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Old 09-18-2012, 07:40 AM   #1
CrashTestRacer
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Default I need a tuner

I would like to hire someone to help me tune my car. I am set up with romraider, and have logged and flashed my ecu. All the little stuff is out of the way, and I need someone to guide me on what parameters to change.

It's a simple application. Stock 04 wrx with a decatted uppipe. I recently rebuilt my engine and want to make sure that it is running very safely. I am looking to gain smoothness and do not care about adding power. I believe one priority is going to be do get rid of the CL/OL delay.

You can send me an .xml file so that I can log whatever you want to see. I would like to make sure that it is running correctly now with a stock tune before we start changing things.

I program industrial automation for a living and would like to take a hands on approach with this. I need you to make sure we do this right, though. This is one place I am not looking to learn from my mistakes.
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Old 09-20-2012, 08:29 AM   #2
Brock31
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The best thing to do would be to read up on the Romraider site on how to make some useful data logs and them post them here so they can be viewed. At that point suggestions can be made on what to change and how to do it.

If you aren't comfortable with trial and error and possibly learning from mistakes, I'd suggest looking into a tuner.

most of the time, if your car is mechanically sound, you'll be safe when making SMALL changes. Problems arise when large changes are made without a clear understanding of how other parameters are affected. ( IE crank up the boost without adding fuel or raising timing randomly without logging for knock etc...)

Start reading:

http://www.romraider.com/Documentation/GettingStarted

http://www.romraider.com/Documentati...aiderFAQ#toc63

As far as getting a base map goes: http://www.osecuroms.org/ is a good place to start with finding a modded ROM. You have to register on the site.
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:54 PM   #3
Concillian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTestRacer View Post

It's a simple application. Stock 04 wrx with a decatted uppipe. I recently rebuilt my engine and want to make sure that it is running very safely. I am looking to gain smoothness and do not care about adding power. I believe one priority is going to be do get rid of the CL/OL delay.
How did you add an O2 sensor when using the stock downpipe?

Can't do much other than change the CL / OL delays when you're blind to what fueling changes are doing.

Either get a DP + O2 sensor or just buy an OTS map like the XPT offers, though I'm not sure if they have uppipe only maps.
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:34 PM   #4
wrxsubiemod
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I also wanted to learn to tune my own car but there is so much to learn.

I hired Ron aka phatron from phatbotti tuning to tune my car and i learned so much through conversations and actually being able to do things hands on. Told me what to do, and how to do it. So many write up's helping the community and many threads backing up his/their work.

Best learning experience ever
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:43 PM   #5
Speedy Claxton
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Originally Posted by wrxsubiemod View Post
I also wanted to learn to tune my own car but there is so much to learn.

I hired Ron aka phatron from phatbotti tuning to tune my car and i learned so much through conversations and actually being able to do things hands on. Told me what to do, and how to do it. So many write up's helping the community and many threads backing up his/their work.

Best learning experience ever
I also went with Ron. He'll help you out and is a great guy!
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Old 09-23-2012, 10:53 AM   #6
RonW
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i'll chime in too and say that spending the money and going with Ron was perfect. I had tuned with megasquirt 3 on a 2.3L 914 motor in the past so i was familiar with the concepts and methodology and even got fairly familiar with romraider/ecu flash but not sure on what the subaru motors liked and didnt like. going back and forth with ron soon got my motor on the road and he was quit understanding with set up issues that i had since my set up is quite unusual. very fast responses. i had a perfect unpopulated area to do my runs and would just tether my laptop to my phone and send him the logs and with in a few minutes, ive have the next file and instructions on next steps. A++++ 5 starts
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Old 09-24-2012, 09:26 AM   #7
CrashTestRacer
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Here is a log I took on the way to work this morning:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8o...mU4M1Q4THFTU0U

I decided to go ahead and zero out all of the closed loop delay fields. This is the first time the car was driven after the flash.

I noticed some knock correction showing up. It looks like it happened while the engine was running at about 3k when I first started driving down the road.
I did one (tame) 3rd gear pull to 5k after the car warmed up.

What should I be looking for as far as knock? I want to keep a very close eye on this. I just installed these engine bearings and crank and will protect them with my life

I guess for now I will see what I can do on my own with forum guidance. Probably post over in the RomRaider forums, too... If I need more professional help or if I ever do any mods, I will not hesitate to contact Ron.

Thanks for any help you can give me, and the comments so far.
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Old 09-24-2012, 05:18 PM   #8
chappell943
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That log is showing ALOT of knock (usually you want 0 or at max -2 degrees but not often), Because of being at quite low rpm I would say it is an issue with your knock sensor, check to make sure it is properly torqued and you don't have any loose heatshields, also your IAM is only at 8 which is due to you just reflashing the map, when tuning you ideally want this at 16 as with it at 8 the car is running reduced timing across the board.
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:49 PM   #9
CrashTestRacer
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Yeah, it looked like it went right to it's max of 12 degrees correction, but then it decided to undo the changes all at once, and I guess it was fine after that...? Does an engine tend to knock more at low rpm/high load? When I ran WOT from 3k to 5k in third gear later, it did not apply any knock correction, so hopefully it is the sensor or a rattle.

I have to disclose that:
- I do have a heatshield missing a couple screws.
- I just tightened the knock sensor by hand when I put it back on the engine. I snugged it on pretty good.
- there is a screeching noise coming from the turbo with boost when the car is first driven cold. I'm hoping it's an exhaust leak - but could be turbine rubbing on housing.
- there is a hole in the exhaust midpipe that is getting replaced this week.

So with all that going on...who knows. I'll log some more and see what happens.

Why did it remove the correction all at once? Did it end up in a learned table somewhere? Did it switch to using a different part of the some other table that it had no correction for yet, and if I had happened to fall back into the load/rpm/boost that caused the knock later - that the 12 degrees of correction would have come up again? I'm a bit confused with lookup table operation, although I pretty much get the concept - it leaves me with some questions. I'm sure it would be better to remove the correction slowly and monitor the knock sensor as you do it - but using tables to operate means that you first have to knock in many similar circumstances to compile a learned correction table. It just seems less than ideal...and it also seems as though there's a lot I don't know. I know I don't know how this ecu thinks yet...

I'm probably content by just zeroing out the CL/OL delay for now, unless there is something else that a stock tune really got wrong that anyone might suggest addressing? Obviously it is all I can do to keep the car going, anyway
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Old 09-24-2012, 09:01 PM   #10
chappell943
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Firstly I would try get new screws in the heatshield, get a leak test done on your inake, try get the screeching noise diagnosed and fixed, also get the midpipe hole sorted.


Knock sensors are quite sensitive as to how they are torqued down
"The extraction area of the knock sensor cord must
be positioned at a 60" angle relative to the engine rear.
24 N.m (2.4 kgf-m, 17.4 ft-lb) "

Make sure your knock sensor is positioned and torqued correctly, and if you can stay out of boost until these issues are addressed.

It is very unlikely it is real knock but better safe than sorry
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Old 09-24-2012, 10:03 PM   #11
CrashTestRacer
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Got it. Thanks for the torque spec and angle. I had no idea that it had an angle spec. I'll have to dig in there and re-torque it. The other things are getting fixed here shortly.

I'd much rather be safe here. Would I be able to hear or feel engine knock like would be happening if that were true knock?
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:28 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTestRacer View Post
Would I be able to hear or feel engine knock like would be happening if that were true knock?
You wouldn't "feel it" persay. Road noise and loud exhausts might make that hard to distinguish. Not to mention the boxer motor is noisy to begin with. A set of det cans would help pin point a real knock issue.
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Old 09-25-2012, 01:54 PM   #13
renosubby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTestRacer View Post
Yeah, it looked like it went right to it's max of 12 degrees correction, but then it decided to undo the changes all at once, and I guess it was fine after that...? Does an engine tend to knock more at low rpm/high load? When I ran WOT from 3k to 5k in third gear later, it did not apply any knock correction, so hopefully it is the sensor or a rattle.

I have to disclose that:
- I do have a heatshield missing a couple screws.
- I just tightened the knock sensor by hand when I put it back on the engine. I snugged it on pretty good.
- there is a screeching noise coming from the turbo with boost when the car is first driven cold. I'm hoping it's an exhaust leak - but could be turbine rubbing on housing.
- there is a hole in the exhaust midpipe that is getting replaced this week.

So with all that going on...who knows. I'll log some more and see what happens.

Why did it remove the correction all at once? Did it end up in a learned table somewhere? Did it switch to using a different part of the some other table that it had no correction for yet, and if I had happened to fall back into the load/rpm/boost that caused the knock later - that the 12 degrees of correction would have come up again? I'm a bit confused with lookup table operation, although I pretty much get the concept - it leaves me with some questions. I'm sure it would be better to remove the correction slowly and monitor the knock sensor as you do it - but using tables to operate means that you first have to knock in many similar circumstances to compile a learned correction table. It just seems less than ideal...and it also seems as though there's a lot I don't know. I know I don't know how this ecu thinks yet...

I'm probably content by just zeroing out the CL/OL delay for now, unless there is something else that a stock tune really got wrong that anyone might suggest addressing? Obviously it is all I can do to keep the car going, anyway
ok well you need to torque that and make sure its torqued right, im not sure if you torques the rest of the more or made sure it was good and tight. but that is essential!
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Old 09-28-2012, 11:16 AM   #14
CrashTestRacer
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I got the knock sensor on correctly now. I had it at entirely the wrong angle. This is what it should look like (when standing on the drivers side of the car). I had it inline with the cylinder which I'm sure ends up picking up a lot of normal engine vibration.



I got a P0129 code after I started the car up again. If anyone searches for this, I'll mention that I have gathered that this code basically means that the atmospheric pressure sensor (in the ecu) and the Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor do not agree when the car is not running (they should pretty much agree at that point) All I can figure is that when I was in there taking off the intercooler (and had the radio on and everything powered up on the car) that the MAP sensor blipped or something triggering this code. I reset it and drove around the block and the code has not come up again yet.

I got the exhaust fixed, and all the heatshield fasteners on. I did a 3rd gear pull this morning and got no knock, but my IAM is still at 8 from resetting the ecu to clear the P0129 code. Once the ecu settles itself in, I may finally be ready to do some more pulls and datalogs to see where I should go from here.

Thanks for the help that I've gotten so far. It's fun to finally get into the programming of the ecu. I program automated manufacturing machines, so this is fun to see what's going on in the ecu. It's a pretty complex little program in there - but it's all making sense so far.
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Old 09-28-2012, 06:26 PM   #15
wrxsubiemod
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Good work
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Old 09-29-2012, 03:48 PM   #16
Concillian
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2 ways to get the IAM up:

1) brake + gas to get boost in the 3500 RPM range while driving. 10 seconds of 5-8psi will cause the IAM to shoot up to 16.

2) change the IAM in the ROM to 16.

Both of these obviously have safety issues if you reset on bad gas, but if you know what you're doing and re-flashing often, it's not too dangerous to set the ROM to default to 16 instead of 8.
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Old 09-30-2012, 03:02 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrxsubiemod View Post
Good work
Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
2 ways to get the IAM up:

1) brake + gas to get boost in the 3500 RPM range while driving. 10 seconds of 5-8psi will cause the IAM to shoot up to 16.

2) change the IAM in the ROM to 16.

Both of these obviously have safety issues if you reset on bad gas, but if you know what you're doing and re-flashing often, it's not too dangerous to set the ROM to default to 16 instead of 8.
Good tip. It went to 16 on my way home from work and then decided to go back down to 14. I also got a whole lot of knock correction again while cruising - so it looks like I still have something going on. I'll know more once I have a chance to go over the logs.
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