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Old 09-16-2012, 02:46 AM   #1
turboedpickup
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Default 07 WRX - Newb to AP V2...datalogs

Hello all. I just flashed the Stage 1 ACN 91 map on my 07 WRX MT this past thursday...and I finally did some data logs this morning (saturday) ~ 80F outside. And here they are...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...mRmY4M1E#gid=0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...lbUI2dGc#gid=0

I went through a mountain of thoughts... first off... upon flooring it, I sometimes get 16psi of boost after that...it seems to do just fine.

Then I heard about how the AFR's (on Cobb's site) should taper down to 10ish - I freaked out about my 11ish...and then learned that my NBO2 is "blind" @<11 AFRs... so end of that.

Then I noticed the feedback knock and etc... Upon reading...I find that I have another issue (bigger?) - my DAM is 0.5... so I "freak out" and reflashed the Stage 1 map to erase everything and try to do the vishnu reset.....

It was too hot today (100F)...and I got no where.

So here I am - weather is finally cooling off. What should I do? I hear that I should run through a full tank of gas before I make any decisions. Between the first-time flash (Thursday) and the datalogging (today), I had driven ~ 90 miles.

How do the logs look? Thanks for all the help, in advance. A part of me just wants to leave the AP and go to the stock map.
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Old 09-16-2012, 04:42 AM   #2
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DAM, Feedback Knock and Fine Knock Learning are all methods of Subaru knock control.

When you reflash, your DAM defaults to a value >1 (depends on MAP), and as you drive it slowly learns and increases timing (moving towards that magical 1 number) as long as it doesn't see knock. The feedback knock your getting is at a consistent RPM every time. I'd almost want to say it's on tip-in but can't tell without throttle position. (you should add that as a parameter).

I'd say flash the 91 ACN map again, drive her nice for a bit, let the ECU relearn (put some gas through her) and re-log.
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Old 09-16-2012, 07:16 AM   #3
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Your car will learn the tune..I check mine every month or so just to make sure its all good. No Problems..I love my AP!
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Old 09-16-2012, 10:50 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by turboedpickup View Post
Hello all. I just flashed the Stage 1 ACN 91 map on my 07 WRX MT this past thursday...and I finally did some data logs this morning (saturday) ~ 80F outside. And here they are...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...mRmY4M1E#gid=0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...lbUI2dGc#gid=0

I went through a mountain of thoughts... first off... upon flooring it, I sometimes get 16psi of boost after that...it seems to do just fine.

Then I heard about how the AFR's (on Cobb's site) should taper down to 10ish - I freaked out about my 11ish...and then learned that my NBO2 is "blind" @<11 AFRs... so end of that.

Then I noticed the feedback knock and etc... Upon reading...I find that I have another issue (bigger?) - my DAM is 0.5... so I "freak out" and reflashed the Stage 1 map to erase everything and try to do the vishnu reset.....

It was too hot today (100F)...and I got no where.

So here I am - weather is finally cooling off. What should I do? I hear that I should run through a full tank of gas before I make any decisions. Between the first-time flash (Thursday) and the datalogging (today), I had driven ~ 90 miles.

How do the logs look? Thanks for all the help, in advance. A part of me just wants to leave the AP and go to the stock map.
Nothing unusual in these logs, although I would use the AccessPORT's reset log list function (Under Monitors) as you are missing key parameters in the log.

Your DAM will start at 0.5 for this map after a reflash and eventually learn up to 1.0. The 06-07 WRX maps can be a bit slow in this regard (something we will remedy in the future). For now, the way to "help it along" is to try to get moderate steady boost in the 2000-3000 RPM range.

Bill
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Old 09-16-2012, 06:43 PM   #5
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Thanks everyone! I reflashed the stage 1 map once again...and I'll try the moderate steady boost thing... is that like accelerating without "flooring" and shifting at under 3000k? (just trying to get the language cleared up). Thanks again.
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Old 09-17-2012, 03:26 AM   #6
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I think he means just make sure your car is seeing boost in that RPM range, shift point won't matter.
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Old 09-17-2012, 10:48 AM   #7
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Thanks everyone! I reflashed the stage 1 map once again...and I'll try the moderate steady boost thing... is that like accelerating without "flooring" and shifting at under 3000k? (just trying to get the language cleared up). Thanks again.
What you are doing is just trying to create conditions in which the DAM will learn faster up to 1.0. If you can do so safely, that would be just trying to produce moderate boost from 2000-3000 RPM a few times (not driving like that consistently). There is also a map change that I can walk you through so that the DAM will learn faster, if you'd prefer that route. That will require the free AccessTUNER Race software, available to version 2 AccessPORT users:
http://www.cobbtuning.com/accesstune...st-s/70716.htm

Bill
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Old 09-17-2012, 08:48 PM   #8
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New datalog!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...5dkpRSlE#gid=0

DAM is finally at 1! What do you recommend I do next? I have been avoiding any form of WOT high rpm runs... is that what's next? Thanks again Bill.
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Old 09-18-2012, 10:16 AM   #9
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New datalog!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...5dkpRSlE#gid=0

DAM is finally at 1! What do you recommend I do next? I have been avoiding any form of WOT high rpm runs... is that what's next? Thanks again Bill.
Yes, that would be the next step - to put the car under some higher load to see how it responds (now that you are using full timing advance with the DAM at 1.0). Check out our data logging video for details:


Bill
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Old 09-18-2012, 11:55 AM   #10
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This is my most recent datalog - after the DAM changing to "1"

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...HOTd1OWc#gid=0

It's pretty long - but I was mainly cruising on the freeway for most of this, and around cell-3900, I ease in to a WOT run only until 5400 rpms.

I do have a sound that I would like to think sounds like fluttering - it has been that way prior to the AP install. It occurs in the lower RPM's mainly before boost - and I wonder if that's what's causing the AP to register knock? Are those "feedback knock" values and "fine knock learn" normal?

Thanks again Bill. I'll check out the video and do some more higher load runs then.
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Old 09-19-2012, 09:15 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by turboedpickup View Post
This is my most recent datalog - after the DAM changing to "1"

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...HOTd1OWc#gid=0

It's pretty long - but I was mainly cruising on the freeway for most of this, and around cell-3900, I ease in to a WOT run only until 5400 rpms.

I do have a sound that I would like to think sounds like fluttering - it has been that way prior to the AP install. It occurs in the lower RPM's mainly before boost - and I wonder if that's what's causing the AP to register knock? Are those "feedback knock" values and "fine knock learn" normal?

Thanks again Bill. I'll check out the video and do some more higher load runs then.
Random feedback knock or fine knock learning at low load is normal behavior. You will also sometimes see corrections with rapidly changing throttle which is also generally normal. The best type of run you can do is a 3rd gear run from above 2000 RPM on up (only if you can do so safely). This will let you see how the car responds in an extended run at higher load from low RPM to high RPM.
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:20 PM   #12
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Finally got some more logs. Some are long some are short - I took out all the "ok" zones and just left the "trouble spots" if any.

First up - several instances of "Feedback Knock." The end has a WOT run.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...lg0UTdvYktPbGc

Next - 2000-5800 RPM WOT (boost pumps up to 15psi?) run followed by some feedback knock
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...zNyTHJyTktrb1E

MidRPM WOT (spikes to 15-16psi)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...VNJVUdFWmRoTmc

WOT 2000-5900 RPM (about 75 degress outside)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...jl2YTlkSnVZNGc

Feedback knock
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...kpFVlpMMktuMEE

Instance of increasing feedback knock - followed by WOT from 2500-6200 RPMs (about 88F outside)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...3JoQmtvLVNkOGc

I guess I need to wrap around what's acceptable for feedback knock. I have some tapping that happens in my car cold or warm - and I keep on thinking it is wastegate flutter... I still need to get it checked out. Would this be the reason for the feedback knock zones? Thanks again for you continuous help!
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Old 09-21-2012, 01:57 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning View Post
Yes, that would be the next step - to put the car under some higher load to see how it responds (now that you are using full timing advance with the DAM at 1.0). Check out our data logging video for details:

AskCOBB - Subaru Data Logging - YouTube

Bill
Thank you this video helped me get good logs.
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:11 AM   #14
Cobb Tuning
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Originally Posted by turboedpickup View Post
Finally got some more logs. Some are long some are short - I took out all the "ok" zones and just left the "trouble spots" if any.

First up - several instances of "Feedback Knock." The end has a WOT run.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...lg0UTdvYktPbGc

Next - 2000-5800 RPM WOT (boost pumps up to 15psi?) run followed by some feedback knock
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...zNyTHJyTktrb1E

MidRPM WOT (spikes to 15-16psi)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...VNJVUdFWmRoTmc

WOT 2000-5900 RPM (about 75 degress outside)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...jl2YTlkSnVZNGc

Feedback knock
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...kpFVlpMMktuMEE

Instance of increasing feedback knock - followed by WOT from 2500-6200 RPMs (about 88F outside)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...3JoQmtvLVNkOGc

I guess I need to wrap around what's acceptable for feedback knock. I have some tapping that happens in my car cold or warm - and I keep on thinking it is wastegate flutter... I still need to get it checked out. Would this be the reason for the feedback knock zones? Thanks again for you continuous help!
These sets of logs are very unusual. I think you have something making noise in the engine bay (or from tranny) that the knock sensor is picking up (i.e. false knock). Another possibility is a bad knock sensor. Sometimes you can also see this with a busted ringland. Do you notice any kind of noise (exhaust-type rattle, etc.)?

Bill
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Old 09-21-2012, 11:41 AM   #15
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There is a LOT of in between data taken out of those data logs (timestamps have big gaps), and I left about 4 rows of "0 feedback knock" in between each event. I did another datalog today (haven't gone home to look at it) but I didn't get any more than -2.8 of feedback knock. It seems that they occured after mid-throttle and relaxing the throttle to a very light input. IT also occured under low-mid throttle - which I held until the feedback knock increased from -1.4 for example...to 0.

My question (amongst others) are...

Does feedback knock make permanent timing adjustments to the map? If at 2600 rpms and x-throttle, the feedback went from -6.0 to 0... and I came back to that EXACT situation again - the timing should have already been adjusted from the previous event thereby no more feedback knock?

Are timing and fuel values based on rpm vs vaccum/boost, or rpm vs load, or both?

Am I simply running into portions of the map that were not optimized for my particular car and my ecu is slowly making changes to timing and etc via feedback knock? There are regions of the maps that I'd never/rarely touch due to my driving habits. Either way...are feedback knock adjustments temporary or permanent?

I do have a ticking/clicking that occurs at lower rpms. Somedays after driving home, I park the car and am idleing and I hear it clearly - tick tick tick tick... Today, nothing - just homogenous valvetrain noise. But the sound/tick is there from start up (today a little less) and stays even when it's warm. Could this be extreme wastegate flutter? I hope it's not a busted ringland.
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Old 09-21-2012, 01:05 PM   #16
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There is a LOT of in between data taken out of those data logs (timestamps have big gaps), and I left about 4 rows of "0 feedback knock" in between each event. I did another datalog today (haven't gone home to look at it) but I didn't get any more than -2.8 of feedback knock. It seems that they occured after mid-throttle and relaxing the throttle to a very light input. IT also occured under low-mid throttle - which I held until the feedback knock increased from -1.4 for example...to 0.

My question (amongst others) are...

Does feedback knock make permanent timing adjustments to the map? If at 2600 rpms and x-throttle, the feedback went from -6.0 to 0... and I came back to that EXACT situation again - the timing should have already been adjusted from the previous event thereby no more feedback knock?

Are timing and fuel values based on rpm vs vaccum/boost, or rpm vs load, or both?

Am I simply running into portions of the map that were not optimized for my particular car and my ecu is slowly making changes to timing and etc via feedback knock? There are regions of the maps that I'd never/rarely touch due to my driving habits. Either way...are feedback knock adjustments temporary or permanent?

I do have a ticking/clicking that occurs at lower rpms. Somedays after driving home, I park the car and am idleing and I hear it clearly - tick tick tick tick... Today, nothing - just homogenous valvetrain noise. But the sound/tick is there from start up (today a little less) and stays even when it's warm. Could this be extreme wastegate flutter? I hope it's not a busted ringland.
What you are seeing is not normal. The randomness of it and the fact that it doesn't really correspond to normal knock behavior makes me believe that it is not knock, but false knock. That could mean something the knock sensor is picking up or it could also mean a busted ringland (which also can be noisy as far as the knock sensor is concerned). Bad knock sensor is a possibility, especially if you know it has been touched before.

I would go ahead and get a compression/leak-down test done just to rule out the worst case scenario. You can use a mechanic's stethoscope to try to determine where the ticking noise is coming from, but usually, it is something like a loose heatshield or other metallic noise that the knock sensor is picking up. You may not necessarily be able to hear it, though.

Bill
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Old 09-22-2012, 07:34 PM   #17
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Yeah I'll have to schedule a compression/leakdown tests - I'm already paranoid as it is with these random feedback knocks. They all seem to be <3000 rpm zones though. But yeah. So a busted ringland would induce random knocking?
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Old 09-23-2012, 11:35 AM   #18
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Yeah I'll have to schedule a compression/leakdown tests - I'm already paranoid as it is with these random feedback knocks. They all seem to be <3000 rpm zones though. But yeah. So a busted ringland would induce random knocking?
Not from actual knock necessarily - just the noise that is being picked up by knock sensor.

Bill
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:33 PM   #19
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It took me a while to understand your last reply...in fact - I just got it right now. I'm posting up my last log from a couple of days ago. Same stuff... feedback knock here and there - somewhere between shifts (I was trying to follow the rpm drops)...here is the FULL file so we can see what was happening before and after the actual events.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...1A3dzNmTHYzLXc

Frustrated to see moments of -5, and -7 feedback knocks. -5 is at cell 1317.
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Old 09-24-2012, 09:31 PM   #20
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That's a nasty knock!

However, ECU doesn't adjust Fine Knock Learning tables or DAM value so it considers it random noise. Still, to be on the safe side, make some tests in the Subaru specializing shop. Then, even if all tests are OK, experienced mechanic might notice something strange, out of place, the real reason for registering a knock. Like the Cobb said, you have something very unusual going on with your car and I do not think anybody on this forum can help you with that.

I'm curious myself with what's going on. Please, keep us posted.
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Old 09-25-2012, 10:57 AM   #21
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It took me a while to understand your last reply...in fact - I just got it right now. I'm posting up my last log from a couple of days ago. Same stuff... feedback knock here and there - somewhere between shifts (I was trying to follow the rpm drops)...here is the FULL file so we can see what was happening before and after the actual events.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...1A3dzNmTHYzLXc

Frustrated to see moments of -5, and -7 feedback knocks. -5 is at cell 1317.
More of the same - random, unusual extreme reported knock events at very low loads. Again, either something is making noise from engine/engine bay/tranny, the knock sensor is having issues, or you have internal mechanical engine problems. Impossible to tell which of these it could be just from the log, so you'll have to run down each of the potential issues to verify. The compression/leak-down test should be your first step as it is the easiest to diagnose compared to the rest of the possibilities.

Bill
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:50 PM   #22
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Got the compression test done today - all was well. Turns out that there were some bad spark plugs on the car. He said that's where the knock might have come from. Sooo... i'll be back with some logs by the end of the month.
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Old 10-02-2012, 05:31 PM   #23
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Guess I won't be putting up any logs - sold the AP. Gonna have to wait when I save up for Stage 2.
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Old 10-02-2012, 06:33 PM   #24
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Guess I won't be putting up any logs - sold the AP. Gonna have to wait when I save up for Stage 2.
I hope you unmarried it first.
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Old 10-02-2012, 11:08 PM   #25
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Yeppers I did! I hate how long it took.
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