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Old 10-12-2012, 02:52 PM   #201
KC
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Maybe there's some confusion.

A non-licensed, new driver doing 100+ in the rain, when he had no business being out by LAW (under age, past time allowed, no one in car of appropriate age, etc...) was no accident. His driving wasn't an accident. His pre-meditated actions weren't an accident. His being there, at that time, were no accident.

The result of his above actions/miscalcuations CAUSED an accident to HAPPEN.

That help?

--kC
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:53 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Ray@revitup View Post
Take a look at all the Toxicologist, Crime Scene investigators, Accident investigators and experts we have. How about we just all express our condolences for the families and friends and wait for an investigation before we come to conclusions. Besides regardless if you buy your kids a WRX or a Ford Pinto, If you are not careful and respect the road the same thing would happen.
This is a 17 year old driver with a learners permit who had an accident at 3:40am with four other teens in the car.

Some of the laws that were broken were referenced in the news report, others I pointed out via the NY DMV site that lists the restrictions that accompany drivers in NY who have a Learners Permit or a Junior License (which has most of the same restrictions, but this kid didn't even have his Junior License).

It does not take a law degree to see that this 17 year old is in a lot of legal trouble -- the legal consequences are not there just to punish drivers who kill four of their friends, but to discourage others from doing the same stupid thing.

That's why reporters reported on the story, and partly why we talk about it, along with discussing the pro's and con's of giving a 17 year old with a learners permit a new STI to drive around at 3 in the morning with four teenage passengers, unsupervised (that's three broken laws right there, well before he violated whatever traffic laws he violated on his way toward that tree).

These are not rash conclusions, unless we somehow learn that actually the 17 year old kid had an unrestricted license, and lost control of the car while driving the speed limit. Then this would all be just conjecture.

Last edited by Zeeper; 10-12-2012 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:02 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Lechurus
Out of all those kids, only one looked like a decent human being not a Jersey Shore hopeful, rich kids too... I can't really feel bad, I feel worse for the car there goes $40,000 in a flash because pounding beers in a high power car seemed cool at the time. S**t like this pisses me off instead of evoking sadness.
Little chlorine in those family gene pools.
Yes, how dare they not look and act exactly like you! Fact is nobody knows what these kids were like and basing them on ****ty pictures on Facebook is a bad way to go about judging people. News reports have said they graduated from school early and the driver was beginning to take college classes. And not feeling bad for the dead passengers because they look like they come from money? Really?
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Old 10-12-2012, 05:05 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC View Post
Maybe there's some confusion.

A non-licensed, new driver doing 100+ in the rain, when he had no business being out by LAW (under age, past time allowed, no one in car of appropriate age, etc...) was no accident. His driving wasn't an accident. His pre-meditated actions weren't an accident. His being there, at that time, were no accident.

The result of his above actions/miscalcuations CAUSED an accident to HAPPEN.

That help?

--kC
+1

I doubt he intended to crash... unless it was some sort of suicide pact.
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Old 10-12-2012, 05:08 PM   #205
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Really? Nobody? You mean all the young drivers reading this thread that say it was an accident, or not all 17 year olds are this way aren't in some ways advocating that its "OK" because we were all young and stupid too? OK. If you believe that to be the case.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't perceive people saying it was an accident is defending him because, in fact, the end result (wreck, 4 people dead) was not intended. It was an accident. Every person I've seen who said that was saying, "Oh, it sucks. My condolences to the families. Hope the kid doesn't do too bad. etc." Personally, I've been defending the onslaught of people bashing young kids/parents for a 300hp car. That's it. Not the kid. Clearly stupid, assuming he was going stupid speeds on that road. Clearly not the best idea to drive without his license. But let's be real, I snuck out with my vehicle before I got my license twice. I drove super carefully but I did it nonetheless. As someone being young, the idea of driving was so damn appealing I just had to do it.

So the driver was clearly stupid. I do not disagree. But I don't see anyone in here actually defending him and his actions. That was what I meant.


Quote:
I'll give you assumption, but not outrageous, and definitely not silly. It's rooted in fact as being in a family of 1st responders and seeing what speeds require certain things to happen... and that he won't get out of this without any kind of serious penalty, the very least being 4 counts of manslaughter.

To take a Subaru with it's modern, highly touted and accolated OEM safety cage and split it in 1/2 requires quite a bit of 'talent' and speed. Logic therefore dicates the speeds he had to be going to accompolish such a feat are in the very least in triple digits.
Quite the opposite actually, many teens are not wreckless. (I know... typo)
Ehh, again, not saying he didn't drive stupid to cause the end result.


Quote:
Agreed.

The driver doing 100+ mph at 3am on wet roads, when by all intents and purposes he shouldn't have even been behind the wheel at the time was not an accident.

The end result of his choices (in the trees and 4 dead) however, is by definition, an accident.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accident



--kC
It appears we agree here. Of course I will not say his actions did not put him in a position that made him prone to an accident. Unfortunately, it happened and there were four lives lost as a result of it. The kid is going to have that on his mind no matter how many years he does, no matter what he does. He is mentally ****ed now.

This is the only way I will defend him, mostly because I think it is enough. I don't think he should do much time in jail. Why not? Because I promise you, t his kid won't be doing what he did again. I promise you, this kid has learned his lesson. His life sucks now, he knows it, and he is feeling the pain of his poor actions. In my opinion, just let him free in the world. His thoughts alone will haunt him for life. Similar to that case where the woman caused the drunk driving incident, killed others, and ****ed her face up. She had all the negative consequences of her actions already. Why add more? To me, years on top of that almost seems like unfair punishment. However, I would entirely understand if he did a few years.
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Old 10-12-2012, 05:19 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by smokeroors View Post
Yes, how dare they not look and act exactly like you! Fact is nobody knows what these kids were like and basing them on ****ty pictures on Facebook is a bad way to go about judging people. News reports have said they graduated from school early and the driver was beginning to take college classes. And not feeling bad for the dead passengers because they look like they come from money? Really?
+1
I really don't understand how somebody could be so bitter, when it just as easily could have been them, or their brother, or their kid etc. Or when people bash others for being more fortunate than them (lucky as well). I mean heck, if it was 1970 and you turned 16, and pops pulls up in a '70 hemi cuda and tosses you the keys, you'd really say "no dad, I can't, because in 42 years when I'm on nasioc, I don't want to be THAT guy that got a cool car when he turned 16" . We get it guys, it was a dumb move. He shouldn't have been doing what he was doing, especially the part where he had the car loaded up with people, but assuming that he was drunk is just asinine. I've seen worse wrecks happen right in front of me involving 2 cars that didn't even total 2/3 of the HP of an STi. Not to mention, your average modern v6 camaro/v6 mustang traps near what an STi does, so this comparison is stupid.
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Old 10-12-2012, 05:25 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by FaastLegacy View Post
STis and Subarus in general are built like brick **** houses. They had to have been going triple digit speeds to split the car in two like that. It reminds me a lot of this accident:

http://jalopnik.com/349540/flying-bm...ts-darwin-wins

Folks, this is why you don't give a child a high performance automobile.

And, after that, I'm sure some 16 year old is going to come in here and tell me how safe of a driver they are in their STi......
Im a umm great driver.... ...time to slow down from now on after seeing this
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Old 10-13-2012, 03:33 PM   #208
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Im a umm great driver.... ...time to slow down from now on after seeing this
I'm 28 and it gave me a second of pause, FWIW. Granted, I don't do triple digit speeds on cold, wet asphalt, around a turn, on summer tires though either.
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Old 10-13-2012, 03:42 PM   #209
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When I taught physics, we often discussed the kinetic energy formula, which basically says that every time you double your speed, your impact energy and stopping distance increase by a factor of four. Compared to a 50mph crash, the energies involved in this case were phenomenal.

So easy for an STi to generate this kind of speed in a hurry. And this is why "speed kills," even though, of course, lesser speeds can kill as well.

Just going from 50mph to 70mph doubles the stopping distance and energy of impact.

I find it incredible that the driver survived. Still an impressive testimony to Subaru construction.
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Old 10-14-2012, 03:11 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by FaastLegacy View Post
STis and Subarus in general are built like brick **** houses. They had to have been going triple digit speeds to split the car in two like that. It reminds me a lot of this accident:

http://jalopnik.com/349540/flying-bm...ts-darwin-wins
My Mom & Dad live in Ocala. I remember them telling me about that crash.

I agree. Power + inexperience multiplied by recklessness = tragedy
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Old 10-14-2012, 10:53 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Dave D. View Post
When I taught physics, we often discussed the kinetic energy formula, which basically says that every time you double your speed, your impact energy and stopping distance increase by a factor of four. Compared to a 50mph crash, the energies involved in this case were phenomenal.

So easy for an STi to generate this kind of speed in a hurry. And this is why "speed kills," even though, of course, lesser speeds can kill as well.

Just going from 50mph to 70mph doubles the stopping distance and energy of impact.

I find it incredible that the driver survived. Still an impressive testimony to Subaru construction.
At that speed, it is very likely a piece of foam insulation broke loose, damaging the outer skin of the vehicle, and it just disintegrated before it even left the road.
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:25 AM   #212
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I blame the parent's for handing over such a high powered car let alone a first time driver learner IDIOT'S
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:49 AM   #213
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What "journalist" wrote this article??

"Some handled the anguish better than others. One angry teenager, apparently furious with Beer, barked out, “Tell the driver I’m coming for him” before splitting."
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:17 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by REX8 View Post
Uggg...this kind of incorrect thinking is a contributor to the problem. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

In reality, what is "way lower"?

There is less than a 10% difference in the skidpad and braking numbers of the cars.

Yup, .84 for the Ford vs. .90 for the STI.

10%.

However, ignorant people get into these cars and think they can now double the speed of corners these took in their Taurus. When in reality, you could only take it a few MPH faster than you could in your mother's Taurus. They have no grasp of just how (relatively) little the improvement of a car like an STI (or any other car really) is.

Sorry, it's not "way lower". It's actually only fractionally lower. And while that's all the difference to experienced drivers, and feels different, it's a HUGE problem for uneducated drivers.

Fast, sporty cars arguably encourage people to drive faster. And, contrary to uneducated beliefs, actually can not magically stop and turn leaps and bounds greater than more pedestrian cars.

Hence, kids wind up in a ditch, thinking their car could do something it absolutely can't.


"Watch how fast I can take this turn in my STI!" <--- you think that kid enters that corner at 5 mph faster than he did in his Taurus? No, he enters 20 MPH faster, and kills himself.
Saying that a ford taurus is 90% performance of a STI takes away all your credibility. I enjoy arguing about stuff online but this is just stupid. Why is everyone on nasioc getting STIs instead of a Ford Taurus? Might as well get 2 CPOs Fords for the price of one STI: one for DD and one for the track (with coil overs and brembos of course). Oh yes, it must be because of the AWD lol.

This just shows that you do not understand what a performance car is.

Last edited by moonrider_99; 10-14-2012 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:22 PM   #215
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:28 PM   #216
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^^^^^^^ awesome
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Old 10-14-2012, 09:24 PM   #217
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Seems to me this is just another case of teenagers thinking they're invincible. It's been happening since forever. It's just a tragic part of growing up. If there was bad parenting involved, that makes it even worse.
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Old 10-16-2012, 02:32 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by FaastLegacy View Post
STis and Subarus in general are built like brick **** houses. They had to have been going triple digit speeds to split the car in two like that. It reminds me a lot of this accident:

http://jalopnik.com/349540/flying-bm...ts-darwin-wins

Folks, this is why you don't give a child a high performance automobile.

And, after that, I'm sure some 16 year old is going to come in here and tell me how safe of a driver they are in their STi......
No *****, sadly this is exactly what I was thinking. Tragic accident but unfortunately what I expect from kids in fast cars. Parents are doing their kids and themselves a serious disservice getting them cars like this. It's far too much for such an inexperienced driver.
That kids parents and he himself just destroyed 5 families lives, all over a car.
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Old 10-16-2012, 05:51 PM   #219
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Has there been any update on the cause of the accident, actual speeds, drug or alcohol involvement yet?
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Old 10-16-2012, 06:13 PM   #220
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Going to say that's what happens when you give a kid a sports car. I also thought I knew everything when I was 17, I just got lucky enough not to allow Darwin to catch up. 90% of us did things in our youths that could have ended like this. **** happen...even faster when you throw 300hp, AWD, and the balls of a 17 year old with buddy's he's trying to impress.
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Old 10-16-2012, 06:15 PM   #221
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Also let's remember...speed does not kill. It's rapidly becoming stationary that kills you.
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Old 10-18-2012, 04:30 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Molonlabemike View Post
Also let's remember...speed does not kill. It's rapidly becoming stationary that kills you.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...&postcount=112

You don't say!

--kC
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Old 10-18-2012, 07:03 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Molonlabemike
Also let's remember...speed does not kill. It's rapidly becoming stationary that kills you.
Holy **** that's funny! Reminds me of Ron White - "it's not THAT the wind is blowing, it's WHAT the wind is blowing"
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:51 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by smokeroors View Post
Yes, how dare they not look and act exactly like you! Fact is nobody knows what these kids were like and basing them on ****ty pictures on Facebook is a bad way to go about judging people. News reports have said they graduated from school early and the driver was beginning to take college classes. And not feeling bad for the dead passengers because they look like they come from money? Really?
What a bunch of touchy craps some of you can be sometimes. Damned moralfuggs.
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEE and flamewar over 1 paragraph, my opinion, your problem with my post is not my problem.... So keep quoting them if you like to have a ragegasm.
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:25 PM   #225
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What a bunch of touchy craps some of you can be sometimes. Damned moralfuggs.
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEE and flamewar over 1 paragraph, my opinion, your problem with my post is not my problem.... So keep quoting them if you like to have a ragegasm.
You bumped a thread from a month ago to bless us with that incoherant sentence?
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