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Old 10-08-2012, 02:40 PM   #1
Mr Wrex
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Default EWG Setups - EBCS vs MBC vs Hybrid

OK, so I finally got my EWG setup up and running. Currently, I have a Tial 38mm EWG, Grimmspeed UP w/ 38mm flange, and I'm running the hybrid boost control setup. The dump tube vents straight to atmosphere and is loud as a squirrel bumping boots with a donkey. If anyone has questions, feel free to send me a pm and I'll help you as best as I can. Lots of info in this thread, but I can understand if it's too much to skim through to get the answer(s) you may want.




Original post:
Before any decides to flame me, yes I have searched the forums for info (over 20 threads to be specific ). I have figured out a few tidbits of info, but they were lacking in detail. I have been getting boost creep up the bum lately and an EWG seems to be the best way to eliminate it, but I won't get one until I fully understand what setup(s) would work best.

This is what I have gathered from them so far:
1) MBC allows for the constant "screaming" sound at WOT, but bypasses the ECU boost control
3) EBCS produces the flutter sound most of the time because it constantly opens/closes the EWG to maintain target boost

What I'd like to know from you guys is the following:
1) Boost control method (EBCS, MBC, Hybrid?)
2) EWG size (38mm or 44mm?)
3) Do you have wastegate "flutter"? If so, what rpm interval(s) do you hear it at?
4) EWG Spring size
5) Target boost

Please try to avoid derailing this thread or asking questions I want this thread to be informative for us newbs when we decide to run an EWG so that we don't have several new posts a week about them.
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Last edited by Mr Wrex; 10-03-2013 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 10-08-2012, 02:55 PM   #2
dsmtweaker
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1. 3port EBCS
2. 44mm
3. Had flutter with initial tuner, new tuner got rid of it all together(at least I can't hear it anymore)
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:02 PM   #3
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I have a 44mm EWG and I've used all of the setups you mention (MBC, 3 port EBCS, and Hybrid). The MBC will not flutter. The Hybrid setup usually will not flutter, but it depends how it is tuned. If it's tuned so that the MBC is doing all the work at WOT, then it won't flutter, but Hybrid systems are not always tuned like this.

A 3-port EBCS will always flutter. It can be tuned to be less noticeable, but it's always there. Depending on EWG spring(s) and tuning it can be very noticeable. For an EWG setup on stock turbo, a 38mm EWG will probably be the way to go. Going overly large on a smaller turbo isn't going to help anything. At worst it can make boost harder to control.
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:09 PM   #4
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I also had to go to EWG on my 11' WRX because of boost creep. It solved the problem instantly. I was already using a EBCS and just added the EWG. I choose a 38mm. Anytime the EWG is open ~15psi+ it flutters. If you dont want the flutter you can choose a MBC. At one time I disconnected my EBCS and ran it on WG spring pressure and it was a smooth constant dump. The flutter doesnt bother be but its not for everyone.

Make sure you get with your tuner on what spring to run. Im running about .1bar to light but I experience almost NO taper.

Make full boost (19.5psi) @2700rpm also =D (VF52)

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Old 10-08-2012, 03:13 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subie_Noob_Brian View Post
...At one time I disconnected my EBCS and ran it on WG spring pressure and it was a smooth constant dump...
Is it possible to ditch the boost controller and just run it off the spring pressure? What are the risks/benefits associated with this?
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:16 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subie_Noob_Brian View Post
Anytime the EWG is open ~15psi+ it flutters. If you dont want the flutter you can choose a MBC. At one time I disconnected my EBCS and ran it on WG spring pressure and it was a smooth constant dump. The flutter doesnt bother be but its not for everyone.
IMHO, it sounds like absolute crap. Why wouldn't you plub it back into the exhaust? That noise alone would make me seek alternatives over running an EWG!
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:18 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Wrex View Post
Is it possible to ditch the boost controller and just run it off the spring pressure? What are the risks/benefits associated with this?
Well most like my EBC came disconnected some how lol. I hooked it back up when I noticed the EWG sounded different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black94Snake View Post
IMHO, it sounds like absolute crap. Why wouldn't you plub it back into the exhaust? That noise alone would make me seek alternatives over running an EWG!
Like I said in my post. NOT EVERYONE WILL LIKE IT. Honestly I think its fun. Its very surprising to people.
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:30 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Wrex View Post
Is it possible to ditch the boost controller and just run it off the spring pressure? What are the risks/benefits associated with this?
Yes, if you properly choose your wastegate spring, then you can run no boost controller. It is similar to using just a manual boost controller except that you won't be able to adjust it at all. If you want something simple, I would at least run a MBC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black94Snake View Post
IMHO, it sounds like absolute crap. Why wouldn't you plub it back into the exhaust? That noise alone would make me seek alternatives over running an EWG!
Mine only opens at 20+ psi, so I don't really mind. I think it sound cool anyways.
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:47 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black94Snake View Post
IMHO, it sounds like absolute crap. Why wouldn't you plub it back into the exhaust? That noise alone would make me seek alternatives over running an EWG!
Where is the fun in that?

I love the external dump, sounds like you jumped from a 4cyl to a V12, and scares the crap out of people a lot of times.

Here is mine, back when we were tuning(this was AP+first tuner) Im now at 21psi, and open source tuned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTJP...eature=mh_lolz
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:26 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmtweaker View Post
Where is the fun in that?
so true! plumbing it to the DP wouldn't get rid of the flutter and it'd take away some power the EWG provides...

I was checking out different ways to hook up a 3-port EBCS and this one caught my attention. Would running hoses to the top and bottom of the EWG essentially be the same as just running off the EWG spring?

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Old 10-09-2012, 08:30 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Wrex View Post
Would running hoses to the top and bottom of the EWG essentially be the same as just running off the EWG spring?
No. The spring pressure holding it shut with the addition of the boost supply pressure holding it shut is greater than the boost pressure trying to press against the spring alone.
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:37 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by jay25RS View Post
No. The spring pressure holding it shut with the addition of the boost supply pressure holding it shut is greater than the boost pressure trying to press against the spring alone.
Is that always the case? I read that as "the EWG will never open," but then again I did just wake up and my brain isn't on yet..

Also, mind telling me/us what EWG setup you're running? Or which ones you've tried?
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:53 AM   #13
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This is my setup

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Old 10-09-2012, 09:31 AM   #14
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Saved. I had many of the same questions as the OP. I'v just been researching EWG and how it helps boost control on stock turbos. Thanks for maki the thread OP, especially since there isn't a Unabomber manifesto for this.
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:47 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSchell1309 View Post
Saved. I had many of the same questions as the OP. I'v just been researching EWG and how it helps boost control on stock turbos. Thanks for maki the thread OP, especially since there isn't a Unabomber manifesto for this.
Technically, Senor Una has a boost control FAQ that contains info on EWGs... it just lacks the specifics that most of us would like to know (no offense man ). Once I collect enough data from everyone, I'll try to compile it into a more coherent FAQ to alleviate the confusion/myths.
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:20 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Wrex View Post
Is that always the case? I read that as "the EWG will never open," but then again I did just wake up and my brain isn't on yet..
If you run 5psi to the top of the EWG and 5 psi to the bottom it would be a net of '0'. Add in the spring which helps to hold it shut and that + 5psi is > than 5 psi alone. If you want spring pressure, run the boost source to the bottom port without a EBCS or MBC. Some setups call for the top port to remain open.

See post #13's diagram, This has boost pressure at the bottom of the EWG trying to open it and then the EBCS will regulate how much pressure is allowed to the top of the EWG to help hold it shut. It let's some off and back into the inlet hose as requested by the ECU.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Wrex View Post
Also, mind telling me/us what EWG setup you're running? Or which ones you've tried?
I don't have an EWG on my car... But I did use a 38mm (2 bolt Tial) on a 2006 WRX with a built engine on a VF39 and a vband 38mm Tial with water cooling option on a 2007 STI with an AMS rotated turbo kit.

For the '06 WRX, I used a hybrid setup with a GM EBCS and a Hallman MBC.

For the '07 STI I used a setup like post #13.
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:27 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jay25RS View Post
For the '06 WRX, I used a hybrid setup with a GM EBCS and a Hallman MBC.

For the '07 STI I used a setup like post #13.
Ok cool. So for each setup, what spring did you use, what psi did you run, and did you notice fluttering? If so, what rpm range did it flutter at?
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:54 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Mr Wrex View Post
Ok cool. So for each setup, what spring did you use, what psi did you run, and did you notice fluttering? If so, what rpm range did it flutter at?
I used whatever came with the AMS kit for the '07 STI and whatever my friend had gotten with the used setup for the WRX (I think it was a yellow spring...). It had some flutter and it was based on approaching the target boost.
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:47 AM   #19
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So far the general consensus seems to be:
1) EBCS will always flutter, but tunes can reduce the severity
2) hybrid can eliminate flutter depending on how it's tuned
3) MBC will never flutter

I'm still pretty interested in the hybrid setup if anyone has some input on theirs
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:37 PM   #20
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Good thread. Answered some Q's i had since im thinking of going EWG
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Old 10-11-2012, 09:00 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by masterforce View Post
Good thread. Answered some Q's i had since im thinking of going EWG
Glad it did

Dug up some pretty interesting comments on hybrid setups: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...602674&page=22
Go to the following posts:
#531
#539
#543
#548 (talks about cons of pure MBC)

Grimmspeeds hybrid setup:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/atta...3&d=1347293244

To sum it up, it seems the hyrbid setup works by using the EBCS to control boost during partial throttle and the BCS to control boost at WOT. This retains the ECUs ability to run the lean mode should something go wrong.
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Old 10-11-2012, 09:14 AM   #22
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i dont know why you are so caught up on "flutter", as it makes no difference whatsoever.

wastegate's work by diverting un-needed exhaust around the turbine and out an outlet (external wastegate in this case). Now the computer needs to tell the wastegate when this valve should open.

There are 3 different ways for the car to communicate with the wastegate

1. wastegate spring pressure - once the exhasut gas reaches or exceeds this spring pressure, the wastegate opens, and all extra air leaves via wastegate. Can only open at one pressure (the pressure of the wg spring).

2. MBC - acts just like a wastegate spring, except you can control the psi at which the wastegate valve opens/closes. can only open at one pressure (PSI) that the user sets it at

3. ebcs - uses computers to control the pressure at which the wastegate opens. The nice thing about ebcs is that they can change the level of psi that causes the wastegate to open, unlike MBC or wastegate spring. This allows you to run higher boost at low rpm, and taper off boost at higher rpm. this is verry common on subarus running smaller turbos.
It shoul be noted this can not be done on a MBC. with an MBC you only get one target and that is the only level of boost you can run in any gear at any rpm. With EBCS you can run different boost at ifferent rpm. This allows for greater control in tuning, and often more power.

Now that you understand the ifferences, you need to know how they work. MBC operate by opening a valve at a set pressure. the air flowing through creates a whoosh soun

an EBCS operates like a solenoid, by opening and closing a valve really fast to acheive the target pressure. This rapid opening and closing is what causes the fluttering sound.

THE Fluttering sound IS NOT BAD. You simply need to know how all these parts work, and what their function is so you can understand what is going on. hopefully that cleared something up, and you learned something today.

personally i run an EBCS, because it allows better/more boost control. that fluttering sound is suppose to happen and its nothing bad, so dont freak out

if all i cared about was "whoosh" vs "flutter" then i could get an MBC, but i care more about performance and the overall power and tuning capabilities of my car so i choose EBCS.
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Old 10-11-2012, 09:24 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 07VTRex View Post
i dont know why you are so caught up on "flutter", as it makes no difference whatsoever.
I'm not caught up on it, I'm simply stating this is one of the biggest concerns people have when going to an EWG setup as it's annoying sounding. This thread is to help clarrify the pros and cons of the different EWG setups, nothing more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 07VTRex View Post
an EBCS operates like a solenoid, by opening and closing a valve really fast to acheive the target pressure. This rapid opening and closing is what causes the fluttering sound.

THE Fluttering sound IS NOT BAD. You simply need to know how all these parts work, and what their function is so you can understand what is going on. hopefully that cleared something up, and you learned something today.
Already knew that the EBCS quickly opens and closes to maintain accurate boost levels. Thanks for "teaching" me

EDIT:
This info will be useful for anyone reading this thread if they don't understand how boost controllers work, so thank you for teaching them
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Old 10-11-2012, 09:35 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by 07VTRex View Post
THE Fluttering sound IS NOT BAD. You simply need to know how all these parts work, and what their function is so you can understand what is going on. hopefully that cleared something up, and you learned something today.
+1. Back in the day people were adjusting their waste gate actuator arms on TD04's to try to get rid of flutter... Then people realized the fluttering sound was normal and was part of the system controlling boost. It was joked then that people would be loosening their waste gate arms to try to get flutter.
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Old 10-11-2012, 09:55 AM   #25
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Running a Dom 1.5xtr with 38mm ewg and grimmspeed ebcs. Flutter doesn't bother me
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