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Old 10-31-2012, 09:33 AM   #1
jobber
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Default New car time? STI's scarce!

I been around for many years.. Had one Subaru, a 2005 WRX, and you will find some of my write-ups here and there. I am mostly a GTI guy, and have had many of them. Currently have a 2011 GTI with K04 turbo, DSG flash, etc, around 350hp (engine). I am ready to try something with a new flavor, I have been VW for so long. I've always wanted to get back into a WRX or STI, but some factors keep me away. I might be ready to accept those factors, going from VW to Subaru. I won't bore you with VW love, but the interior will be a step down, and especially the entertainment which has always sucked on Subarus. (I doubt anyone will disagree.)

all that being said.. I still want to get into a 2013 STI hatchback. I am ready to accept the differences in exchange for the performance and AWD. I am a bit concerned with how stiff the STI clutch might be, as i had hip soreness in the past. Haven't had a manual in a while. Another thing I have been wary about is the "ring land" issue I read about from time to time. Is this resolved on 2013's completely, or still an occasional issue?

My local dealer (when he has some in stock) told me yesterday he does $2600 off MSRP on STI's:

I'm getting 3 STI hatchbacks : Ice Silver, Black and Dark Gray. They have different options but have an Msrp of around 39,300 and a selling price of around 36,700. Black and Dark Gray have a security shock sensor, short throw shifter, subwoofer, and autodimming mirror/Homelink. Ice Silver adds a cat back exhaust.

I only like the hatchbacks, the sedans are not for me. Plasma Blue is my top color choice, is that even a color for 2013?

Thanks for any tips as i consider getting back into the game. As far as modding, hopefully i would only do a simple Cobb AP and be done with it. After this major modding on my GTI, I am hoping to reach about the same power and keep the car easily returnable to stock when needed.
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Last edited by jobber; 10-31-2012 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 10-31-2012, 09:48 AM   #2
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I can't tell you about the mechanical issue but Plasma Blue is still a color option for 2013. I never drove an STi before but are their clutches really that hard that could cause soreness? I hope the WRX isn't the same as I recently ordered one and have been driving auto since I got my driver license in highschool.
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Old 10-31-2012, 09:51 AM   #3
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Congrats on making a step from slow to fast. 350bhp? NO. The only K series anything worth a damn in the automotive market is a motor that Honda makes. K03s and K04s make me sad at how inefficient they are. I read an article on turbo comparisons once (probably 10 years ago now) comparing a K03 to a T88. The K03 spun at 900,000rpm to make peak power and was horrendously inefficient, the T88 spun at 56,000rpm to make it's peak power.

The interior on a Vdub is the only thing I hear guys harping on when they get smoked. The cars are made well, they just don't produce power for ****. Lots of people seem to enjoy them, I just always prefered a Civic SI for an entry level "sports car". No comparison when it comes down to it, boosted FGs ROLL on new gen GTIs.

If you chose a 2013, I think you'll be quite pleased at how much of a better car it is than your GTI. you won't be done with a COBB btw, it never ends my friend. No ringland issue, just take care of your car. Do the maintenance as it is required, stick with basic bolt-ons and you will enjoy 100's of thousands of miles of reliable fun.
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Old 10-31-2012, 09:51 AM   #4
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naw, the clutch itself wouldnt cause soreness.. it might aggravate a pre-existing condition for me.
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Old 10-31-2012, 09:53 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dub kllr View Post
Congrats on making a step from slow to fast. 350bhp? NO. The only K series anything worth a damn in the automotive market is a motor that Honda makes. K03s and K04s make me sad at how inefficient they are. I read an article on turbo comparisons once (probably 10 years ago now) comparing a K03 to a T88. The K03 spun at 900,000rpm to make peak power and was horrendously inefficient, the T88 spun at 56,000rpm to make it's peak power.

The interior on a Vdub is the only thing I hear guys harping on when they get smoked. The cars are made well, they just don't produce power for ****. Lots of people seem to enjoy them, I just always prefered a Civic SI for an entry level "sports car". No comparison when it comes down to it, boosted FGs ROLL on new gen GTIs.

If you chose a 2013, I think you'll be quite pleased at how much of a better car it is than your GTI. you won't be done with a COBB btw, it never ends my friend. No ringland issue, just take care of your car. Do the maintenance as it is required, stick with basic bolt-ons and you will enjoy 100's of thousands of miles of reliable fun.
this isnt a thread to bash on VW's, but a dozen GTI K04 dynos all come in around 300whp to the front wheels. I'm curious what a stage 1 Cobb STI puts out tho, for comparison. I have good tires, and this is about the max power i can put to the ground.
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Old 10-31-2012, 10:04 AM   #6
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I have heard the STi clutch is a bit stiffer than the WRX clutch which, compared to the GTi I drove, is pretty similar.

It's the same engine so ringland is still an issue. It's not like it happens extremely often, but often enough it is a problem. Don't let that deter you from the car. Subaru is pretty good about replacing that in the somewhat rare event it happens.

Hope this helps!
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Old 10-31-2012, 10:19 AM   #7
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The hardest decision is whether to "settle" for the WRX base rather than STI. I have to determine how much I "need" the extras. What is the power difference stage 1 vs stage 1, WRX to STI? It would save a hell of a lot of money..
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Old 10-31-2012, 10:28 AM   #8
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yeah I settled with a WRX premium because I couldn't justify paying $5k-8k more in my situation. Kinda hard to explain but I think WRX was enough for my needs.
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Old 10-31-2012, 10:53 AM   #9
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are there any LED tail options to change the "clear" look? thats one thing i don't love on the hatches.

another big drawback with the VW's is the ECU has to be physically removed to flash the first time. (USA market mostly). I am much more into a simple OBD flash with no hassles or risks involved.
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Old 10-31-2012, 10:57 AM   #10
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The 2012 STi I test drove last weekend (had 12k miles on it, apparently a Subaru sales exec car) really suprised me with the clutch. It felt like it wasn't even there, and required barely any force to push in all the way. I couldn't even feel where it was catching either.

Either it needed a new clutch or that's just how they come stock. My '03s is really stiff in comparison; I won't know though until my 2013 gets delivered :P.
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Old 10-31-2012, 10:58 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jobber View Post
this isnt a thread to bash on VW's, but a dozen GTI K04 dynos all come in around 300whp to the front wheels. I'm curious what a stage 1 Cobb STI puts out tho, for comparison. I have good tires, and this is about the max power i can put to the ground.
congrats on slow?

Why would you change now though, I'm curious? You're a self-proclaimed Vdub guy. Why change unless you're dissatisfied?
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Old 10-31-2012, 10:59 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dub kllr View Post
congrats on slow?

Why would you change now though, I'm curious? You're a self-proclaimed Vdub guy. Why change unless you're dissatisfied?
bored i guess. I have owned a 06, 08, 09, 10, and 2011 GTI's. (With other cars mixed in between them too.) I know GTI's end to end, and I am looking for a fresh car to learn.

still have the question.. what does a simple stage 1 2012 STI dyno all 4 corners on a dynojet with 91 or 93 octane?
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Old 10-31-2012, 11:03 AM   #13
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not considering the golf R?
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Old 10-31-2012, 11:04 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jobber View Post
The hardest decision is whether to "settle" for the WRX base rather than STI. I have to determine how much I "need" the extras. What is the power difference stage 1 vs stage 1, WRX to STI? It would save a hell of a lot of money..

its not the power difference your paying for, its EVERYTHING else the sti has thats better and beefier than the WRX. the big one is the ENTIRE drivetrain. Its not even in the same playing field.

I was under the same impression when i got my wrx in 07. for a lot less i could make it as fast as an sti. and i did...but i learned something along the way. no matter how much i mod my WRX it will NEVER be an sti. just make sure you are OK with that before you make your decision. most people dont need the sti, but after learning a lot about the two, there really are a LOT of differences.
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Old 10-31-2012, 11:05 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorDucK View Post
not considering the golf R?
very good question. and no, not anymore really. but i have considered it a lot actually. comes with the older technology belt drive FSI engine which is a pain. requires regular checking of cam/fuel pump follower to avoid bigger problems. It makes better top end than my TSI, but i don't want an engine i have to check on all the time. quite a few recent water pump freezes too, grenading the whole engine. plus, my K04 GTI would smoke it, even if it was stage 2. (seen in a few videos) I don't want to get into a slower car.

i really want to step up to a more advanced car at this point, therefore the STI technology may be for me. Looking at other cars too, but i dont expect anyone around these forums to be interested. The Cadillac ATS, or Audi S4, but those are def. out of my price range.

found a dyno for 2012 stage 2 STI with downpipe.. doesnt look that great? i know AWD and the advanced drivetrain counts for something too tho.

Peak HP at RPM: 276.79 @ 3300
Peak Torque at RPM: 308.69 @ 3500

Last edited by jobber; 10-31-2012 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 10-31-2012, 11:32 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jobber View Post
very good question. and no, not anymore really. but i have considered it a lot actually. comes with the older technology belt drive FSI engine which is a pain. requires regular checking of cam/fuel pump follower to avoid bigger problems. It makes better top end than my TSI, but i don't want an engine i have to check on all the time. quite a few recent water pump freezes too, grenading the whole engine. plus, my K04 GTI would smoke it, even if it was stage 2. (seen in a few videos) I don't want to get into a slower car.

i really want to step up to a more advanced car at this point, therefore the STI technology may be for me. Looking at other cars too, but i dont expect anyone around these forums to be interested. The Cadillac ATS, or Audi S4, but those are def. out of my price range.

found a dyno for 2012 stage 2 STI with downpipe.. doesnt look that great? i know AWD and the advanced drivetrain counts for something too tho.

Peak HP at RPM: 276.79 @ 3300
Peak Torque at RPM: 308.69 @ 3500

if it bothers you then go find a dyno that ego boosts

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Old 10-31-2012, 11:33 AM   #17
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if it bothers you then go find a dyno that ego boosts

2011 Subaru Wrx Stage 2 327HP - YouTube
that's a little better. nice video.
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Old 10-31-2012, 11:34 AM   #18
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If you have hip problems I would look at the Amg (used) but the worst thing you can have happen is resent driving an Sti.
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Old 10-31-2012, 11:35 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jobber View Post
bored i guess. I have owned a 06, 08, 09, 10, and 2011 GTI's. (With other cars mixed in between them too.) I know GTI's end to end, and I am looking for a fresh car to learn.

still have the question.. what does a simple stage 1 2012 STI dyno all 4 corners on a dynojet with 91 or 93 octane?
TBE and pro tune will net you well over 300whp.
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Old 10-31-2012, 11:59 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by jobber View Post
that's a little better. nice video.
it isn't my video, but to give you an idea the car was on a dynojet for the video and it made quite a bit less power on a mustang.
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Old 10-31-2012, 12:36 PM   #21
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Did anyone else notice the boatload of blue smoke around 0:35-0:40 in the video?

You'll definitely like the newer Subaru compared to the VW if you are willing to sacrifice the VW sound system. (The only good thing VW has been good for!)

I would do a little more searching around as far as pricing goes. PM me if you want as I don't think we can disclose numbers on NASIOC, I can tell you that you should be able to do better!

'13 hatch is a good choice!

Just my .02
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Old 10-31-2012, 12:40 PM   #22
jobber
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only risk could be if my hip joints act up a year down the line and im screwed with stick shift. i guess its a big risk to take.. wish they had the DCT? something or other auto trans in USA. I think it only came out 1 or 2 years?
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Old 10-31-2012, 12:45 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jobber View Post
this isnt a thread to bash on VW's, but a dozen GTI K04 dynos all come in around 300whp to the front wheels. I'm curious what a stage 1 Cobb STI puts out tho, for comparison. I have good tires, and this is about the max power i can put to the ground.
http://accessecu.com/dyno/

There is the Cobb dyno database. Filter by car, year, mods, and find what you are looking for

Quote:
Originally Posted by jobber View Post
are there any LED tail options to change the "clear" look? thats one thing i don't love on the hatches.

another big drawback with the VW's is the ECU has to be physically removed to flash the first time. (USA market mostly). I am much more into a simple OBD flash with no hassles or risks involved.
Tails you have two options: 1) remove and paint with a "Stained glass red" type rattle can 2) buy vinyl overlays from IAG or forum member BlueBatmobile and install them

Link to overlay thread
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2183170

Flashing, yes my friend just purchased a 2012 TDI Passat, and wants to mod but doesn't want to remove ECU just for a flash.
I showed him my Accesport and he loved it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jobber View Post
bored i guess. I have owned a 06, 08, 09, 10, and 2011 GTI's. (With other cars mixed in between them too.) I know GTI's end to end, and I am looking for a fresh car to learn.

still have the question.. what does a simple stage 1 2012 STI dyno all 4 corners on a dynojet with 91 or 93 octane?
See Cobb dyno database above.

As for them being rare, you are right. Any places around me in MO never had them on the lot, not even base WRXs. I had two options, order or wait for a used one to pop up. I lucked out, right before I made a decision to order a used one popped up in my price range. As for people justifying between WRX and STI that is a big decision. Any new STI in my area sells for 38-40k with little or no negotiation. Just the price you pay for fun.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jobber View Post
only risk could be if my hip joints act up a year down the line and im screwed with stick shift. i guess its a big risk to take.. wish they had the DCT? something or other auto trans in USA. I think it only came out 1 or 2 years?
This is sacrilegious for this site but if you are worried about that have you ever thought of an EVO MR? It comes with the TC-SST which is manual mode or paddle shifters. It's obviously similar to an STI, small, turbo, AWD 4 cly and you won't have to worry about your medical concerns.

http://www.edmunds.com/mitsubishi/la...m=mr&sub=sedan

Last edited by JSchell1309; 10-31-2012 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 10-31-2012, 01:39 PM   #24
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This is sacrilegious for this site.
i can imagine..
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Old 10-31-2012, 02:17 PM   #25
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I've got to ask. Why is it that the VW crowd always quotes power figures at the engine and rarely ever that of wheel power

Anywho, stock 08+ WRXs and STIs have the potential to go 12.9-13.1@103-104mph stock though most are in the mid 13s@101ish. You'll be hard pressed to find a basic bolt-on and tuned GTI running the same ETs without slicks and a prayer. The modded GTI would likely get it at speeds above 80mph, but the acceleration Gs in the lower MPHs is what makes these cars so fun. Also the fact that you can go WOT from any speed without much worry of excessive wheel spin. I'm still getting use to it.

09+ WRXs are rated at 265hp, but actually make closer to 280-285hp or roughly 235-245awhp/awtq. The STIs make fractionally more power, but they weigh about 120lbs more so the acceleration difference below 110mph or so is about the same.

A Stage I (simply a flash) WRX/STI will make in the neighborhood of around 255-265awhp/280awtq. Stage I cars typically see a .2-.3 second and 2-3mph 1/4 mile improvement. Stage II cars can see 280-285awhp/300awtq+. Many have gone 12.7-12.9@105-107mph with the Stage II cars.

Ringland failures do happen, but not at the rate NAISOC would have you believe. For whatever reason, the ringland issues do appear to afflict the 08+ STIs more often, especially once you go Stage II.

You do risk any warranty coverage once you tamper with the ECU. Stage II cars are often denied motor coverage. Guys with Stage I cars do get lucky on occasion getting coverage. Buyer beware.

I'm in the minority in that I'm quite happy with the stock power of this car. I've had fast cars in the past and it gets old trying to be the fastest guy on the street. There's always someone faster and the compromises of pushing a motor past it's designed operating range can be problematic. Since these are turbo cars, it's very easy to gain 25-30% more power over stock. People act surprised when their motor gives up on such "simple" mods. I think they need to realize that just because it's simple, cheap, and easy to do doesn't mean it does affect reliability. People spend thousands upon thousands to gain 20whp and 15wtq in peak power on an NA motor. You can gain 20-30whp and 50wtq and significantly elevate the powerband with a $300 tuner on these EJ25s.
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