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Old 10-17-2012, 06:18 PM   #276
pgh88
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I like the current Fonz with the exception of the plastic cooler interior but that is fixed with the identical interior as the Cross T and Impreza. Even though they are based off the same platform it would of been nice to see the Cross T and the 14 Forester with a different interior. The current spy pics IMO show a less aggressive almost boring look compared to the current Forester (at least the front shot non XT) so I'm guessing a 2.5 with DI/CVT and plenty of refinement to compete in this crowded segment.
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Old 10-17-2012, 06:39 PM   #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
A higher up Subaru rep told us that the next XT would have look differences similar to the old Sports.

The proof in the pudding is 4 straight years of sales increase. The ONLY manufacturer to do it; AND, 25% YTD over last years record pace. Next year will surely pass this year then we get another new Outback/Legacy.

You compare to Land Rover. Really? You compare to a Cherokee SRT-8. Really? You want to spend that much on a Subaru? I am sure MOST of Subaru's customers don't.
You missed the point entirely and completely.

Range Rover Sport, Explorer Sport EcoBoost, and Jeep GC SRT8, Porsche Cayenne, and BMW X5-M are performance SUVs.

I didn't say that Forester should cost 60+ grand.

I said Forester *XT* should be an affordable performance vehicle, in that idiom, but at Subaru prices. Legacy Spec.B to STI price points, with similar power and amenities to those vehicles.... considering that the parts all fit.

Quote:
I agree with some things you say and disagree with some things you say; but I think it's funny when you say Subaru is "failing" when they haven't ever been better!
I didn't say they are failing. I said that they are selling out, and are leaving the people who made Subaru a nameplate to consider when looking for AWD performance.

People who bought the original USDM WRX when it was finally offered here. People who bought the SG Forester XT and XT Sport. People who bought the BL Legacy GT, and the BP Outback XT.

It may be another round, if the next WRX and STI is too small and too focused to appeal to every-day drivers who currently have bought WRXs and STIs.

Quote:
As for getting rid of the cars like the Outback XT and Legacy GT. I have a feeling we'll get something back. They just had to develop the DIT. I am also sure they would have loved to have kept the Legacy GT......if it would have sold better. It didn't, so they relegated it to sold order status until the decision was given to kill it.

Subaru did it "your" way for a long time and wasn't as profitable. They saw the light and are growing. Maybe they will grow to the point they can make things you'll like again.
They don't need to abandon their performance enthusiasts to grow.

Nobody is suggesting that they cancel mainstream models, or offer fewer trim lines or model lines.

I am suggesting that they offer MORE of them, or at least make the ones they have BETTER.

People who crow about Subaru's sales never answer when I ask what if a better Forester XT would have sold 30-35% more, rather than 25%.

What if an XV Crosstrek with an FB25, or an FA20DIT engine option, in addition to the base FB20 trim, would have made a MUCH bigger splash, and were getting some performance hype like BRZ has been?

Would the people who are so excited about *anything* Subaru puts out, be any less excited about even better, class leading products?

Right now, say there are "X" number of people excited, and "Y" number of people like me, who are under-whelmed by this new milquetoast and lack of AWD performance, and aren't in the market for a RWD car.

Right now, Subaru is only going for "X" sales, not X + Y sales. X people would still buy anyway. Y people, or at least ME, are getting tired of being disappointed by fewer and fewer compelling options in the Subaru lineup.

All they would have to do to get some of that Y number... is actually make Forester XT something interesting. Or make an XT crosstrek model...

I am resigning myself that an AWD sport coupe isn't going to happen... but my fall-back position of a performance-oriented, practical-body CUV isn't happening, either.

There isn't a single new Subaru that can replace my Legacy GT Limited 5-speed right now. That is sad, and that isn't how Subaru should be. WRX Limited is ugly inside and out by comparison, and not any more practical for being uglier.

Sales is NOT the only measure of success, especially when selling out.

"A company that makes only money is poor indeed." - Henry Ford.

Last edited by HipToBeSquare; 10-17-2012 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 10-17-2012, 06:58 PM   #278
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weren't you going to buy a used Forester? Emphasis on the word used of course.
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:19 PM   #279
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I was hoping that maybe 2014 would be compelling enough to make it worth buying new.

Based on the looks, and the likelihood of the specs of FB25 and FA20DIT likely getting CVTs, and possibly ONLY CVTs... no.

And I would have to give up so many amenities and so much engine output to go with a 5-speed Forester... that I am not sure if I would like spending 20-23K on that.

Frankly a 5-seat 3.6 Tribeca is looking better. Better looks than Outback. Better power and towing than Forester. Better wheel fitments. Better interior. Better AWD system.

And frankly, the Tribeca's depreciation is such that it is financially stupid to buy new, when buying just a few years old, you can save probably 10-15 thousand dollars. Plus the new ones are no longer offered as 5-passenger. I am barely ever going to need a 3rd or 4th passenger, let alone a 6th or 7th... but at least it will haul some things.

10-15K would buy me a quite nice sideline/backup car.

Not like there is a new compelling Tribeca replacement coming, either.

It was supposed to be a nice new sporty AWD coupe, with a cheap backup older SUV. Now it is barely looking like a nice newer sporty AWD CUV, and a cheap backup older sporty coupe. Filling the nice newer sporty AWD daily driver role is getting harder and harder to fill. All the good stuff is going for luxury prices, and the mainstream stuff is getting more mundane.

The 2014 Forester could have been it. It isn't looking like it. Same milquetoast as everything else.

I don't reward that with my dollars that I have to work to earn, and if it is going to be milquetoast, I may as well save my money. Multiple tens of thousands of dollars is not a trifle to just hand over for boring product.
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:27 PM   #280
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oh...so you weren't talking about buying a used 2.5l manual transmission Forester recently... that must have been another person I was thinking of that goes by the same name.

I'm not surprised to hear you talk about buying another used car.
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:29 PM   #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
I was hoping that maybe 2014 would be compelling enough to make it worth buying new.

Based on the looks, and the likelihood of the specs of FB25 and FA20DIT likely getting CVTs, and possibly ONLY CVTs... no.

And I would have to give up so many amenities and so much engine output to go with a 5-speed Forester... that I am not sure if I would like spending 20-23K on that.

Frankly a 5-seat 3.6 Tribeca is looking better. Better looks than Outback. Better power and towing than Forester. Better wheel fitments. Better interior. Better AWD system.

And frankly, the Tribeca's depreciation is such that it is financially stupid to buy new, when buying just a few years old, you can save probably 10-15 thousand dollars. Plus the new ones are no longer offered as 5-passenger. I am barely ever going to need a 3rd or 4th passenger, let alone a 6th or 7th... but at least it will haul some things.

10-15K would buy me a quite nice sideline/backup car.

Not like there is a new compelling Tribeca replacement coming, either.

It was supposed to be a nice new sporty AWD coupe, with a cheap backup older SUV. Now it is barely looking like a nice newer sporty AWD CUV, and a cheap backup older sporty coupe. Filling the nice newer sporty AWD daily driver role is getting harder and harder to fill. All the good stuff is going for luxury prices, and the mainstream stuff is getting more mundane.

The 2014 Forester could have been it. It isn't looking like it. Same milquetoast as everything else.

I don't reward that with my dollars that I have to work to earn, and if it is going to be milquetoast, I may as well save my money. Multiple tens of thousands of dollars is not a trifle to just hand over for boring product.
Work hard and get a good job, saves the headache.

That's how I think, keep working hard to get a high paying job. Opens to more options.

Anyways, the new Forester will be a hit, looks good. I'm probably leaning more towards the Outback though.
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:42 PM   #282
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PLEASE ST0P FEEDING the TR0LL!
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:41 PM   #283
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Looks like it'll be nice.

Probably between the new Forester and the CX-5 diesel for teh wife.
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:46 PM   #284
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I think one of the points people have been complaining about is that by going mainstream they might follow Toyota's trend. Toyota used to have the Supra, the Celica, etc. But ever since Toyota found out that bland and mainstream is the way to go, they didn't really have a reason to appeal to the minority when the majority would pay for their cars. You go where the money is and enthusiasts are not there anymore ;D.

I can't remember the last time I saw a Celica or Supra outside of my brother's garage. I am a little bit worried Subaru won't make an entry into the "sporty" or "performance" segment until after they've achieved their EPA ratings, at least for the USDM. I'm more worried it'll be too long and Subaru will fall face first when they make (if ever) their comeback to that part of the segment.

I'd really rather stay with Subaru and their turbocharged engines with the AWD rather than go to Kia, Hyundai, or Nissan for some AWD system that hasn't been developed for very long (and is proven to be subpar in the past). However if the trend continues, as usual, people will choose what to leave and go where loyalty and reliability is (including AWD). I can agree with people who start to rant or express their opinions of Subaru leaving their roots. The Legacy GT, as far as I know, is still offered in other markets. While Ford, Chevy, etc. are all going turbo's, Acura and Subaru seem to be going the other direction in terms of what is offered in the USDM.

Of course, Subaru hasn't SAID they're leaving the WRX and STI behind because obviously that is what Subaru is also known for and I'm sure they don't want the newer generations to forget that either. But the Forester and Outback, performance models at any rate, are more of a niche. Something easy on the eyes that isn't trying too hard to be different is what Subaru's forecasts predicts so I'm sure they want to keep up this winning streak rather than go back to the old days.

So far I'm holding out for trading up my 2012 Subaru Forester XT for a 2014 because of EyeSight and I'm curious what other bells and whistles come with it (interior styling and comfort). I'm holding out for the new turbocharged engine and transmission choices but, if they're the same as the last generation, a test drive will be a deal breaker in the end. I don't think I can pass up EyeSight though since some days it seems like there's more and more bad drivers out on the roads. I'm also holding out for the Outback redesign since my biological mother needs a new car eventually and she's not the most attentive driver.

BUT I WILL absolutely miss my:


Hood scoop... and all around good looks of the 2009-2013 generation. From what I can tell of the images, I don't really like the taillights on the 2014 but I need a closer look. Hopefully they aren't narrowed down to two colors, red and clear; I hate turn signals on cars that aren't yellow or orange. As long as the looks don't interfere too much with the visibility, the turbocharged engine with AWD is mated to an automatic/CVT, and the price point matches the quality, I'll be with Subaru for the the time being. ;o

Last edited by A W; 10-17-2012 at 11:24 PM.
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:04 PM   #285
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^^Good lookin' rig^^
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:07 PM   #286
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Dude, I read your posts and just shake my head, get over it and move on



Quote:
Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
No, I am not. Killing most of their performance options is akin to Toyota killing off MR2, Supra, Celica, and all of it's performance models... and going beige for a decade... then having to have Subaru build an affordable performance model for them, because they no longer have the platforms to do that.



Outback, Legacy, Impreza, Crosstrek are not performance nameplates, but their performance variants, are all dead, save the remaining WRX/STI.

If the WRX STI is not everything to every Subaru performance enthusiast, which no model can really do by itself... Subaru will lose performance buyers, and have already.



I have already mentioned toyota... What about Honda. They killed the NSX. They killed the S2000. They killed the RSX/Integra coupe. They killed the Prelude.

What does Honda have for loyal honda performance enthusiasts? Civic SI? CRZ is failing to live up to basic expectations.

Yes, manufacturers DO make decisions that end up pissing of loyal enthusiasts, whether that was the rationale or not.

Usually it is avarice for increased appliance sales... and love of money eclipsing the love of producing good products WORTH good money, at a higher value quotient. Sometimes more value at a small price increase is better than bottom-line thinking that is causing all of these companies to copy each other like the shallow end of the inbred automotive gene-pool.



Those do sell at many times the volume... which is why they have better economies of scale, and can offer better appliances for lower prices than Subaru can.

Subaru USED to produce something at least uniquely capable to give it a value-added edge over other appliances.



Those are marketing talking points with no backup. Name how the 2013 Forester is any better at those things than a 2013 Escape, CRV, or CX5, Kia Sportage SX Turbo, or the rest of that class.

Pre-2009, Forester XT Sport with symmetrical AWD and turbo power, when others didn't have anything close... you may have had a point. A lot has happened in 4-5 model years since then, and Forester hasn't progressed much, in terms of tech... and it lost the manual gearbox on the XT.

Now, they all have Turbo 4 or V6 power, in excess of the current XT, or the EU FA20DIT 2013 Forester lead-in, with 240hp.



They increased sales, year over year for Subaru. That doesn't prove that they gained marketshare in that segment, with new products coming from many other companies, that have eclipsed Forester in the last couple of model years.

The only reason I am considering SH Forester, is because it offers a manual gearbox, but I am NOT HAPPY that it is only on the base and premium 2.5X, with barely more than HALF the horsepower of my current AP-tuned Legacy GT Limited.

That is a HUGE step down in power, and amenities, just to keep a stick shift and symmetrical AWD, and avoid the 4EAT/active AWD.

It isn't as if Outback XT or Legacy GT still exist, either. A better Forester would not be stepping on non-existent toes.



You say that... but you still haven't demonstrably answered how the 2013, or extrapolated likely 2014 Forester is so very competitive.

Just because Subaru will sell out their limited production capacity, doesn't mean they are beating their competition in the segment, and giving them a reason to buy forester ABOVE those other vehicles, rather than just being a marketplace also-ran.

Being just another on-par choice, if it can manage to be on-par, doesn't mean it won't lose popularity when some other product DOES set itself above the competition. Subaru could set itself up, it just isn't.

Real substance is what kept Subaru buyers buying Subaru in the past. Now, I cannot point to anything aside from that small corner of manual gearbox availability that sets 2009-2013 Forester out from a Jeep Patriot (no AWD with a manual), or a pre-13 Escape/Mariner/Tribute that my wife really likes (no manual at all, but optional V6 power)

Mazda CX5 is slated to be a better performer, and better looking than 2014 Forester.
Escape and other cars in the segment are marketing ease of use with optional features like keyless entry, possibly keyless start, and foot-triggered lift-gate, and other assistants... which Forester has NONE of.
RAV4 V6 and Sportage SX Turbo both offer far more power than Forester XT, including the FA20DIT in europe this year.
Many in the segment offer better looking interiors.
Nissans also use CVTs, and everybody offers automatics, if Forester goes all-CVT, and eliminates the manual gearbox option any further.

Considering the lack of suspension quality in my 2005 Legacy, and it's lineage into the more modern Subaru Impreza/Forester line with SH and GR, I am not so enamored with Subaru's durability. it is clunking and rough less than a year after I just replaced all the dampers a second time, and several of the damaged rubber bushings in the front control arms... on a 90K mile car, and it still rides rough. Not sporty... just rough, and loudly clattering.

I want to see the proof in the pudding, not just hold-over talking points from years past, when Subaru actually offered some compelling things.

I WANT to like Forester more than any of it's competition. It just has too many excuses for why it isn't more compelling point for point with other vehicles in the segment.

I bought a BL Legacy GT, because it DID stand head and shoulders above any other mainstream mid-size sedan in it's segment, save perhaps Mazdaspeed 6. That didn't make Legacy 2.5i/3.0R less appealing. That and Outback XT Limited didn't make Outback 2.5i/3.0R less of a Subaru-best-seller. Yet they are both GONE, Outback is ugly, Legacy is dowdy, and are no longer on ANY enthusiast's radar, and have no reason to be.

03-08 Forester DID used to stand out above it's then-more-sparse mid-size/compact CUV segment, and I think SH is even more handsome, and a bit more practically sized, but it's not a stand-out anymore. Forester has technologically stood still, while every other product in that segment has come on strong, because the segment is popular, and has a CAFE fleet average advantage over passenger cars that aren't "light truck" classified. Now, with 2014... it isn't even handsome anymore, either.
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:13 PM   #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgh88 View Post
I like the current Fonz with the exception of the plastic cooler interior but that is fixed with the identical interior as the Cross T and Impreza. Even though they are based off the same platform it would of been nice to see the Cross T and the 14 Forester with a different interior. The current spy pics IMO show a less aggressive almost boring look compared to the current Forester (at least the front shot non XT) so I'm guessing a 2.5 with DI/CVT and plenty of refinement to compete in this crowded segment.




Quote:
Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
You missed the point entirely and completely.

Range Rover Sport, Explorer Sport EcoBoost, and Jeep GC SRT8, Porsche Cayenne, and BMW X5-M are performance SUVs.

I didn't say that Forester should cost 60+ grand.

I said Forester *XT* should be an affordable performance vehicle, in that idiom, but at Subaru prices. Legacy Spec.B to STI price points, with similar power and amenities to those vehicles.... considering that the parts all fit.
For the price of the Forester XT, it is fine. For what YOU want, go spend the money to get it. There is NO point in comparing what you think Subaru should build to things that cost significantly more. It would not sell enough to justify and THAT is why they got rid of the 5 speed XT. Wasn't selling.


You also speak as if Subaru "performance" cars have been around longer than they actually have. For the 43 years Subaru has been in the US, they have sold a worthwhile "performance" car for how many of those? The 80s turbos obviously don't count. How many model years did the original XT have a proper engine? The SVX(unfortunately) was executed poorly; and, the WRX has been around only 10 years. The Legacy GT less than that. Much less than that. The economy forced people away from higher priced premium fueled lower mpg rated cars which killed sales of the cars "we" want. Sucks yeah, but what can you do?

I ask that you just stop comparing Subarus to cars from companies that are either much larger and can do certain things(Cherokee SRT-8) and especially higher priced companies that their customers have the money and expectations(Land Rover, BMW). I believe the next XT will be plenty competitive for it's price point.
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:44 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
One of the many faces of a salesman obviously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
I ask that you just stop comparing Subarus to cars from companies that are either much larger and can do certain things(Cherokee SRT-8) and especially higher priced companies that their customers have the money and expectations(Land Rover, BMW). I believe the next XT will be plenty competitive for it's price point.
http://blogs.insideline.com/straight...-in-japan.html

It's no Cherokee SRT-8 but it's nice to know it's there. Audi Allroad competitor if anything. Maybe someone in this thread could use it for eyecandy. I love the torque to HP ratio on that Legacy GT though. ;D </3 lower torque to higher HP ratios.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmunds InsideLane
Now's the point in the post when we start whining about the far less satisfying engine options on the U.S.-spec 2013 Legacy. But we're confident that tightening fuel economy standards will force Subaru to offer this engine here eventually. FHI says it's 20 percent more fuel-efficient than the old 2.5-liter turbo.

If true, that works out to something in the neighborhood of 25 mpg combined. That's good for a heavy AWD car -- so good we'll be very surprised if this engine doesn't replace the underperforming 3.6-liter H6 engine in the Legacy and Outback (and Tribeca?) come the 2014-2015 model year.
Hey Hip, you wouldn't happen to be an auto journalist in disguise on Edmunds, would you? LOL
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:25 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by A W
I think one of the points people have been complaining about is that by going mainstream they might follow Toyota's trend. Toyota used to have the Supra, the Celica, etc. But ever since Toyota found out that bland and mainstream is the way to go, they didn't really have a reason to appeal to the minority when the majority would pay for their cars. You go where the money is and enthusiasts are not there anymore ;D.

I can't remember the last time I saw a Celica or Supra outside of my brother's garage. I am a little bit worried Subaru won't make an entry into the "sporty" or "performance" segment until after they've achieved their EPA ratings, at least for the USDM. I'm more worried it'll be too long and Subaru will fall face first when they make (if ever) their comeback to that part of the segment.

I'd really rather stay with Subaru and their turbocharged engines with the AWD rather than go to Kia, Hyundai, or Nissan for some AWD system that hasn't been developed for very long (and is proven to be subpar in the past). However if the trend continues, as usual, people will choose what to leave and go where loyalty and reliability is (including AWD). I can agree with people who start to rant or express their opinions of Subaru leaving their roots. The Legacy GT, as far as I know, is still offered in other markets. While Ford, Chevy, etc. are all going turbo's, Acura and Subaru seem to be going the other direction in terms of what is offered in the USDM.

Of course, Subaru hasn't SAID they're leaving the WRX and STI behind because obviously that is what Subaru is also known for and I'm sure they don't want the newer generations to forget that either. But the Forester and Outback, performance models at any rate, are more of a niche. Something easy on the eyes that isn't trying too hard to be different is what Subaru's forecasts predicts so I'm sure they want to keep up this winning streak rather than go back to the old days.

So far I'm holding out for trading up my 2012 Subaru Forester XT for a 2014 because of EyeSight and I'm curious what other bells and whistles come with it (interior styling and comfort). I'm holding out for the new turbocharged engine and transmission choices but, if they're the same as the last generation, a test drive will be a deal breaker in the end. I don't think I can pass up EyeSight though since some days it seems like there's more and more bad drivers out on the roads. I'm also holding out for the Outback redesign since my biological mother needs a new car eventually and she's not the most attentive driver.

BUT I WILL absolutely miss my:

Hood scoop... and all around good looks of the 2009-2013 generation. From what I can tell of the images, I don't really like the taillights on the 2014 but I need a closer look. Hopefully they aren't narrowed down to two colors, red and clear; I hate turn signals on cars that aren't yellow or orange. As long as the looks don't interfere too much with the visibility, the turbocharged engine with AWD is mated to an automatic/CVT, and the price point matches the quality, I'll be with Subaru for the the time being. ;o
^^Word
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Old 10-18-2012, 06:34 AM   #290
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Early morning screw up......see below.
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Old 10-18-2012, 06:37 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by A W View Post
One of the many faces of a salesman obviously.



http://blogs.insideline.com/straight...-in-japan.html

It's no Cherokee SRT-8 but it's nice to know it's there. Audi Allroad competitor if anything. Maybe someone in this thread could use it for eyecandy. I love the torque to HP ratio on that Legacy GT though. ;D </3 lower torque to higher HP ratios.
Just not understanding why Cross T? Crosstrek is one word for starters. Adding trek would've taken pretty much the same amount of time to type as "space, capital T". Heck, XV would have been quicker and, at least, is an actual part of the name.


As for that Legacy DIT, I really hope it gets here. Would be something to have something similar to a Maxima. Would be great.
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Old 10-18-2012, 09:18 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
Just not understanding why Cross T? Crosstrek is one word for starters. Adding trek would've taken pretty much the same amount of time to type as "space, capital T". Heck, XV would have been quicker and, at least, is an actual part of the name.
Lighten up J Wreck Same as Suby, soobie, scoobie or Rex. It is more fun when you make up your own names!
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Old 10-18-2012, 11:05 AM   #293
HipToBeSquare
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Originally Posted by A W View Post
BUT I WILL absolutely miss my:


Hood scoop... and all around good looks of the 2009-2013 generation.
That is a good looking CUV.

The pictures we've seen of the 2014... I don't think it looks as good as this.

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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
For the price of the Forester XT, it is fine. For what YOU want, go spend the money to get it. There is NO point in comparing what you think Subaru should build to things that cost significantly more. It would not sell enough to justify and THAT is why they got rid of the 5 speed XT. Wasn't selling.
Yeah. Right. Try to find an SG 5-speed XT. See how much more it costs than an automatic, because they are STILL in demand.

If it was anything like the 5-speed Legacy GT, or Outback XT... it didn't sell, because it was almost NEVER in stock anywhere. You can't sell a lot of vehicles that have no exposure. I had to search out a 5-speed Legacy GT.

Quote:
You also speak as if Subaru "performance" cars have been around longer than they actually have. For the 43 years Subaru has been in the US, they have sold a worthwhile "performance" car for how many of those? The 80s turbos obviously don't count. How many model years did the original XT have a proper engine? The SVX(unfortunately) was executed poorly; and, the WRX has been around only 10 years. The Legacy GT less than that. Much less than that. The economy forced people away from higher priced premium fueled lower mpg rated cars which killed sales of the cars "we" want. Sucks yeah, but what can you do?
What can you do? How about NOT LAY DOWN and praise Subaru for offering boredom instead of excitement? Not speaking is speaking, and tacit acceptance.

And SVX was executed well, but expensively by being so unique from other Subaru technical platforms. It was done as well as they could have, and is screwed together better than my 2005 Legacy is. The transmission is a let down, but they didn't have a transaxle ready for that car, which they do now.

Quote:
I ask that you just stop comparing Subarus to cars from companies that are either much larger and can do certain things(Cherokee SRT-8) and especially higher priced companies that their customers have the money and expectations(Land Rover, BMW). I believe the next XT will be plenty competitive for it's price point.
If Subaru is GROWING to be like larger companies, they had better step up and ACT like larger companies.

I would ask that you quit making excuses for Subaru, and start actually expecting them to sell compelling cars to customers as they used to, not just expect customers to buy whatever cars they deign to put out. It is called competition for a reason, and Subaru is barely competing with others, and everyone seems to be fixated on their own internal sales numbers, not marketshare in context with other companies.

I believe most people will settle for what they are offered, and tell themselves that it is good, because nobody wants to think that they spent money on something that should have been better for that money.

As enthusiasts, we should be the ones NOT settling, and asking for what we want. The appliance buyers will follow and buy even if Subaru does offer something that is as good as Subaru is capable of building... and they are capable of building much better than milquetoast boring appliances.

Last edited by HipToBeSquare; 10-18-2012 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 10-18-2012, 11:41 AM   #294
SCRAPPYDO
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As enthusiasts we make up less than 1% of the market. The fact that Subaru cares about us at all is amazing. The 1% will never control the other 99%. The majority with all their money control what subaru builds. Bland sells in huge numbers, epic numbers.

Bitch and moan all you want. But Subaru cares more about the 99% than the performance enthusiast. We are not a loud enough voice as our desires are not necessities, they are wants and luxuries particular to very individual tastes.

Subaru builds great cars ,and the fact that their are any performance versions is a revelation in this day and age. The younger generations just do not care about cars like the Gen Xers and Gen Yers do. This is a whole generation of kids that have been brought up to think all cars are polluters and evil and kill the planet. Performance cars are going to dry up due to CAFE requirements and lack of demand. They will not vanish, but I think variety will go away.

As the 1%ers, we as enthusiasts, should be the ones settling. We should not be driving the market plans for companies. Any company that puts the desires of the 1% ahead of the mainstream 99% is not going to be around long.

The good news is there are literally hundreds of thousands of great used cars for enthusiasts to choose from. Pickup an Autotrader, have a beer and chillout.

CLIFFNOTES:

Subaru does not care about what YOU WANT. Ask until you are blue in the face, pound sand, cry and scream until you cannot talk. Your one voice simply does not matter. It is drowned out by the sound of bland cars flying off the lots in record numbers. As far as subaru is concerned... your needs have been met. Either buy it or do not. But your quixotic obsession of telling every body on NASIOC is absurd.

Your time is better spent writing one letter a day to subaru for the rest of your life.

Last edited by SCRAPPYDO; 10-18-2012 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 10-18-2012, 11:51 AM   #295
left footed whooten
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Scrappy speaks the truth. Us enthusiasts don't spend the money on new Subarus, we buy used mostly (Ive had 5 used, 2 new) and though we have some influence, and should, but when it comes down to what sells and what doesnt, numbers dont lie. If Honda catered to enthusiasts, there would be tons of type r and nsx manufactured and not sold. Its a company, they need to make money and stay in business, not lose their asses catering to enthusiasts that, numbers wise, dont generate the sales.
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Old 10-18-2012, 11:54 AM   #296
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Maybe it is just me, but the '14 Forester looked better in the leaked brochure than these leaked spy shots from the factory. Guess I will have to wait for more pictures or when I can see one on the dealers lot to make the final judgement.
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Old 10-18-2012, 12:05 PM   #297
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Please then explain to me why Ford Raptor and other performance enthusiast vehicles are offered, and in some cases far outsell their initial expectations.

How did Subaru have a block-buster when the initial WRX was offered in the US market?

Lip-service to enthusiasts doesn't carry much weight. Bold New Graphics don't count much.

But something truly compelling, and class leading, or even game-changing products DO sell because they raise the bar above what is offered previously, and they generate enthusiasm that spreads beyond just the enthusiasts.

A new vehicle that pushes the envelope demonstrably beyond what a more affordable, depreciated used vehicle offers, is what gets enthusiasts to buy new, rather than just picking up a nice older vehicle that meets an enthusiast's criteria, and saving the money for modifications or restoration, or another car in the garage. Enthusiasts are more likely to be involved enough to do the math on excitement per dollar.

A new boring vehicle doesn't meet very many enthusiasts's criteria, and the appliance buyers can be fickle, and move on to the next shiny new model from some other brand.

And if some other brand actually does produce something compelling, Subaru, Honda, and others will lose out on marketshare if they are only producing appliances for the appliance buyers who buy cars like they buy washing machines, whatever looks good on the showroom floor, the weekend they decide to go shopping.

Not having performance models in stock, on hand, that day, means that the appliance buyers never see them, and don't happen to help us enthusiasts out by buying a few more units, when some appliance buyers like the look, and the power of the enthusiast model that they see on the showroom floor. Doesn't happen if they aren't on the showroom floor, or if they don't exist.

Nobody ever saw the Legacy GT. Barely anybody saw the 07-08 Forester XT Sport. Even WRXs and WRX STIs are not that commonly in stock, and sell mostly on their reputation alone.

Last edited by HipToBeSquare; 10-18-2012 at 12:16 PM.
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Old 10-18-2012, 12:28 PM   #298
left footed whooten
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I know better than to try to talk to you.....
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Old 10-18-2012, 12:54 PM   #299
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Just shut up Hip! No one is ever gonna make you happy and you've polluted this thread enough with your drivel!!!
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Old 10-18-2012, 01:05 PM   #300
HipToBeSquare
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Roll over and enjoy your milquetoast that you so readily accept, then.
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