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Old 11-14-2014, 06:26 AM   #1
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Default Supra Sucessor to Cost More than a Corvette





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The sports car collaboration between Toyota and BMW will yield a product for Toyota that could cost more than a base Corvette.

Citing an unnamed inside source, Car and Driver reports that the upcoming Japanese sports car will be more expensive than the current Corvette Stingray. That means it will start above the $55,000 mark and suggests that Toyota will need to offer it with power comparable to vehicles in that range. In other words, the Supra successor will probably have more than 400 hp coming from either a turbocharged or hybridized powertrain.
The partnership will also render a performance car for BMW that, until now, was rumored to be a possible successor to the Z4. The two companies said that their end products will be noticeably different, but it isnít clear how so.
If the BMW sells at a premium to the Toyota, it could start pushing into Porsche 911 territory in price.
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Old 11-14-2014, 09:29 AM   #2
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Wouldn't be surprised. It will also be severely under performing compared to the vette as well. Meaning they'll miss the mark and sales will flounder. The only way the LAST expensive japanese sports car* that sold even mildly successfully was to come in and embarrass cars 2-3 times it's price, let alone everything under it's price.

*LFA doesn't count, as there are plenty of rich dumb people who buy exclusivity and don't care too much about the rest of the package.

Don't make this like the twins, where you overprice it and under-compete. If you do, GFYS.
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Old 11-14-2014, 09:42 AM   #3
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C7 is going to be really difficult to compete with on a performance basis. They're way too flashy and have too much chrome wheel action but they're a great value especially for the base model with minimal options.
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Old 11-14-2014, 09:43 AM   #4
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Did anyone expect it to be less expensive than the corvette? Corvette performance per dollar is off the chart compared to everything on the market. Not really fair to set that as the average for comparison. Of course it won't meet that in performance numbers. It should be a different enough car that people want it for other reasons than just track use.
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Old 11-14-2014, 10:03 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by woody06967 View Post
they're a great value especially for the base model with minimal options.
My favorite way to option a car for that very reason.

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Originally Posted by AllAWD View Post
Not really fair to set that as the average for comparison.
If you can't compete, don't try. Toyota of ALL people should be able to make a car that is competitive in any segment they want. If nissan can do it, the strongest of the japs with the same pedigree for sports cars sure as hell can find a way.

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Of course it won't meet that in performance numbers. It should be a different enough car that people want it for other reasons than just track use.
This is a supra. It has two parts: Looking sexy and making **** tons of power reliably. The LFA is reserved for all that other crap and carries its own, unique (albeit young) pedigree, befitting of boulevard cruising with hot models and being noticed at red carpet events.

Time for car companies to stop bastardizing their own heritage to sell cars. If the NSX ever comes out, it will be more of the same from japan's current trend of trying to compete with ACTUAL super cars in terms of the other aspects associated besides just performance (price, exclusivity, poor reliability).

The japanese bubble sports cars were both amazing and successful for two simple reasons: They were cheaper and they were reliable. As soon as that started to fall off (when the supra priced itself out of the market, for instance) the cars died. The outcome will be no different this time, except they're skipping straight to the overpriced, dying off part.
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Old 11-14-2014, 10:13 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by WRXHillClimb View Post
My favorite way to option a car for that very reason.



If you can't compete, don't try. Toyota of ALL people should be able to make a car that is competitive in any segment they want. If nissan can do it, the strongest of the japs with the same pedigree for sports cars sure as hell can find a way.



This is a supra. It has two parts: Looking sexy and making **** tons of power reliably. The LFA is reserved for all that other crap and carries its own, unique (albeit young) pedigree, befitting of boulevard cruising with hot models and being noticed at red carpet events.

Time for car companies to stop bastardizing their own heritage to sell cars. If the NSX ever comes out, it will be more of the same from japan's current trend of trying to compete with ACTUAL super cars in terms of the other aspects associated besides just performance (price, exclusivity, poor reliability).

The japanese bubble sports cars were both amazing and successful for two simple reasons: They were cheaper and they were reliable. As soon as that started to fall off (when the supra priced itself out of the market, for instance) the cars died. The outcome will be no different this time, except they're skipping straight to the overpriced, dying off part.
Oh that's right, you don't understand anything about the consumer market. I forgot. My bad.
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Old 11-14-2014, 10:37 AM   #7
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Yeah you have to remember that AllAWD... economics is not his strong suit

But I totally agree with your previous post.. you are on a roll.
NO way a halo car from toyota will cost less than 50g. I mean A camry can cost close to 40. Everybody has to recalibrate that 30 is the new 20. 40 is the new 30.

I would think if this car is good enough, then it could easily hit mid 50's or even 60's. What else does it have to compete against. There is a HUGE japanese sports car whole. You hvae the BRZ, and then the GTR. I am sure there is room for something in between.

As for WHC's attitude about the LFA. It is easily one of the most desireable cars on earth for me. That engine and that sound and that car look spectatular inside and out. I really do not give a crap if other cars are a tenth faster here or there. Most people buy cars based on more than pure magazine numbers.

Toyota needs to design an entire car, not a number generating machine.
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Old 11-14-2014, 10:47 AM   #8
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I agree with scrappy. If you really expected this car to be cheaper than a corvette, you're a god damned idiot. The last gen of supra was damn expensive, and in stock form was not much better than a corvette.

If I had the financial means to purchase this car, I would probably do so even if it costs more and is slightly slower. There is much more to a vehicle than magazine numbers... Like overall driving experience. The e46 m3 was by no means a fast vehicle, but god damn was it pure enjoyment.
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Old 11-14-2014, 11:14 AM   #9
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Oh that's right, you don't understand anything about the consumer market. I forgot. My bad.
Except I do, and I understand that, like most "new" sports cars carrying a name, this one, even if over priced, will at least initially do well.

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Yeah you have to remember that AllAWD... economics is not his strong suit

But I totally agree with your previous post.. you are on a roll.
NO way a halo car from toyota will cost less than 50g. I mean A camry can cost close to 40. Everybody has to recalibrate that 30 is the new 20. 40 is the new 30.

I would think if this car is good enough, then it could easily hit mid 50's or even 60's. What else does it have to compete against. There is a HUGE japanese sports car whole. You hvae the BRZ, and then the GTR. I am sure there is room for something in between.

As for WHC's attitude about the LFA. It is easily one of the most desireable cars on earth for me. That engine and that sound and that car look spectatular inside and out. I really do not give a crap if other cars are a tenth faster here or there. Most people buy cars based on more than pure magazine numbers.

Toyota needs to design an entire car, not a number generating machine.
I'm not saying I thought it would be cheaper than a vette. I'm saying I think it will flounder if it's as expensive as I think it will be ($60k+) after the initial hype wears off.

Obviously, nissan designed a whole car. They undercut the **** out of true exotics while making them look silly doing it. My reasoning is: if one company can do it, another company that is undoubtedly stronger financially should be able to as well. Whether they want to do it instead of trying to ride the hype wave and sell for more than what they would without it is another thing entirely.

I understand economics, and I understand the difference between targeting people with actual hard value versus emotional bull****. Even if a car sells out 100/100 units, if it's sold on the latter, I will disagree with the strategy taken and the people who bought it, despite it being "successful".

You keep saying I don't understand economics, when all I'm doing is disagreeing with the fact that companies can get away with dumb **** when they intentionally target tiny sales numbers. There are companies who try to do this, and then there are companies like nissan, who, despite other difficulties and the ability existing to sell something for more money, put out a product that is superior and sell it for less.

I'll always buy that product and lambaste people who buy things from the opposite end of the spectrum. Doesn't mean I don't understand the economics, or that it will happen. It just means I think it's retarded and I wish companies would stop taking advantage of people, when they clearly are, as evidenced by things like the GTR, vette, etc.

Another example of what I'm talking about would be something like google fiber. How can a company sit there and keep a straight face trying to sell something 1/100th the speed at double the cost of someone else? Google fiber, once wide spread, will rape the big ISPs and put them in their place, and expose the truth behind just how greedy they are.

Is there a reason for google to sell it for cheaper? Not that I can see. They could probably charge double what they are and still have a superior product. So why did they price it as they did? My assumption is they probably felt it was enough and enjoy sticking a huge thorn in the side of the other companies. That is my kind of company. And if you think google will fail because they aren't charging the most they can for their product, you're clearly wrong. Just more proof that companies don't have to pursue the "charge whatever someone is willing to pay" side of econ, and can, in fact, target prices more indicative of the actual costs, and still survive.
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Old 11-14-2014, 11:40 AM   #10
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man, You just proved my theory.

If you think google is not in it for pure profits, you could not be more wrong. They do not sell for less to be cool and trendy, they are trying to capture a market. The only reason they can sell for less is because they have maximized profit elsewhere.

Do not kid yourself.

I do not want toyota to try to beat the GTR. Who the hell wants to produce a sports car only to sell 200 units a year.

I am not even going to start on the comment about people who buy vettes and GTR's are being taken advantage of. Nobody made them buy those cars. Something is worth what people will pay for it.

It is the job of the company to hype a product as much as possible to increase demand. This is not complicated.

The hype wave is as you call it, is just good business. Remind me if I ever start my company to never hire you.
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Old 11-14-2014, 12:08 PM   #11
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It's obvious they're trying to capture market by undercutting, but I doubt they're taking a loss at all, and I doubt they'll raise the rates once/if they do capture market. The point is, I can get something unquestionably better elsewhere for cheaper, which proves MY point that someone can, in fact, offer a superior product for cheaper if they try hard enough and the competition is overpriced.

You keep missing that point I'm trying to make.

In the case of google fiber, it's profitable enough, proven to be feasible, and better than the competition. Cars aren't internet service and have other emotional aspects that influence the purchase more, but the same can still be applied.

If toyota doesn't want to try as hard as someone else to capture market share, I will never buy from them and always acknowledge their product as inferior.

Will whoever the other ISPs are in kansas city continue to be profitable? Probably.
Will they have higher profit margins than google fiber? Maybe.
Will they change their prices/capacity to match google fiber? Only if google gets more popular.
Should they change their prices accordingly? Yes, from a philosophical standpoint. (also, they would be forced to if the people buying internet weren't retarded and enabled their swindling).
Is everyone who buys internet from someone other than google in kansas city and pays more than $70 retarded? Absolutely.

I'll make the same argument when this car comes out and is inferior in every way to whatever it is priced against, which is will be. I'm not even just talking about performance metrics. I'm saying that if this car is designed to compete with the m3, it will fall short in ever possible way. Fit, finish, and performance. Yet, SOMEONE will still buy it.

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Old 11-14-2014, 12:45 PM   #12
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I would think if this car is good enough, then it could easily hit mid 50's or even 60's. What else does it have to compete against. There is a HUGE japanese sports car whole. You hvae the BRZ, and then the GTR. I am sure there is room for something in between.
370Z.
It may not be your favorite (or a lot of people's for that matter), but you can't deny that it fits in the hole between the BRZ/FRS and GTR.

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As for WHC's attitude about the LFA. It is easily one of the most desireable cars on earth for me. That engine and that sound and that car look spectatular inside and out. I really do not give a crap if other cars are a tenth faster here or there. Most people buy cars based on more than pure magazine numbers.
I absolutely agree with you on this. While the LFA doesn't have the highest horsepower or the fastest quarter mile, it does have amazing character.
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Old 11-14-2014, 12:57 PM   #13
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well played sir, I did not even think of the 370Z.. maybe it was me just not wanting to acknowledge it.

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Old 11-14-2014, 01:07 PM   #14
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In all honesty, the 370 z with sport package has a true car price of like ~$29,000.

That's still pretty good for what you get. It has a skidpad of .99g, 1/4 mile of 13.2, looks pretty good to me, is a coupe (a huge + after having a 4 door that people seem to always want to use for trips... I hate carrying people because they don't understand just how anal I am about my car and always do dumb ****). 330 hp from an NA 3.7l v6, only 3200lbs.

Not a bad package for sub 30k.
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Old 11-14-2014, 01:07 PM   #15
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It will also be severely under performing compared to the vette as well.
You mean like every other car (relatively speaking)?
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Old 11-14-2014, 01:09 PM   #16
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*LFA doesn't count, as there are plenty of rich dumb people who buy exclusivity and don't care too much about the rest of the package.
Boo again. Cheapest monocoque out there, by far. It was not overpriced for what it was. You were an engineering major at one point...you should have more of an appreciation for that car than your average "a GTR is faster" kinda guy.
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Old 11-14-2014, 01:10 PM   #17
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Except I do, and I understand that, like most "new" sports cars carrying a name, this one, even if over priced, will at least initially do well.



I'm not saying I thought it would be cheaper than a vette. I'm saying I think it will flounder if it's as expensive as I think it will be ($60k+) after the initial hype wears off.

Obviously, nissan designed a whole car. They undercut the **** out of true exotics while making them look silly doing it. My reasoning is: if one company can do it, another company that is undoubtedly stronger financially should be able to as well. Whether they want to do it instead of trying to ride the hype wave and sell for more than what they would without it is another thing entirely.

I understand economics, and I understand the difference between targeting people with actual hard value versus emotional bull****. Even if a car sells out 100/100 units, if it's sold on the latter, I will disagree with the strategy taken and the people who bought it, despite it being "successful".

You keep saying I don't understand economics, when all I'm doing is disagreeing with the fact that companies can get away with dumb **** when they intentionally target tiny sales numbers. There are companies who try to do this, and then there are companies like nissan, who, despite other difficulties and the ability existing to sell something for more money, put out a product that is superior and sell it for less.

I'll always buy that product and lambaste people who buy things from the opposite end of the spectrum. Doesn't mean I don't understand the economics, or that it will happen. It just means I think it's retarded and I wish companies would stop taking advantage of people, when they clearly are, as evidenced by things like the GTR, vette, etc.

Another example of what I'm talking about would be something like google fiber. How can a company sit there and keep a straight face trying to sell something 1/100th the speed at double the cost of someone else? Google fiber, once wide spread, will rape the big ISPs and put them in their place, and expose the truth behind just how greedy they are.

Is there a reason for google to sell it for cheaper? Not that I can see. They could probably charge double what they are and still have a superior product. So why did they price it as they did? My assumption is they probably felt it was enough and enjoy sticking a huge thorn in the side of the other companies. That is my kind of company. And if you think google will fail because they aren't charging the most they can for their product, you're clearly wrong. Just more proof that companies don't have to pursue the "charge whatever someone is willing to pay" side of econ, and can, in fact, target prices more indicative of the actual costs, and still survive.
You are a refreshing delight of "understanding".

Please, tell me more about how the world works and how you are not driven by emotional marketing. What other good, pure, massively profitable companies looking out for all of us?
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Old 11-14-2014, 01:18 PM   #18
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Supra Sucessor to Cost More than a Corvette


OMG SHOCKER
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Old 11-14-2014, 01:19 PM   #19
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What other good, pure, massively profitable companies looking out for all of us?
None? That's not what I'm saying google is. I'm saying they saw an opportunity to undercut fat, stagnate giants and took it, which happened to be to the betterment of the customers as a side effect. I'm not saying it's the only way economics functions, I'm saying it's the ideal way to me and I specifically look for those types of companies willing to chop themselves off at the legs to get business (for most purchases. Evo is exempt ).
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Old 11-14-2014, 02:33 PM   #20
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Should have made in a badge engineered / federalized Exige v6

Toyota seems intent on outsourcing their sports cars, they might as well do it right.
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Old 11-14-2014, 04:24 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by WRXHillClimb View Post
In all honesty, the 370 z with sport package has a true car price of like ~$29,000.

That's still pretty good for what you get. It has a skidpad of .99g, 1/4 mile of 13.2, looks pretty good to me, is a coupe (a huge + after having a 4 door that people seem to always want to use for trips... I hate carrying people because they don't understand just how anal I am about my car and always do dumb ****). 330 hp from an NA 3.7l v6, only 3200lbs.

Not a bad package for sub 30k.
And yet nobody buys it. Sales of the 370Z have dropped off a cliff compared to the 350Z. I simply don't think the current market has appetite for these type of cars. The domestic muscle cars will always have it's following but there's simply not a large market for Japanese RWD sports cars. The BRZ/FR-S sell okay but even at a low price point they aren't setting the market on fire. You just know this car will be likely in the range of $70k which means it's going to sell no more than the MK-IV which simply didn't sell in North America.
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Old 11-14-2014, 07:09 PM   #22
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And yet nobody buys it. Sales of the 370Z have dropped off a cliff compared to the 350Z. I simply don't think the current market has appetite for these type of cars. The domestic muscle cars will always have it's following but there's simply not a large market for Japanese RWD sports cars. The BRZ/FR-S sell okay but even at a low price point they aren't setting the market on fire. You just know this car will be likely in the range of $70k which means it's going to sell no more than the MK-IV which simply didn't sell in North America.
I think we will see the disappearance of the BRZ/FRS in 5 years or so unless they release a turbo model, and i'm surprised the 370z is still around as I have seen so few of them.

The corvette sells so well because of multiple factors. Its a cult classic car with a large following, great performance per dollar and has different models that attract different groups (automatic, manual. hardtop, convertible, performance, etc). With each new generation the performance and looks change a great amount and people will trade in or attract new buyers. Chevy has done really well with the marketing and overall final product.

I think the Supra will sell competitively against the GTR even if it doesnt have the same track numbers. Reasoning being, is that for many people the GTR looks very boring and I think that forces buyers to look elsewhere. The Supra, assuming it comes to production looking like it currently does, really is a beautiful looking car, has aggressive lines, and really stands out. I think that if the GTR and Supra were side by side and no one knew the power or performance numbers, the majority would go Supra.
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Old 11-14-2014, 07:27 PM   #23
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Well, I was one expecting it be close to a Vette in pricing but not alot more over. While it may have character, it's still entering a market that has cars with character and performance. Yes, it's an iconic design for Toyota and may do well, even if underpowered in the segment but it'll be hard sell for me.
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Old 11-14-2014, 07:55 PM   #24
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So follow in the last Gens foot steps and price itself out to fail. Makes sense


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Old 11-15-2014, 09:48 AM   #25
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*LFA doesn't count, as there are plenty of rich dumb people who buy exclusivity and don't care too much about the rest of the package.
Clarkson seemed to think the LFA was worth the money. And I think classifying people as rich and dumb who bought one (if that was inferring) is a silly thing to say. The best car to drive isn't always the fastest.
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