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Old 06-28-2010, 12:52 PM   #1
Phatron
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Default ID2000's on pump gas on a 2.2L? NO! Whats the largest cc that can be run on pump gas?

Car: 2002 WRX
Tuner: Phatron using Romraider & Ecuflash
Dyno Info: Airboy
Peak HP at RPM: xxx whp @ 6400 rpm
Peak Torque at RPM: xxx wtq @ 5200 rpm
Baseline hp/tq for a stock on same dyno: 220 whp / 235 tq (sti)
Target Boost: 20 psi
Target AFR: 11:1
Fuel: 91 octane
Engine/Power Modifications: bored ej205 w/ rods n pistons, injen tbe, gtspec headers n up-pipe with tial 44mm ext gate, TD04, tgv deletes, css fmic, perrin blow thu pipe, forge mbc+perrin ebcs, aps inlet, crap air filter short ram style
Driveline Modifications: 2006 STi 6 speed, act street clutch, gruppes flywheel
Suspension Modifications: RSR lowering springs
Other Modifications: Rays Engineering 17's. NRG CF Seats. NRG Steering Wheel. NRG Harness Bar & 4 points

So....I finally got around to installing the ID2000's in my WRX and discovered that they are too ginormous to run on pump gas.

At 1% IDC the leanest the car would run is 12:1. I tried all of the following with no effect.

Pulled 40% fuel from the MAF (AFR still 12:1....IDC still 1%)

Decreased the Latency by 20% (AFR still 12:1....IDC still 1%)

Scaled the injectors as 4000cc (AFR still 12:1....IDC still 1%)

Set the idle to 2000rpm (AFR still 12:1....IDC still 1%)

As a final check to make sure it wasnt something else in the system we popped my DW750s back in and it ran fine.

Just thought this was interesting info and im curious about others' experiences. I think a 1600cc injector is gonna be about the biggest injector thats able to be run on pump gas to get 14.7

Im gonna try slapping on a FPR and dropping it with the ID2000's to see if i can get it to work.

ID 2000 Users

Code:
Name	Motor	Displ	Fuel	Cams	Port	Idle	Comp	ECU	NOTE
integ	B18	1.8L	91?	stock	stock	12:1	12	honda	vtec
phatron	ej205	2.2L	91	stock 	stock	12:1	8.2	OEM	imgay
jays05	ej257	2.7L?	93	278	yes	12:1	9	UTEC	
syoung	ej257	2.5L	93	278	yes	13:1	9.2	HYDRA	
built	ej257	2.5L?	93	272	yes	13.5	??	AEM	
turboge	ej257	2.5L	E85	stock	stock	14.7:1	8.2	OEM	hybrid
1badsti	ej257	2.7L?	93	cstom	yes	14.7:1	??	HYDRA	
tdagen	ej257	2.5L	E85	stock 	stock	14.7:1	9.5	OEM	hybrid
Theories

1 - The injector simply can't spray less fuel - this is my thought....how can we verify? Arent the IDC and IPW's people are seeing dependant on the scalars and latencies we/they input into the ecu? IE just because 1 person is seeing 0.50 IDC doesnt mean i will necessarily be able to accomplish that with my scalar and latency......or is that wrong?

2 - The ECU can't properly tell the injector to spray less fuel - this is also a possibility but i am still leaning towards #1

3 - Something else in my setup is wrong - Im pretty sure we debunked this when the DW750's were reinstalled and the car ran fine.
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Last edited by Phatron; 06-29-2010 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 06-28-2010, 01:10 PM   #2
STi Mikey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Car: 2002 WRX
Tuner: Phatron using Romraider & Ecuflash
Dyno Info: Airboy
Peak HP at RPM: xxx whp @ 6400 rpm
Peak Torque at RPM: xxx wtq @ 5200 rpm
Baseline hp/tq for a stock on same dyno: 220 whp / 235 tq (sti)
Target Boost: 20 psi
Target AFR: 11:1
Fuel: 91 octane
Engine/Power Modifications: bored ej205 w/ rods n pistons, injen tbe, gtspec headers n up-pipe with tial 44mm ext gate, TD04, tgv deletes, css fmic, perrin blow thu pipe, forge mbc+perrin ebcs, aps inlet, crap air filter short ram style
Driveline Modifications: 2006 STi 6 speed, act street clutch, gruppes flywheel
Suspension Modifications: RSR lowering springs
Other Modifications: Rays Engineering 17's. NRG CF Seats. NRG Steering Wheel. NRG Harness Bar & 4 points

So....I finally got around to installing the ID2000's in my WRX and discovered that they are too ginormous to run on pump gas.

At 1% IDC the leanest the car would run is 12:1. I tried all of the following with no effect.

Pulled 40% fuel from the MAF (AFR still 12:1....IDC still 1%)

Decreased the Latency by 20% (AFR still 12:1....IDC still 1%)

Scaled the injectors as 4000cc (AFR still 12:1....IDC still 1%)

Set the idle to 2000rpm (AFR still 12:1....IDC still 1%)

As a final check to make sure it wasnt something else in the system we popped my DW750s back in and it ran fine.

Just thought this was interesting info and im curious about others' experiences. I think a 1600cc injector is gonna be about the biggest injector thats able to be run on pump gas to get 14.7

Im gonna try slapping on a FPR and dropping it with the ID2000's to see if i can get it to work.

So with the 750's back in, is it game time??




12.2 or bust!!
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Old 06-28-2010, 01:19 PM   #3
IAG Performance
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How about unplugging your maf sensor for now and see if it will idle in speed density. Also not sure if you noticed but the ID2000 are actually 2200cc at 43.5psi IIRC. The other thought would be to lower base fuel pressure to 30-35 psi.
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Old 06-28-2010, 01:47 PM   #4
AWDboostADDICT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IAG Performance View Post
How about unplugging your maf sensor for now and see if it will idle in speed density. Also not sure if you noticed but the ID2000 are actually 2200cc at 43.5psi IIRC. The other thought would be to lower base fuel pressure to 30-35 psi.

I think this is a mechanical problem, it seems even opening the injector as little as possible you it still flows to much fuel. Only answer is wayyy lower fuel pressure
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Old 06-28-2010, 01:49 PM   #5
Phatron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IAG Performance View Post
How about unplugging your maf sensor for now and see if it will idle in speed density. Also not sure if you noticed but the ID2000 are actually 2200cc at 43.5psi IIRC. The other thought would be to lower base fuel pressure to 30-35 psi.
Yes i know they are technically 2200's.....i've just been calling them 2000's since day 1. My thought was to actually use the GroupN ROM and run speed density......but again this doesnt have anything to do with the MAF or a MAF limitation.......its an injector limitation....they cant spray any less fuel.

I think the only answer is lowering the FP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STi Mikey View Post
So with the 750's back in, is it game time??



12.2 or bust!!
getting close. but now i need new o-rings for the 750's.....im leaking fuel.

waiting to hear back from DW about getting some shipped to me.

Last edited by Phatron; 06-28-2010 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 06-28-2010, 01:53 PM   #6
crashtke
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Hmm, seems a bit curious. I just think back to the video of the stock Integra running them. Not sure what it was on for fuel though.

What air fuel does it sit on above idle? When you are just barely on the gas does it lean out some?
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Old 06-28-2010, 02:02 PM   #7
Phatron
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^^ thats exactly what i was thinking the whole time.....

and also this car done by Ed. Hopefully he'll chime in with some info.....or Junior...i believe he's done a couple cars on 93 with the 2000's

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1944790
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Old 06-28-2010, 02:10 PM   #8
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I think it also makes a difference how big the engine is. Yours is a 2.0 with bored cylinders? Bored to what? How much more than 2.0 is it?

The other Suby examples are all 2.5 engines IIRC?
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Old 06-28-2010, 02:15 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Yes i know they are technically 2200's.....i've just been calling them 2000's since day 1. My thought was to actually use the GroupN ROM and run speed density......but again this doesnt have anything to do with the MAF or a MAF limitation.......its an injector limitation....they cant spray any less fuel.

I think the only answer is lowering the FP.



getting close. but now i need new o-rings for the 750's.....im leaking fuel.

waiting to hear back from DW about getting some shipped to me
.
Autozone , thats where I got one my rings when I trashed one
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Old 06-28-2010, 02:16 PM   #10
Phatron
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its a 2.2L.....and that may be the answer......but that integra is a 1.8L which is what i keep going back to. Im trying to find out what gas they were using.

By my rough calculations i need 20% less fuel.....so if i switch to e85 it should be good to go.....the only problem is getting and storing enough e85 where im at.



Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
Autozone , thats where I got one my rings when I trashed one
lol...thanks....im wetoddid
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Old 06-28-2010, 02:17 PM   #11
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Think the integra was idling at 12:1 also now that I think about it. What does it do when you cruise?
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Old 06-28-2010, 02:25 PM   #12
Beetspeed
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And the Integra was probably a N/A car with 'high' compression ratio and stock cams.
A turbo suby is always looooowww CR, which surely makes a difference also imho.

Oh, and if you run a stand-alone ecu, you could get one of them 'flexi-fuel' sensors and run a mix of E85 and regular whenever you like and whenever you can get what gas ;-) Just need to store the E85 in your tank then :-)
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Old 06-28-2010, 02:46 PM   #13
Phatron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crashtke View Post
Think the integra was idling at 12:1 also now that I think about it. What does it do when you cruise?
i didnt even drive it. my car is actually sitting on jacks in my driveway....just never took it off after i installed everything.

I didnt really feel it was a good idea to go driving around if i couldnt even get the idle right. revving it in the driveway would lean it out, but even with the idle set at 2000rpm it still doesnt increase the airflow enough to make a difference.

My answer is going to be to just run the 750's until i can get the e85 situation sorted out.
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:15 PM   #14
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With ID2000's my car idles at mid 11s to low 12s AFR. Big whoop. Just target 13.5 AFR in the idle cells of the fuel map and be done with it.
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:20 PM   #15
Phatron
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what would richening the target AFR do? the injector is basically gonna run what it brung at idle.
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:24 PM   #16
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with a standalone a 14.5-14.7 idle on 93 pump is not a problem because I had my dialed in on 93 before I switched to e85 that way if i get somewhere that doesn't readily have e85 I can throw the 93 map into the hydra.I would have to say the stock ecu just doesn't have the adjustability to run and control the 2200's.
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:29 PM   #17
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stand aloneeeeeeee

1600c injectors are big enough, arent they?
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:30 PM   #18
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must be a low side pulse width limitation of your EM.

there is a video of the ID2000's installed in a 100% bone stock 1.8 liter acura GSR on youtube. car runs fine.

*Edit* I guess I remembered the vid incorrectly, that gsr was idleing at 11.9 to 12.0 af also.

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Old 06-28-2010, 03:33 PM   #19
Phatron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john 1badSTI View Post
with a standalone a 14.5-14.7 idle on 93 pump is not a problem because I had my dialed in on 93 before I switched to e85 that way if i get somewhere that doesn't readily have e85 I can throw the 93 map into the hydra.I would have to say the stock ecu just doesn't have the adjustability to run and control the 2200's.
it really could be the 2.5L thats letting you accomplish that.

what adjustability does your hydra have that the stock ecu doesnt with regards to fueling?

scalar, latency, maf.....what else do you need?

The injector wouldnt go below 1% IDC no matter what was changed.....

Can you throw some 93oct in and do some logging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnstman View Post
must be a low side pulse width limitation of your EM. there is a video of the ID2000's installed in a 100% bone stock 1.8 liter acura GSR on youtube. car runs fine.
thats great.....but as already discussed there is a difference between "running fine" and "running 14.7"

my car also "runs fine" and idles "fine". Its steady, doesnt burble....its actually a great idle except for the AFR being at 12:1
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:35 PM   #20
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You can't blaim the injector when the ECU doesn't let you lower the injector opening time below a certain value... There is most likely a (unfound?) limiter for minimum injector opening time in the ROM!

I expected you to know this...

P.S. That's the difference with an aftermarket ECU, it doesn't have this minimum limit.

Mark.
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:37 PM   #21
Phatron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EMS View Post
You can't blaim the injector when the ECU doesn't let you lower the injector opening time below a certain value... There is most likely a (unfound?) limiter for minimum injector opening time in the ROM!

I expected you to know this...

Mark.
So you expect me to know about an unfound parameter that you dont even know about? how does that make sense?
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:41 PM   #22
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the stock ecu doesn't have the resolution of 32x32 mapping and does not have the ability to run a small enough pulsewidth to lean out the idle.Thinks about it --do you really think the engineers at suby actually designed the stock ecu to ever be able to control injectors that big,I would not think so.Others running standalones(aem) have got these injectors to idle at 14.7 so I would have to assume its ecu related.
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:41 PM   #23
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Think about it and you will probably find out...
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:42 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john 1badSTI View Post
the stock ecu doesn't have the resolution of 32x32 mapping and does not have the ability to run a small enough pulsewidth to lean out the idle.Thinks about it --do you really think the engineers at suby actually designed the stock ecu to ever be able to control injectors that big,I would not think so.Others running standalones(aem) have got these injectors to idle at 14.7 so I would have to assume its ecu related.
The resolution is MORE than sufficient!
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Old 06-28-2010, 04:00 PM   #25
Phatron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EMS View Post
Think about it and you will probably find out...
Thanks for being vague and not helpful at all.

Well I'm all up for ideas on what else to try an change besides what I listed in post 1
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