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Old 09-24-2012, 08:38 PM   #51
Januch09
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Thank you ^
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:47 AM   #52
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Just got word from my local Fire Department that their are no NJ laws or permits required to store large quantities of E85 at my house. I was informed that it would be "unsafe", but storing simple 5 gallon gas cans would be "unsafe" then too. And I'm pretty sure that everyone in America does that ahahhaha. Now I gotta start doing my research on the proper way of storing it, so it doesn't get diluted or anything!
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Old 09-25-2012, 10:10 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Januch09 View Post
Just got word from my local Fire Department that their are no NJ laws or permits required to store large quantities of E85 at my house. I was informed that it would be "unsafe", but storing simple 5 gallon gas cans would be "unsafe" then too. And I'm pretty sure that everyone in America does that ahahhaha. Now I gotta start doing my research on the proper way of storing it, so it doesn't get diluted or anything!
I think you are seriously minimizing the risk involved in storing that quantity of fuel. Your logic is very flawed to think that "If storing 55 gallons is unsafe, then storing 5 gallons must be unsafe". That makes no sense.

Storing 5 gallons falls within a reasonable risk. If it caught fire, sure it would be pretty bad news, but it would be nowhere NEAR as serious as if you had a 55 gallon drum on fire. You are talking about 10 times the stored energy.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but please dont minimize the risk of storing such a large quantity of fuel. It really has the potential to be quite devastating. There is a LOT of energy stored in a 55 gallon drum of fuel. I would guess there are safer ways to store fuel than just a drum in the corner of the garage. Maybe not. Personally, I'd want to find out.

Believe me, I drive 30 miles to fill up with E85 so I understand your pain. Just be as safe as you can about it.
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Old 09-25-2012, 10:21 AM   #54
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I think you are seriously minimizing the risk involved in storing that quantity of fuel. Your logic is very flawed to think that "If storing 55 gallons is unsafe, then storing 5 gallons must be unsafe". That makes no sense.

Storing 5 gallons falls within a reasonable risk. If it caught fire, sure it would be pretty bad news, but it would be nowhere NEAR as serious as if you had a 55 gallon drum on fire. You are talking about 10 times the stored energy.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but please dont minimize the risk of storing such a large quantity of fuel. It really has the potential to be quite devastating. There is a LOT of energy stored in a 55 gallon drum of fuel. I would guess there are safer ways to store fuel than just a drum in the corner of the garage. Maybe not. Personally, I'd want to find out.

Believe me, I drive 30 miles to fill up with E85 so I understand your pain. Just be as safe as you can about it.
Yeah, that is all very very true and I guess I really didn't think about it before I wrote it lol. I'm just real weary about buying E85 from a pump, because almost everyone I talked to say that pump Ethanol is never true E85. In fact, it's usually like 10%-15% lower. I'm truly trying to convince a local gas station to acquire it. I talked to him for an hour the other day and about how he would definitely get business because their is no E85 locally! He is definitely considering it because, I went their yesterday to fill up my car and the owner came out and talked to me as I was filling up about Ethanol and how the town administrator is on vacation but he is going to talk to him when he gets back. So hopefully that is a possibility and I won't have to worry about storing it, but then I'm back to worrying about it being true E85.
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Old 09-25-2012, 11:56 AM   #55
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We keep a 55 gallon drum of methanol in our shop. All you can do is keep the lid on tight and keep people from smoking cigarettes around it. Also I think plastic drums are a little safer than the oldschool metal ones
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:13 PM   #56
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^ this...also, the plastic ones are going to be much better at preventing corrosion, condensation, and contamination. it should be as easy as filling up the drum, throwing in some ethanol stabilizer, and then keep it sealed. you can even buy a pump that will allow you to pump the ethanol from the drum to the car without "cracking" the seal.
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Old 09-25-2012, 02:30 PM   #57
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^ this...also, the plastic ones are going to be much better at preventing corrosion, condensation, and contamination. it should be as easy as filling up the drum, throwing in some ethanol stabilizer, and then keep it sealed. you can even buy a pump that will allow you to pump the ethanol from the drum to the car without "cracking" the seal.
I planned on buying a pump so that I wouldn't have to open it every time. And I def would go with the plastic containers.
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Old 09-25-2012, 02:46 PM   #58
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Okay but how do I know if I'm getting true E85 or like 62% lol....is their a way I can test it at the pump or nah?
Here is an Ethanol tester, not sure of the accuracy.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/QFT-36-E85/
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Old 09-25-2012, 02:47 PM   #59
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Here is an Ethanol tester, not sure of the accuracy.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/QFT-36-E85/
A buddy actually recommended I get this if I run E85 and he sent me the exact same link lol. Thanks for the extra support
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Old 09-25-2012, 05:23 PM   #60
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I'm not sure if you ever worked out how you will actually get the E85 to your house yet or not. But it is not just as "simple" as using a pickup with a tailgate and some buddies. I think you are grossly underestimating how much 55 Gal's of E85 weighs. Let's math...

Knowing E85 has a specific gravity of 0.801 we know that it's relative density is 801 g/L. Also 1 gram = 0.00220462 lbs and 1L=0.264172 Gallons, that gives us

(801 g/L)*(1L / 0.264172 Gal)*(0.0022046 lbs / 1 gram)*(55 Gallons)= 367.7 lbs

That's just one hurdle, let alone you are thinking of transporting mass amounts of hazardous material in a pickup truck. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss what Hinshaw was saying, if he really does know Hazmat handling then he will be very helpful.

I think you are still missing quite a bit of what you will need to put into this. I would really sit down and see how much fuel you use a day, since this is your daily, and see if it is even feasible to run E85.

I will use my own driving as a basis. I drive roughly 80 miles a day, so 560 miles a week. We will estimate my MPG at 22 since it's mostly highway. That is roughly 25.5 gallons of fuel a week I use in my commute. Now if we apply E85 instead of gasoline we will say its 15% less energy, so you use 15% more fuel in the tune. This can be represented as 18.7 MPG instead of 22. I am now using 29.9 gallons of E85 a week on the same commute.
This means that 55 gallon drum will not last me even 2 weeks.

Now comes the part of is this worth it. Is it really worth the hassle to fill up 55 gallons of E85 every 2 weeks to see a bump in HP on your daily? Will you ever use this extra power on the street?

If your car really is over 400 whp already, you are using nowhere near it's full potential on the street. So it seems that E85 will net you nothing for the daily drive.

That is why most people run a 93 map for DD and save the E85 or 100 oct for the track.

Not trying to stop you from doing what you are doing, you just need to sit down and really think about it. Make a pros and cons list for yourself. Just me looking at your situation, I see a lot more cons than I do pros.

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Old 09-25-2012, 05:30 PM   #61
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I'm not sure if you ever worked out how you will actually get the E85 to your house yet or not. But it is not just as "simple" as using a pickup with a tailgate and some buddies. I think you are grossly underestimating how much 55 Gal's of E85 weighs. Let's math...

Knowing E85 has a specific gravity of 0.801 we know that it's relative density is 801 g/L. Also 1 gram = 0.00220462 lbs and 1L=0.264172 Gallons, that gives us

(801 g/L)*(1L / 0.264172 Gal)*(0.0022046 lbs / 1 gram)*(55 Gallons)= 367.7 lbs

That's just one hurdle, let alone you are thinking of transporting mass amounts of hazardous material in a pickup truck. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss what Hinshaw was saying, if he really does know Hazmat handling then he will be very helpful.

I think you are still missing quite a bit of what you will need to put into this. I would really sit down and see how much fuel you use a day, since this is your daily, and see if it is even feasible to run E85.

I will use my own driving as a basis. I drive roughly 80 miles a day, so 560 miles a week. We will estimate my MPG at 22 since it's mostly highway. That is roughly 25.5 gallons of fuel a week I use in my commute. Now if we apply E85 instead of gasoline we will say its 15% less energy, so you use 15% more fuel in the tune. This can be represented as 18.7 MPG instead of 22. I am now using 29.9 gallons of E85 a week on the same commute.
This means that 55 gallon drum will not last me even 2 weeks.

Now comes the part of is this worth it. Is it really worth the hassle to fill up 55 gallons of E85 every 2 weeks to see a bump in HP on your daily? Will you ever use this extra power on the street?

If your car really is over 400 whp already, you are using nowhere near it's full potential on the street. So it seems that E85 will net you nothing for the daily drive.

That is why most people run a 93 map for DD and save the E85 or 100 oct for the track.

Not trying to stop you from doing what you are doing, you just need to sit down and really think about it.
Sometimes I find myself in the same situation. Something SOUNDS like a great idea when I go over it in my head and think about the figures, but when it comes time to write it all down in a spreadsheet or other organized layout, it can become apparent that its maybe not as great of an idea as I had originally thought.

If you are really serious about storing fuel at the home, maybe check into what the minimum fill is for having it filled by a tanker right at the home. You may be able to pick up one of those tanks that farmers use that a couple hundred gallons. A stationary tank with a pump with a qualified tanker delivering it would make me feel a lot better about it. (neighbors might think you're nuts though lol) Might even get a better price this way.

Another thing to consider is your home owners insurance company. They will probably want to know about this. This is not something you want them to find out about AFTER a fire. Believe me when I say they employ people whos entire job is to find ways to deny your claim.

Think it through, and more than anything else, be safe about whatever you do decide.
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Old 09-25-2012, 05:35 PM   #62
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Another thing to consider is your home owners insurance company. ...

Think it through, and more than anything else, be safe about whatever you do decide.
Another great point, there is so much more to this than we can even come up with here. The most important thing is safety. I'm not trying to be a d*** but if you don't even know what a MSDS is then I don't think you should be transporting and storing mass amounts of flammable material in a residential area.

The other safety concern is this is your daily. You will never use it to it's full potential in 95% of it's driving. Just save the E85 for the track so you can enjoy it to it's fullest.

Edit: To follow this up HERE is an example of a MSDS for E85. Read through that...
Now read through it again...
Did you catch everything about transportation, storage, and fighting it as a fire?

Doesn't sound like anything I want to be storing in my house's garage.

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Old 09-25-2012, 07:39 PM   #63
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You are all making very very good point and definitely things that run through my head whether this truly is the right decision or not. Running 2 maps is my main option, I guess I never said that on here, but that has always been the option I was looking at other than running E85 all the time. I think it does make most sense for me to run pump as my daily and then E85 at the track and what not. But I'm still stuck at, where do I get my E85 for the track? My local stations aren't true E85, like stated, and I doubt I can get a delivery of E98 under 55 gallons. Ya know. I do really gotta sit down and tally up the pros and cons of doing this. Is it truely worth it, imo for the extra 60-100 who, hell yeah, thats a lot of power to make and don't forget about the wtq advance. IDK what I'm going to do yet. So many things to think about!
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Old 09-25-2012, 07:55 PM   #64
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if you look on some of those sites i showed you or if you search around on google, you can get 5gal cans of E85 and E98...not to mention even E70 is going to make some pretty serious gains vs. 93oct. in fact, the performance difference between E70 and E85 is actually fairly small in terms of peak power unless you are tuning to the absolute complete edge.
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:03 PM   #65
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if you look on some of those sites i showed you or if you search around on google, you can get 5gal cans of E85 and E98...not to mention even E70 is going to make some pretty serious gains vs. 93oct. in fact, the performance difference between E70 and E85 is actually fairly small in terms of peak power unless you are tuning to the absolute complete edge.
^This and be done with it. Call your tuner and tell him you want to tune for local "E85." They will tune the car according to the fuel available. Bam you now have a map that is tuned for your local fuel. No, need to worry about shipping fuel.

Now get a few 5 Gal cans. The day before the event, run your tank of 93 near empty, fill up on E85 and drive around that whole day with it. Fill up again before the event and fill up a trunk full of 5 Gal cans and transport them to the track with you. You now have a car tuned on your full tank of fuel, and you have back up fuel for the track day.

All problems solved and you will see the gains you want on the track.
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:05 PM   #66
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^This and be done with it. Call your tuner and tell him you want to tune for local "E85." They will tune the car according to the fuel available. Bam you now have a map that is tuned for your local fuel. No, need to worry about shipping fuel.

Now get a few 5 Gal cans. The day before the event, run your tank of 93 near empty, fill up on E85 and drive around that whole day with it. Fill up again before the event and fill up a trunk full of 5 Gal cans and transport them to the track with you. You now have a car tuned on your full tank of fuel, and you have back up fuel for the track day.

All problems solved and you will see the gains you want on the track.
Just like that huh. Bam, done! Made up my mind! Finished! lol Wish it was just that simple but idk if thats what I definitely want to do. Sounds like a real good plan and all though!
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:49 AM   #67
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How do you know it's not "true E85"? You need to get a tester and find out yourself. It's obvious you need 2 maps 1 for pump gas and 1 for E85. Do as stated before and when you want the power switch over and be done with it. Everyone here has givin you pretty much everything you need to know. Now you just need to make up your mind.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:00 AM   #68
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How do you know it's not "true E85"? You need to get a tester and find out yourself. It's obvious you need 2 maps 1 for pump gas and 1 for E85. Do as stated before and when you want the power switch over and be done with it. Everyone here has givin you pretty much everything you need to know. Now you just need to make up your mind.
People that I know who buy Ethanol from there, have tested it and its never true E85. And I know I gotta make up my mind.
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Old 09-26-2012, 07:51 PM   #69
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^This and be done with it. Call your tuner and tell him you want to tune for local "E85." They will tune the car according to the fuel available. Bam you now have a map that is tuned for your local fuel. No, need to worry about shipping fuel.

Now get a few 5 Gal cans. The day before the event, run your tank of 93 near empty, fill up on E85 and drive around that whole day with it. Fill up again before the event and fill up a trunk full of 5 Gal cans and transport them to the track with you. You now have a car tuned on your full tank of fuel, and you have back up fuel for the track day.

All problems solved and you will see the gains you want on the track.

You should not tune for just the e85 available at the time of the tune as the ethanol content will vary with the government mandated seasonal blends. Your tuner should know this and add enough headroom to be safe.

Everybody seems to be scared of storing e85. Why? Most people that visit a drag strip, ride mx, have an old hot rod sitting around or mow their own yard keep gasoline in the garage. From experience there's not much difference in what it takes to ignite either, although e85 is much harder to see burn. My concern with storage would be, 1) keeping the fuel clean, no rusty barrel, no crud, 2)transferring and transportation, 3)keeping moisture out of the fuel. Ethanol, like methanol, loves water although not as corrosive as methanol when mixed with water. Also, ethanol can drop the gasoline it is mixed with in favour of water.

If I were to only use race fuel at the strip and wanted the utmost power available I'd keep some $ VP $ in the garage, not e85. If I didn't require the last .025hp, e85 was locally available, and I needed more power, (who doesn't!), e85 would be my choice as it is affordable everyday driveable race fuel.

...just my $.02, YMMV, IMHO, yadda yadda
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Old 09-26-2012, 08:48 PM   #70
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You should not tune for just the e85 available at the time of the tune as the ethanol content will vary with the government mandated seasonal blends. Your tuner should know this and add enough headroom to be safe.

Everybody seems to be scared of storing e85. Why? Most people that visit a drag strip, ride mx, have an old hot rod sitting around or mow their own yard keep gasoline in the garage. From experience there's not much difference in what it takes to ignite either, although e85 is much harder to see burn. My concern with storage would be, 1) keeping the fuel clean, no rusty barrel, no crud, 2)transferring and transportation, 3)keeping moisture out of the fuel. Ethanol, like methanol, loves water although not as corrosive as methanol when mixed with water. Also, ethanol can drop the gasoline it is mixed with in favour of water.

If I were to only use race fuel at the strip and wanted the utmost power available I'd keep some $ VP $ in the garage, not e85. If I didn't require the last .025hp, e85 was locally available, and I needed more power, (who doesn't!), e85 would be my choice as it is affordable everyday driveable race fuel.

...just my $.02, YMMV, IMHO, yadda yadda
Well as far as tuning. I would def keep the tune that is on the car right now. Which is tuned on pump. I made 430whp/390wtq on the pump tune and am hoping to hit 500whp on E85. And I got a couple Ideas that I'm going to throw around. Thanks for the advice though!
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:10 PM   #71
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You should not tune for just the e85 available at the time of the tune as the ethanol content will vary with the government mandated seasonal blends. Your tuner should know this and add enough headroom to be safe.

Everybody seems to be scared of storing e85. Why? Most people that visit a drag strip, ride mx, have an old hot rod sitting around or mow their own yard keep gasoline in the garage. From experience there's not much difference in what it takes to ignite either, although e85 is much harder to see burn. My concern with storage would be, 1) keeping the fuel clean, no rusty barrel, no crud, 2)transferring and transportation, 3)keeping moisture out of the fuel. Ethanol, like methanol, loves water although not as corrosive as methanol when mixed with water. Also, ethanol can drop the gasoline it is mixed with in favour of water.

If I were to only use race fuel at the strip and wanted the utmost power available I'd keep some $ VP $ in the garage, not e85. If I didn't require the last .025hp, e85 was locally available, and I needed more power, (who doesn't!), e85 would be my choice as it is affordable everyday driveable race fuel.

...just my $.02, YMMV, IMHO, yadda yadda

yeah, i mean, i can understand some people's concern about it, but i think if you aren't a retard about it, you will be just fine.


E85 has a federal regulation to be E70 at a minimum. So, if his local pump is E70-E75 year round, then this means that his fluctuations at the pump would be much less then others who's local pumps actually do the summer and winter blends...but like you said, if the tuner knows what they are doing, they will be able to have 1 tune that covers all the fluctuations possible.

fyi, i played around with different blends awhile back, and i tested everything from E60-E90. i was able to run the E85 aggressive map all the way down to about E65 before i started seeing detonation. this is mainly because the E85 map i had on there had a target afr of 11.8:1, and as the ethanol content dropped and the gasoline content rose, the afr richened up. with the E85 map on E90, i saw afr of approx 11.7-12.0. with the same map on E65, i saw afr of approx 11.2-11.5. this richening up helps compensate for the reduction of ethanol in the fuel.
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Old 09-26-2012, 11:18 PM   #72
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yeah, i mean, i can understand some people's concern about it, but i think if you aren't a retard about it, you will be just fine.


E85 has a federal regulation to be E70 at a minimum. So, if his local pump is E70-E75 year round, then this means that his fluctuations at the pump would be much less then others who's local pumps actually do the summer and winter blends...but like you said, if the tuner knows what they are doing, they will be able to have 1 tune that covers all the fluctuations possible.

fyi, i played around with different blends awhile back, and i tested everything from E60-E90. i was able to run the E85 aggressive map all the way down to about E65 before i started seeing detonation. this is mainly because the E85 map i had on there had a target afr of 11.8:1, and as the ethanol content dropped and the gasoline content rose, the afr richened up. with the E85 map on E90, i saw afr of approx 11.7-12.0. with the same map on E65, i saw afr of approx 11.2-11.5. this richening up helps compensate for the reduction of ethanol in the fuel.
Exactly, so as long as the car is tuned properly it'll handle it. But I def wanna make sure I'm running within 5% ethanol +/-
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Old 09-27-2012, 01:35 AM   #73
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If your house ever catches fire, you better run like a mother****er.

Install zip lines to your neighbor's house across the street... you'll thank me later.
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:08 AM   #74
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anyone who's house catches on fire should do that...
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:42 AM   #75
k04sti
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ftp://ftp-fc.sc.egov.usda.gov/NJ/par...asyst/fuel.pdf

Not trying to say anything but who is going to inspect your house or even try to prosecute you on keeping a 55 gallon drum? Nobody. Just like the mods on your car are for off road use. Does it matter? No. Nobody is going to pursue such a trivial violation. Just my .02 as a law student.
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