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Old 01-29-2013, 01:41 AM   #2001
gathermewool
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Well, since we're already off-topic:

I hit a few consecutive patches of black ice the other day on an off-ramp, just after up-shifting to 4th gear at 65 mph, as I usually do, since it allows me to engine-brake all the way through the ramp and have a little bit of fun through the mini-S-turn.

Anyway, I learned long ago not to brake or add too much pedal while losing traction in a turn, so I modulated the throttle and I swear it gave me chills to feel the VDC grab the car and point me straight again. Anyway, had I braked hard, past the threshold for ABS, i might possibly have gone off the road. The same might be true had I turned TC AND VDC off (I rarely do.)

I have Blizzaks, which obviously helped tremendously, and I consider myself an average driver, but what saved my butt was being in gear, modulating the throttle, letting the VDC figure out where traction was. With that said, had I up-shifted to 4th gear AFTER I had entered the turn it might be a different situation, since the massive shift in weight would probably have upset the balance enough to kick VDC in the face.

Back on topic:

Come 2016, I plan to pick up a leftover 2015 Forester. If I feel particularly spendy, I'll wait and buy a 2016 XT, which would be the bees knees!
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Old 01-29-2013, 02:49 AM   #2002
A W
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Originally Posted by gathermewool View Post
Well, since we're already off-topic:

I hit a few consecutive patches of black ice the other day on an off-ramp, just after up-shifting to 4th gear at 65 mph, as I usually do, since it allows me to engine-brake all the way through the ramp and have a little bit of fun through the mini-S-turn.

Anyway, I learned long ago not to brake or add too much pedal while losing traction in a turn, so I modulated the throttle and I swear it gave me chills to feel the VDC grab the car and point me straight again. Anyway, had I braked hard, past the threshold for ABS, i might possibly have gone off the road. The same might be true had I turned TC AND VDC off (I rarely do.)

I have Blizzaks, which obviously helped tremendously, and I consider myself an average driver, but what saved my butt was being in gear, modulating the throttle, letting the VDC figure out where traction was. With that said, had I up-shifted to 4th gear AFTER I had entered the turn it might be a different situation, since the massive shift in weight would probably have upset the balance enough to kick VDC in the face.

Back on topic:

Come 2016, I plan to pick up a leftover 2015 Forester. If I feel particularly spendy, I'll wait and buy a 2016 XT, which would be the bees knees!
VDC, in that instance, would have braked more aggressively after you shifted up. It was already engaged and intervening to begin with. At that point it wouldn't have been as bad as you imagine. Had VDC not engaged and you did upshift only to have VDC act after, yes, you would have most likely ended up worse. Getting the VDC to engage on the Forester (given the weight of the Forester) depends on the situation as always but I've noticed it turns on after you notice it.

FYI as far as the Forester is concerned, turning "off" the VDC only turns off a portion of it. The stability control will still be engaged whether you leave it on or turn it off. It will still brake individual wheels to assist you in regaining control of the vehicle. It just won't kill or throttle engine power in an effort to help you regain power which you did yourself in your situation (in your STI).
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Old 01-29-2013, 03:03 AM   #2003
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VDC, in that instance, would have braked more aggressively after you shifted up. It was already engaged and intervening to begin with. At that point it wouldn't have been as bad as you imagine. Had VDC not engaged and you did upshift only to have VDC act after, yes, you would have most likely ended up worse. Getting the VDC to engage on the Forester (given the weight of the Forester) depends on the situation as always but I've noticed it turns on after you notice it.

FYI as far as the Forester is concerned, turning "off" the VDC only turns off a portion of it. The stability control will still be engaged whether you leave it on or turn it off. It will still brake individual wheels to assist you in regaining control of the vehicle. It just won't kill or throttle engine power in an effort to help you regain power which you did yourself in your situation (in your STI).
Interesting, and it makes the most sense to leave it in "traction" mode, since that's probably the safest bet for the majority of drivers. The only time I've turned everything off, is during my first and only auto-x. Maybe if I was a better driver it would have helped, but I felt like the VDC was too aggressively trying to smooth out my learning curve, making the experience of taking the car to its limits rather...controlled.

Also, WRT my little black ice experience: while it felt as if the whole thing occurred over a long period of time, I'm sure it was more like 1-2 seconds in reality. That's the part that gave me the chills - I pointed the wheel in the right direction and it found its way there. So, considering that I'm no pro rally-x driver, adding more variables to the situation, regardless of how easy they are to figure out AFTER the fact, may have caused major issues DURING the fact had my car not been there to help me out.
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Old 01-29-2013, 03:27 AM   #2004
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Sorry if I've missed it, but do you mind listing out the trim and options you're shooting for?
Well again this is for my girl friend who is a nurse. we plan of having this car for a long long time. she is a nurse so she has to get to work and get home safe. I am most likely going to get the premium trim level with the all weather package. I love the AWP, it came standard on my 2012 impreza. and that is it for options, accessories is a whole other list. homelink mirror, rear cargo tray, back seat protector, and aftermarket floor mats. that will probably cover it. it is really down to this or the outback. they both almost fall under the same category for SUV, same price range, same packages so still reading and deciding. as long as it a subaru
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Old 01-29-2013, 03:28 AM   #2005
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Also, WRT my little black ice experience: while it felt as if the whole thing occurred over a long period of time, I'm sure it was more like 1-2 seconds in reality. That's the part that gave me the chills - I pointed the wheel in the right direction and it found its way there. So, considering that I'm no pro rally-x driver, adding more variables to the situation, regardless of how easy they are to figure out AFTER the fact, may have caused major issues DURING the fact had my car not been there to help me out.
It was the adrenaline.
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Old 01-29-2013, 08:21 AM   #2006
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Keep calm?

Drive how you want to, as Martin Riggs said in lethal weapon 2 " it's your ass cochese" I think he got the short end of the stick there Roger Murtaugh with the classic lines " nailed 'em both" and " it's just been revoked" had a much better showing.
That's called diversion. You can't discuss the merits of the sub-topic (because you finally understood you were incorrect) and try to shift focus from how to drive a car with ABS and stability control properly in the snow, to a movie quote that has no bearing on how to drive a car with ABS and stability control properly in the snow, hoping that someone wouldn't point out that your post of "how to drive a car with ABS and stability control properly in the snow" was wrong.

We're talking about how to drive a car with ABS and stability control properly in the snow, in this case, the Forester which comes with ABS and stability control.

Proper tires and more gas will help you stay out of more ditches because the stability control can work and find the grip to help you drive around the obstacle. ABS will not allow VDC to kick in, and will only get you in more troulble as you realize you have a) no traction and b) no power to get the wheels grabbing for traction.

I'm thinking of starting a collection to get you to a Team O'Neil's winter safe driving class (NESIC used to do a couple a year). These classes are centered around daily driving cars for ordinary people in how to avoid ending up in a ditch or going around obstacles that suddenly appear in front of you from a sideroad or other lane because they didn't have a car with ABS and stability control or didn't know how to drive a car with ABS and stability control properly in the snow.

There's one exercise where you're driving towards a person in the middle of an open space. At the last second, that person will hold up an arm/flag. You are to go to the direction that the flag is pointing. These are last second emergency maneuvers (and yes, the person as time to move out of the way, they are professionals ) and the instructor in the car will always say MORE GAS. Braking, you'll just end up a) going straight or even worse, b) cause the line of cars behind you to have a chain reaction because YOU stopped and THEY couldn't. Avoid 1st. Get out of the way 2nd.

--kC
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Old 01-29-2013, 08:40 AM   #2007
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That's called diversion. You can't discuss the merits of the sub-topic (because you finally understood you were incorrect) and try to shift focus from how to drive a car with ABS and stability control properly in the snow, to a movie quote that has no bearing on how to drive a car with ABS and stability control properly in the snow, hoping that someone wouldn't point out that your post of "how to drive a car with ABS and stability control properly in the snow" was wrong.

We're talking about how to drive a car with ABS and stability control properly in the snow, in this case, the Forester which comes with ABS and stability control.

Proper tires and more gas will help you stay out of more ditches because the stability control can work and find the grip to help you drive around the obstacle. ABS will not allow VDC to kick in, and will only get you in more troulble as you realize you have a) no traction and b) no power to get the wheels grabbing for traction.

I'm thinking of starting a collection to get you to a Team O'Neil's winter safe driving class (NESIC used to do a couple a year). These classes are centered around daily driving cars for ordinary people in how to avoid ending up in a ditch or going around obstacles that suddenly appear in front of you from a sideroad or other lane because they didn't have a car with ABS and stability control or didn't know how to drive a car with ABS and stability control properly in the snow.

There's one exercise where you're driving towards a person in the middle of an open space. At the last second, that person will hold up an arm/flag. You are to go to the direction that the flag is pointing. These are last second emergency maneuvers (and yes, the person as time to move out of the way, they are professionals ) and the instructor in the car will always say MORE GAS. Braking, you'll just end up a) going straight or even worse, b) cause the line of cars behind you to have a chain reaction because YOU stopped and THEY couldn't. Avoid 1st. Get out of the way 2nd.

--kC
Let them end up in the ditches. It keeps the rest of us safe when they're not on the road like they think they know everything there is to know about winter driving. At least in a ditch they won't run into us or get someone else to run into us.
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:53 AM   #2008
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Originally Posted by KC View Post
That's called diversion. You can't discuss the merits of the sub-topic (because you finally understood you were incorrect) and try to shift focus from how to drive a car with ABS and stability control properly in the snow, to a movie quote that has no bearing on how to drive a car with ABS and stability control properly in the snow, hoping that someone wouldn't point out that your post of "how to drive a car with ABS and stability control properly in the snow" was wrong.

We're talking about how to drive a car with ABS and stability control properly in the snow, in this case, the Forester which comes with ABS and stability control.

Proper tires and more gas will help you stay out of more ditches because the stability control can work and find the grip to help you drive around the obstacle. ABS will not allow VDC to kick in, and will only get you in more troulble as you realize you have a) no traction and b) no power to get the wheels grabbing for traction.

I'm thinking of starting a collection to get you to a Team O'Neil's winter safe driving class (NESIC used to do a couple a year). These classes are centered around daily driving cars for ordinary people in how to avoid ending up in a ditch or going around obstacles that suddenly appear in front of you from a sideroad or other lane because they didn't have a car with ABS and stability control or didn't know how to drive a car with ABS and stability control properly in the snow.

There's one exercise where you're driving towards a person in the middle of an open space. At the last second, that person will hold up an arm/flag. You are to go to the direction that the flag is pointing. These are last second emergency maneuvers (and yes, the person as time to move out of the way, they are professionals ) and the instructor in the car will always say MORE GAS. Braking, you'll just end up a) going straight or even worse, b) cause the line of cars behind you to have a chain reaction because YOU stopped and THEY couldn't. Avoid 1st. Get out of the way 2nd.

--kC
no, I'd rather not get into a stupid argument over our lack of ability to communicate with each other.

it was obvious I wasn't doing a good job of writing in a way that could be understood.

I thought, all I was writing was be in the right gear. but it looks like I accidentally conveyed the message of:

make sure you wait until you are as close as you dare to the corner before you brake (for the advanced drivers, you should wait a bit longer as you need to learn how to trail brake), do some heel-toe and drop to the gear that will put you in the middle of your power band on the exit of the corner so you can power slide. always remember, you look more boss doing this if you have one arm out the window waving at the pretty ladies, a pair of dogs in the back, a bicycle on the roof and a trailer attached to the back.

so I opted out.

I'll try to elaborate, so I don't convey the wrong message again:

it's a good habit to shift to the appropriate gear before you enter the turn, as an example if the appropriate gear to be in for 15mph 90 degree turn is 3rd gear, put yourself in that gear before you enter the turn. if it's a sweeping onramp with a reducing radius and an off camber bit where it's a bridge and you're confident there's going to be some ice, put it in the appropriate gear to safely navigate the off camber reducing radius ice patch, cause it's too late to shift gears on the icy off camber bit.



and while I do appreciate the offer for the snowy driving lessons, it would take a lot more than the promise of driving in the snow to make me accept going north of 30 degrees latitude in the winter. it's 72 degrees right now, in the middle of January in the morning, I'm very much okay with this.
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:09 AM   #2009
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it's a good habit to shift to the appropriate gear before you enter the turn, as an example if the appropriate gear to be in for 15mph 90 degree turn is 3rd gear, put yourself in that gear before you enter the turn. if it's a sweeping onramp with a reducing radius and an off camber bit where it's a bridge and you're confident there's going to be some ice, put it in the appropriate gear to safely navigate the off camber reducing radius ice patch, cause it's too late to shift gears on the icy off camber bit.
Damn it, that's where I went wrong! But I would have been fine if the deer hadn't jumped in front of me!
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:45 AM   #2010
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I'll try to elaborate, so I don't convey the wrong message again:

it's a good habit to shift to the appropriate gear before you enter the turn, as an example if the appropriate gear to be in for 15mph 90 degree turn is 3rd gear, put yourself in that gear before you enter the turn. if it's a sweeping onramp with a reducing radius and an off camber bit where it's a bridge and you're confident there's going to be some ice, put it in the appropriate gear to safely navigate the off camber reducing radius ice patch, cause it's too late to shift gears on the icy off camber bit.
I still have issues with what you said above. I know, surprise, right? Putting a car in a gear it doesn't need to be in, just in case something may or may not happen, is not a proper way to drive. How would you know if you needed 2nd or 3rd before the turn started? Where 3rd may be great on any other day, if you slowed in an emergency situation, you'd bog and not have the power to get out of it, and you'd have to shift.

In a manual, that takes time if you're not experienced.

Shifting an automatic or CVT, being practically intantaneous, does not upset the car as if it were a manual. If you're in A, then the car will do all the deciding for you. If you're in sport shift mode, the car will still make certain decisions for you faster than you can even react.

I have two RWD cars that I drive in the snow. One's an auto, one is a stick. I do not die when letting the car decide, nor have I died having chosen a different gear mid turn.

Again, the only time that shifting an MT in a turn is bad is when you've got the suspension almost fully loaded. I fully disagree with your statement that one should always put the car in the gear you need for the turn before getting there on surface streets, "just in case" something should happen.

On a track? Shifting before the turn starts is manditory. Why? Because you're almost fully loading the suspension and running higher than normal RPMS!! That is the only reason one would do so.

--kC
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:58 AM   #2011
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Quick! Quote this and my previous statements for A W to not read! I actually feel kinda fuzzy inside knowing that he'd rather ignore me over Calamity or yourself.
I had the same WTF moment...
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Thank you! I don't put people on ignore, but I have reported several of his posts from various forums around NASIOC. He was being useful there for a short while, then went back to full derp. That's why I asked about his medication.
I have a very short ignore list.. and half of the people on it have been banned already anyway. Half the time it's a game to see if I can 'ban' them from my NASIOC before the mods do it for everyone else's. I'm thinking it's about time to beat the mods in that race yet again...

My wife will be able to write prescriptions for mental health drugs this Fall.. so I can ask her.. but I don't think they make medication that can fix what he's got.


As for driving in the snow.. engine braking is a very useful tool if you know how to use it smoothly. I'd rather drive a manual in the snow & ice than an automatic.. but that's secondary to a smooth throttle, IMO. My worst snow vehicle is my Mazda 5. It's the only car I've ever ended up in a ditch with.. even on snow tires it's a handful because the throttle pedal is tuned to 'feel' sporty.. so it's very twitchy. My MCS, on the other hand, is fantastic in the snow thanks to the smooth engine braking of a tiny 1.6L and the smooth throttle response at low RPM with the turbo. The traction control and stability control don't hurt either. The second-worst snow vehicle I've owned was my '08 STI on all-seasons. It just felt too numb and the VSC was useless paired with the torque biasing diffs (one is trying to guide the car by braking individual wheels, the other is trying to turn all 4 wheels at the same speed.. it just made the car unpredictable). I'm sure it would have been a huge difference with some lighter wheels and some snow tires.

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Old 01-29-2013, 01:01 PM   #2012
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I still have issues with what you said above. I know, surprise, right? Putting a car in a gear it doesn't need to be in, just in case something may or may not happen, is not a proper way to drive. How would you know if you needed 2nd or 3rd before the turn started? Where 3rd may be great on any other day, if you slowed in an emergency situation, you'd bog and not have the power to get out of it, and you'd have to shift.

In a manual, that takes time if you're not experienced.

Shifting an automatic or CVT, being practically intantaneous, does not upset the car as if it were a manual. If you're in A, then the car will do all the deciding for you. If you're in sport shift mode, the car will still make certain decisions for you faster than you can even react.

I have two RWD cars that I drive in the snow. One's an auto, one is a stick. I do not die when letting the car decide, nor have I died having chosen a different gear mid turn.

Again, the only time that shifting an MT in a turn is bad is when you've got the suspension almost fully loaded. I fully disagree with your statement that one should always put the car in the gear you need for the turn before getting there on surface streets, "just in case" something should happen.

On a track? Shifting before the turn starts is manditory. Why? Because you're almost fully loading the suspension and running higher than normal RPMS!! That is the only reason one would do so.

--kC
you're right, when a suspension is fully loaded and you change the balance of the car by shifting you're going to end up in a bad way. it's not just about shifting the balance though, it's also got to do with the tire adhesion limits. presumably, on a track with a fully loaded suspension, your tires are at their adhesion limits and you're going to lose traction when you push them beyond those limits by upsetting the balance mid corner.

the same is less likely when the suspension is unloaded and you shift gears cause the suspension can absorb a lot of the change, and you're presumably not pushing as it is. the car's not going to have a lot of momentum changing around.

It's close to moot, cause with cars of today (and indeed the new forester) that have max torque from 2500 rpm to just below redline, you'll be pretty much okay in a few different gears (and not bog), and we're just arguing for the sake of it
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Old 01-29-2013, 03:59 PM   #2013
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You're arguing for the sake of it. I'm arguing because I'm right and you're wrong.

--kC
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:49 PM   #2014
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:41 AM   #2015
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50+ MPH if the police aren't present. 25 MPH if the police are present obviously.
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Old 01-31-2013, 09:53 AM   #2016
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Subaru Global just put up the development videos on YouTube. I'm on mobile(forum runner) so the video is just a link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGo-...e_gdata_player

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Old 01-31-2013, 10:05 AM   #2017
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Old 02-01-2013, 05:26 AM   #2018
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Ahhh, as always, Subaru developing its road handling, and most of all, its soft off-road capabilty
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:24 AM   #2019
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Well, since we're already off-topic:

I hit a few consecutive patches of black ice the other day on an off-ramp, just after up-shifting to 4th gear at 65 mph, as I usually do, since it allows me to engine-brake all the way through the ramp and have a little bit of fun through the mini-S-turn.

Anyway, I learned long ago not to brake or add too much pedal while losing traction in a turn, so I modulated the throttle and I swear it gave me chills to feel the VDC grab the car and point me straight again. Anyway, had I braked hard, past the threshold for ABS, i might possibly have gone off the road. The same might be true had I turned TC AND VDC off (I rarely do.)

I have Blizzaks, which obviously helped tremendously, and I consider myself an average driver, but what saved my butt was being in gear, modulating the throttle, letting the VDC figure out where traction was. With that said, had I up-shifted to 4th gear AFTER I had entered the turn it might be a different situation, since the massive shift in weight would probably have upset the balance enough to kick VDC in the face.

Back on topic:

Come 2016, I plan to pick up a leftover 2015 Forester. If I feel particularly spendy, I'll wait and buy a 2016 XT, which would be the bees knees!
If in doubt, throttle out! Also, since you are in CT, head up to Team O'Neils sometime for the 1 day winter driving school.
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:39 PM   #2020
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I ordered a 2014 2.5i Touring in Venetian Red Pearl last night!
MSRP $30,820 Invoice $28,876 with $825 destination

Driver Assistance Tech package (EyeSight, HID, Keyless acces & start)
MSRP $2400 Invoice $2087

Popular Package #2 (Auto-dimming mirror with Homelink, Auto-dimming side mirrors with approach lights, bumper cover, rear seat back cargo net)
MSRP $641 Invoice $414

Interior illumination kit (red) - MSRP $202 Invoice $131

Aero cross bars - MSRP $199 Invoice $117

Total MSRP $34,262
Total invoice $31,625
--> Subaru VIP Program 2% off invoice: final sale price = $30,992 -- That's about $3,266 discount from MSRP with no haggling.

Dealer doc fees and state fees (not including 6% PA sales tax) are $189. I've seen worse; no complaints here.

I'm also using the Subaru Guaranteed Trade-in program for a reasonable no-haggle trade. So this was an easy, low-pressure deal.

Dealer agreed in writing to make my deposit 100% refundable at least until I test drive one when they start to arrive on lots, but I'm 99% sure I won't change my mind based on all of the glowing first drive reviews.

No idea when it will arrive, but Cars101 indication is that I should expect it April - May. I'm worried that it could even slip to June. This is going to be a LOOONNNGG 3-4 months!

Last edited by eps105; 02-01-2013 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:40 PM   #2021
eps105
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Vehicle:
2014 Forester 2.5i
Venetian Red

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I was able to find out invoice prices for select options while ordering my Forester last night.

First of all, the base price invoice pricing at this site is confirmed to be correct: http://www.lotpro.com/cars/2014/suba...ester/pricing/
Just add $825 for delivery. Dealer Price = MSRP; Dealer Invoice Price = Invoice

As far as I know, all prices here only apply to the contiguous U.S. areas served by Subaru of America. I'm not sure if Subaru of New England pricing is different.

Driver Assistance Tech package (EyeSight, HID, Keyless acces & start)
MSRP $2400 Invoice $2087

Popular Package #1 (Auto-dimming mirror, Auto-dimming side mirrors with approach lights, bumper cover, rear seat back cargo net)
MSRP $567 Invoice $366

Popular Package #2 (Auto-dimming mirror with Homelink, Auto-dimming side mirrors with approach lights, bumper cover, rear seat back cargo net)
MSRP $641 Invoice $414

Rugged Package #1/#2 (same except luggage cover is shaped differently for trims with the power tailgate) -- Aero cross bars, rear bumper cover, luggage compartment (Tonneau) cover, splash guard kit.
MSRP$620 Invoice $389

Rugged Package #3 (for base models) -- Roof carrier base (fixed position), rear bumper cover, luggage compartment (Tonneau) cover, splash guard kit.
MSRP $855 Invoice $572

Interior illumination kit (red) - MSRP $202 Invoice $131
Aero cross bars - MSRP $199 Invoice $117
Rear Bumper Cover MSRP $92 Invoice $59
Cargo Net rear seat back MSRP $55 Invoice $35
Splash guards MSRP $147 Invoice $95
Luggage compartment cover (2 versions shaped for regular and power liftgate; same price) MSRP $182 Invoice $118
Roof carrier base (fixed position, for base models without roof rails) MSRP $434 Invoice $300
Body side molding MSRP $252 Invoice $163
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:54 PM   #2022
gathermewool
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: CT
Vehicle:
14 FXT Touring
VRP

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Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceywilly View Post
If in doubt, throttle out! Also, since you are in CT, head up to Team O'Neils sometime for the 1 day winter driving school.
Done.

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Old 02-01-2013, 02:39 PM   #2023
SubieMonte
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Michigan
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2005 WRX Wagon
OBP

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Does anyone have a link to the Burnished Bronze color? Thank you!
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Old 02-01-2013, 03:03 PM   #2024
JustyWRC
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Arlington, TN
Vehicle:
2005 Baja Turbo
06 Forester 04 Forester

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Quote:
Originally Posted by eps105 View Post
No idea when it will arrive, but Cars101 indication is that I should expect it April - May. I'm worried that it could even slip to June. This is going to be a LOOONNNGG 3-4 months!

Maybe they can assign yours from the first allocation. That would be nice. Would most likely be March if they could do that. Not sure how your region does it though. Good luck and congrats!
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Old 02-01-2013, 03:36 PM   #2025
53x12
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: In a tent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eps105 View Post
No idea when it will arrive, but Cars101 indication is that I should expect it April - May. I'm worried that it could even slip to June. This is going to be a LOOONNNGG 3-4 months!

I assume as things happened with the new Impreza, XV, and BRZ, things might get pushed back a little and inventory will be load at first. But since you are close to the port on the East coast, maybe you will get lucky!
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