be 10%, but who knows.

In case anyone missed it, these are my observations and feelings. I'm not tuner, nor do I care to be one.
s2ktosti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 12:36 PM   #11
Source,LLC
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 322524
Join Date: Jun 2012
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Chicago,IL
Vehicle:
3.5 WRX STI
WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by s2ktosti View Post
I'll have to see if I can hunt down the logs again. I'm not a tuner by any stretch of the imagination so what I think is a problem may or may not be. What I think of as too much could be perfectly fine . On 3rd gear pulls I was seeing a lot of -2.5 and -1.5 corrections and a knock sum of 15-20 per pull. Switched to the 91 oct and it all went away. Frankly I went with the no knock is better than any knock and stuck with it It could also have been crappy gas too. They are fond of ethanol mixes around here. It's supposed to be 10%, but who knows.

In case anyone missed it, these are my observations and feelings. I'm not tuner, nor do I care to be one.


-1.4 or < knock usually isn't anything to be worried about but I will agree no knock is always better .

As far as your ethanol content comment goes its sort of backwards. If there is a larger % ethanol content you will actually have better knock protection as it has a higher octane rating, the tuner will just need to compensate for the amount of fueling needed in order to achieve correct AFR's under boost.

Was a wideband used to measure true AFR's under boost?
Source,LLC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 01:18 PM   #12
s2ktosti
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 70151
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: New Jersey Shore
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Limited
Black

Default

Nope, don't have a wideband don't plan on getting one. Besides, this is getting off topic. If I wanted to trouble shoot it I'd have made a post in the Tuning section.
s2ktosti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 01:20 PM   #13
Source,LLC
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 322524
Join Date: Jun 2012
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Chicago,IL
Vehicle:
3.5 WRX STI
WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by s2ktosti View Post
Nope, don't have a wideband don't plan on getting one. Besides, this is getting off topic. If I wanted to trouble shoot it I'd have made a post in the Tuning section.

Then your statements about how rich or lean something is running are based on nothing. I only ask because lots of people claim they are running to lean but have absolutely no data to back up such a statement.
Source,LLC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 02:24 PM   #14
s2ktosti
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 70151
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: New Jersey Shore
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Limited
Black

Default

Just for you I removed "lean" from cobb's tune info. Now can we return to our regularly scheduled post?
s2ktosti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 07:04 PM   #15
SWP n Gold
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 110783
Join Date: Mar 2006
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Stamford, CT
Vehicle:
2010 WRX
Satin White Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Source,LLC View Post
As far as your ethanol content comment goes its sort of backwards. If there is a larger % ethanol content you will actually have better knock protection as it has a higher octane rating
I never understood why people complained about "gas containing up to 10% ethanol" as if it were a bad thing. It raises the octane.
SWP n Gold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 07:22 PM   #16
the suicidal eggroll
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 51961
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Broomfield, CO
Vehicle:
2005 STi
2012 WRX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SWP n Gold View Post
I never understood why people complained about "gas containing up to 10% ethanol" as if it were a bad thing. It raises the octane.
Only if the gas was already at the octane rating before the Ethanol was added. If it was 87 piss and they just added enough Ethanol to bring it up to 93, that's a whole different ballgame.
the suicidal eggroll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 07:36 PM   #17
BigRob74
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 305107
Join Date: Dec 2011
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Long Island, NY
Vehicle:
2012 wrx
360/386 E85

Default

i love my tp stage 2 tune. his stage 1 was way better than the cobb stage 1. it took 3 times to get my stage 2 map right, and its awesome. i am curious to see what it would do against a protune. a protune near me is almost 400 bux, and if it only gets me 10 more whp i will stick with my 85 dollar etune. and if i add an intake and exhaust he will also retune it for no charge...gotta love that!
BigRob74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 08:13 PM   #18
SWP n Gold
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 110783
Join Date: Mar 2006
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Stamford, CT
Vehicle:
2010 WRX
Satin White Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by the suicidal eggroll View Post
Only if the gas was already at the octane rating before the Ethanol was added. If it was 87 piss and they just added enough Ethanol to bring it up to 93, that's a whole different ballgame.
Correct.
SWP n Gold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2012, 09:34 AM   #19
s2ktosti
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 70151
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: New Jersey Shore
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Limited
Black

Default

Ya, most of the gas around here is pretty bad. The best place is a somewhat local BP station but it's way out of my way unfortunately.

I know the party line for Cobb is that the their tunes are meant to be "super safe", but I wonder if the real reason is they left some "meat" for other tuners so they'd be more inclined to support the AP. Also have to wonder if that's why they haven't gotten into the custom E-tune side of things.
s2ktosti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2012, 02:52 PM   #20
Power6
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 72730
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Wayland, MA
Vehicle:
2001 Lexus ES300,
2005 Outback XT

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by s2ktosti View Post
Just for you I removed "lean" from cobb's tune info. Now can we return to our regularly scheduled post?
You should also replace "lean" on the stock tune with "I read it is lean on the Internets". We know Subaru has to server the EPA gods but you did not measure anything yourself and have no professional tuning credibility to call the stock tune "garbage". Sorry you can't put stuff out on the Internet and cry about it when the conversation doesn't please you.

One interesting thing I found, moddng and demodding my 09 WRX over time, stock to Cobb to TP stage1, TP Stage 2, then back TP stage 1 to stock, was I loved the change from each step, but as I de-modded, I realized it isn't that different in feel. I guess that is a psychological effect, we want to believe there is a big difference each step of the way and on the flip side we realize it isn't that big a deal. I know how dare I say each "Stage" isn't totally worth every penny, but it is something for the casual modder to think about...
Power6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2012, 03:28 PM   #21
the suicidal eggroll
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 51961
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Broomfield, CO
Vehicle:
2005 STi
2012 WRX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Power6 View Post
You should also replace "lean" on the stock tune with "I read it is lean on the Internets". We know Subaru has to server the EPA gods but you did not measure anything yourself and have no professional tuning credibility to call the stock tune "garbage". Sorry you can't put stuff out on the Internet and cry about it when the conversation doesn't please you.
The stock tune is garbage. There is MORE than enough evidence of that, from dyno plots with AFR superposed to logs during a pull. It also drives like absolute **** from 3-4k.
the suicidal eggroll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2012, 03:29 PM   #22
s2ktosti
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 70151
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: New Jersey Shore
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Limited
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Power6 View Post
You should also replace "lean" on the stock tune with "I read it is lean on the Internets". We know Subaru has to server the EPA gods but you did not measure anything yourself and have no professional tuning credibility to call the stock tune "garbage". Sorry you can't put stuff out on the Internet and cry about it when the conversation doesn't please you.

One interesting thing I found, moddng and demodding my 09 WRX over time, stock to Cobb to TP stage1, TP Stage 2, then back TP stage 1 to stock, was I loved the change from each step, but as I de-modded, I realized it isn't that different in feel. I guess that is a psychological effect, we want to believe there is a big difference each step of the way and on the flip side we realize it isn't that big a deal. I know how dare I say each "Stage" isn't totally worth every penny, but it is something for the casual modder to think about...
There are enough people on here I trust that agree it does that I don't feel like I need to reinvent the wheel and do it over.

On your second point I don't disagree too much. I'll never go beyond stage 1, just don't care enough frankly. I've had the modded Evo's, s2000's, and Sti. While it was entertaining briefly, about all it really accomplished was burning a whole in my wallet. I'm more interested in clearing up some of the things that annoy me. Hesitation, throttle response, sometimes laggy sometimes not etc. If it happens to make the car a little more reliable with extra power it's a bonus. That's why I don't use my butt dyno and throw guesses out over how much hp I think it's making now. Don't know... really don't care.
s2ktosti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2012, 03:46 PM   #23
SWP n Gold
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 110783
Join Date: Mar 2006
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Stamford, CT
Vehicle:
2010 WRX
Satin White Pearl

Default

I just wanted a healthy tune on my car, not one that's running a 14.X:1 until 4,XXXrpm. Power and driveability are bonuses.
SWP n Gold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2012, 08:55 PM   #24
sizemic1
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 270669
Join Date: Jan 2011
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Temecula, CA
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Sedan
Stg 2 Phatbotti e-tuned

Default

Very happy with my Stage 2 e-tune. Can't imagine a dynotune being much better than what i have now.
sizemic1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2012, 11:42 PM   #25
garudatwo
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 322385
Join Date: Jun 2012
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Default

How many PSI's of boost are you running now? 18?
garudatwo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.