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Old 10-11-2012, 08:18 PM   #101
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All this talk about handling and shifter feel and so on has made me decide to take one out for a test drive Saturday.

I have zero intention on owning one though. I love the way it looks. I'm sure it performs very well. But the overall package does not meet my requirements. When I drive it ill add my impressions to the rest here. For reference these are the cars of similar nature that I have owned:
02 WRX sedan--intake, DP, cbe, SS, ap and tune, jdm ver8 STi full suspension

Sold to buy...

07 ms3 gt-- stock it was faster and better handling than the modded WRX. Put an inlet, CAI, DP, bpv, and SS on it. Disliked how it felt after that.

08 STi-- tmic, tbe, SS, bpv, ap. loved 99% of the car. Found out previous owner trashed it.

08 GTI w/dsg-- comfortable but I hated driving it. Boring and slow and then the problems started...

Currently in an 11 WRX hatch that has DP, SS, and the Tp stg 2 map. Love 99.9% of this car.
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:47 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by REX8 View Post
yes!
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:44 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost Rider View Post
All this talk about handling and shifter feel and so on has made me decide to take one out for a test drive Saturday.

I have zero intention on owning one though. I love the way it looks. I'm sure it performs very well. But the overall package does not meet my requirements. When I drive it ill add my impressions to the rest here. For reference these are the cars of similar nature that I have owned:
02 WRX sedan--intake, DP, cbe, SS, ap and tune, jdm ver8 STi full suspension

Sold to buy...

07 ms3 gt-- stock it was faster and better handling than the modded WRX. Put an inlet, CAI, DP, bpv, and SS on it. Disliked how it felt after that.

08 STi-- tmic, tbe, SS, bpv, ap. loved 99% of the car. Found out previous owner trashed it.

08 GTI w/dsg-- comfortable but I hated driving it. Boring and slow and then the problems started...

Currently in an 11 WRX hatch that has DP, SS, and the Tp stg 2 map. Love 99.9% of this car.
It appears you are ready for another FWD if you continue your pattern. I predict you will end up with an ST, and add a DP, SS, BPV, TP, STG, CAI, APB, FYI.
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Old 10-12-2012, 01:02 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kukabuka

It appears you are ready for another FWD if you continue your pattern. I predict you will end up with an ST, and add a DP, SS, BPV, TP, STG, CAI, APB, FYI.
IMO, this is TMI. IDK, maybe I'm just picky, but IIRC this is an ST thread.
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Old 10-12-2012, 01:08 PM   #105
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I sat in one at a local dealer near my work, they wouldn't let me test drive it. It was one of the Tangerine ones and it was optioned out to a little over $29K. I really liked the seats although the color scheme was a bit loud for my tastes. I didn't think they were as good as the BRZ seats but maybe it was just the seating position. It looks good in person, I'm not a big fan of the wheels but they are not horrible. I like the BRZ wheels so maybe I'm a poor judge of that.

It will be interesting to see if people autocross them, it does have 18x8 wheels stock which you can put decent sized tires on. It has no stock camber adjustment but folks seem to be getting about -1 stock in the front. Even though the MS3 may seem better on paper, it has never been as successful as the WRX in autocross competing in the same classes.

I don't know if I could see myself spending $29K on it, but I still want to test drive one.
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:59 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost Rider View Post
All this talk about handling and shifter feel and so on has made me decide to take one out for a test drive Saturday.

I have zero intention on owning one though. I love the way it looks. I'm sure it performs very well. But the overall package does not meet my requirements. When I drive it ill add my impressions to the rest here. For reference these are the cars of similar nature that I have owned:
02 WRX sedan--intake, DP, cbe, SS, ap and tune, jdm ver8 STi full suspension

Sold to buy...

07 ms3 gt-- stock it was faster and better handling than the modded WRX. Put an inlet, CAI, DP, bpv, and SS on it. Disliked how it felt after that.

08 STi-- tmic, tbe, SS, bpv, ap. loved 99% of the car. Found out previous owner trashed it.

08 GTI w/dsg-- comfortable but I hated driving it. Boring and slow and then the problems started...

Currently in an 11 WRX hatch that has DP, SS, and the Tp stg 2 map. Love 99.9% of this car.
Ghost Rider I know EXACTLY what you are saying. My 2006 STI was just like a passionate GirlFriend who is hot and fiesty. They are a wild ride, but at times are not the right for the occasion. The WRX when properly modded gives you more wiggle room for where you want to take the car. It does not start off so on the ragged edge like the STI does. You can flavor the insanity to your tastes.

The only I get the less I want to modify my Daily Driver. I just want it to work and be fun. I just did an entire engine/tranny/diff transplant in my 240Z that I Love working on. I do not want to fiddle that much with my car I rely on day to day.

The MS3 is perfect right out of the box for a fun reliable daily driver. I was hoping the Focus ST would be the go to car for a car I do not have to worry about modding other than putting more tires and brake pads on. I am still undecided on it, but its tight rear room has me second guessing it. The WRX is bigger back there, and the Golf R is even bigger still. We are only talking about an inch or two but those truly matter when you are talking about a rear facing car seat which are now about the size of a Fiat 500.

I am going to take the advice of a wise engineer here at NASA. One of the grey beards that has worked here since Apollo.

"Things are never as bad as they first seem they are, likewise, things are never as good as first seem they are..."

wise words.

So in the spirit of that, I am going to test drive a Golf R again, and see if the steering is as bad as I remember. I am also going to test drive an ST again, but this time I will pay special attention to the dampers.
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:37 PM   #107
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Scrappy,

If you buy a car and have money to play with, I doubt it will ever stay stock. The best part of buying the ST is the idea of having ford backed performance parts. If an RS ever comes out. The same suspension will easily carry over, and i have no doubt ford will carry the parts. Ford is by far a more friendly environment for mods than most other makes.

The only thing that would make me buy a VW is the idea that they might bring a real LSD to market. The one thing i was pissed off that mini ditched.

BlitZ
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Old 10-14-2012, 05:21 PM   #108
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As some of us said before, no LSD for the Focus ST is really going to kill performance and driving pleasure.

Here's the EVO's comparison of Focus ST with a Vauxhall. At the end, the reviewer says: Focus ST is not as much fun/is slower and it needs a LSD. He also complains of the lack of traction mid corner....

By the way, impressive "drifts" with FWD cars in this review, with this level of skill, I'm willing to agree with anything that he says lol.


Last edited by moonrider_99; 10-14-2012 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 10-14-2012, 07:28 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonrider_99
As some of us said before, no LSD for the Focus ST is really going to kill performance and driving pleasure.

Here's the EVO's comparison of Focus ST with a Vauxhall. At the end, the reviewer says: Focus ST is not as much fun/is slower and it needs a LSD. He also complains of the lack of traction mid corner....

By the way, impressive "drifts" with FWD cars in this review, with this level of skill, I'm willing to agree with anything that he says lol.

Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTdHQZohOZA
It really shows how good these FWD hatches really are when the proverbial nut behind the wheel knowns what he's doing.
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Old 10-14-2012, 07:33 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by moonrider_99 View Post
By the way, impressive "drifts" with FWD cars in this review, with this level of skill, I'm willing to agree with anything that he says lol.
Lift-off oversteer isn't hard to deal with when the car has been designed to handle it.
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:34 PM   #111
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Evo reviewer in wet conditions:

"It's softer. You can feel the car is softer. It's just the lack of traction really holding it back, and quite frustrating from a fun point of view."


Autocar reviewer in dry(er) conditions:

"Does it mean it's (VXR) more fun? Well the answer is no. Actually the Focus, I find, is the more entertaining car to drive by a considerable distance."


VXR has the quicker lap time in both reviews. So, of the reviews/opinions given in this thread, I am inclined to believe all of you. Different conditions, different take. Less traction, ST is less fun, more work, softer. More traction, exactly opposite feel.

So will GM give us the VXR/OPC to compete????
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:42 PM   #112
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Hey Scrappy, about the child seat thing... my 2006 WRX did horribly with a britax. I literally could not drive with it behind me. I don't know how much more room is in the newer subarus (though I know it's more) but after a year that all goes away. Front face those things and you are good to go. With any car this size, I'd suggest getting a seat of good quality that takes the least room. Our radians do fine front facing in my car. I used to care about getting a seat that will last my kid to 70lbs, but now I don't care. When they get over a certain age, it's just nicer to put them in a dedicated booster. I can't imagine my just-turned-3 year old who is 41.5 inches tall and size 11.5 wide feet sitting in his radian in a couple years. You said you switch cars frequently... another couple hundred on a different seat is an easier change than $25k+ on the car. Just my two cents. Love reading your posts by the way. I'm really thinking of buying an ST.
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:55 PM   #113
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Rear facing now recommended to go to 2 years old. My daughter is folded like a suitcase, but that's what is recommended for neck and spine development. My '05 FXT was not doable on either side with rear facer. I almost took out the glove box just so I could ride shottie. Ended up just getting rid of it. Have Britax and a Recaro carseats.
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Old 10-15-2012, 08:55 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO
Rear facing now recommended to go to 2 years old. My daughter is folded like a suitcase, but that's what is recommended for neck and spine development. My '05 FXT was not doable on either side with rear facer. I almost took out the glove box just so I could ride shottie. Ended up just getting rid of it. Have Britax and a Recaro carseats.
This right here is the problem.
Two years old in a rear facing child seat is just ASININE!
next year it will be 3 years old

My son did just fine.
Tens of millions of kids did just fine using far "outdated" requirements
Why do people just trust what some Anonymous "they" group and what they recommend.

They build these recommendations from what ?
How do you know these child seat recommendations are not from people who are A) trying to sell you child seats or B) trying to not get sued

My
New born will get 1 year in a rear facing child seat at most the. He faces forward.

Just like my completely healthy and happy 4 year old who is about to go Booster only
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Old 10-15-2012, 09:40 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
My
New born will get 1 year in a rear facing child seat at most the. He faces forward.

Just like my completely healthy and happy 4 year old who is about to go Booster only
Why use a car seat at all? Save the bucks for mods.
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:21 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO
This right here is the problem.
Two years old in a rear facing child seat is just ASININE!
next year it will be 3 years old

My son did just fine.
Tens of millions of kids did just fine using far "outdated" requirements
Why do people just trust what some Anonymous "they" group and what they recommend.

They build these recommendations from what ?
How do you know these child seat recommendations are not from people who are A) trying to sell you child seats or B) trying to not get sued

My
New born will get 1 year in a rear facing child seat at most the. He faces forward.

Just like my completely healthy and happy 4 year old who is about to go Booster only
Scrappy, the evidence is out there. Young kids don't have the neck strength to support their relatively oversized head in a crash. I've seen the aftermath when kids aren't properly secured, and it isn't pretty: the spinal cord doesn't like to be suddenly stretched an extra inch.

http://www.research.chop.edu/program...nar_Slides.pdf

My future kid(s)--#1 is due in February--will most be definitely in rear facing car seats per the recommendations.
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:35 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
This right here is the problem.
Two years old in a rear facing child seat is just ASININE!
next year it will be 3 years old

My son did just fine.
Tens of millions of kids did just fine using far "outdated" requirements
Why do people just trust what some Anonymous "they" group and what they recommend.
All the dead kids don't have advocates like your living kids do, apparently.


3 million Jews survived the holocaust.. I suppose it's alright too.
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:11 AM   #118
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Look I do not doubt there is evidence guys. Do not make me out to be a monster because I choose to think for myself. There was evidence to support putting children in the rear facing child seat for the first year then flipping them too. Is that evidence wrong now. Have they moved the goal posts.

If they recommended that children should wear a ballistic vest in the back of cars and all child seat should come with special airbags that are only good for 1 year (due to liability of course) and should be replaced.

Is that an improvement. Sure, your child will be super safe. Absolutely.

Every child develops differently. Is there a child that needs his neck and spine supported for up to 24 months, sure I bet that child exists. However, if you know how these stupid regulations get passed they take that 1 in 2 million child and apply the laws to all of the children because it is the 'safe' thing to do. That is why it is only a recommendation, not the law.

You have to THINK for yourself and judge your childs development for yourself. Educate yourself, read a book. Talk to a doctor. Talk to two. You can listen to recommendations all you want by some company that is trying to protect against the cataclysm and not take any responsibility yourself. I for one will not.

If my new child is developmentally weak, he may get extra time in a rear facing child seat. He will certainly start in one, and will probably be in one for a year, just like my last child. If he appears to struggle more than my last kid, then he will get extra time, if not, then he will not.

That is MY call.

The recommendations when my last son was born was one year, and they had mountains of data to back that up that after a year you can turn them.

Now, wait, look out, they have sharpened their pencil. They have found a case or two that show a few kids could benefit by more time in the rear facing seat, so since we as consumers are not allowed to think for ourselves, they make a recommendation that ALL kids 'should' be in a rear facing seat for 2 years.

It boggles the mind at how often these 'fact' based recommendations grow. Now kids should be in boosters until they are 8 I think. But that was last year...now it is probably 14.

All I am saying is think for yourself. Assess your child yourself. Be a parent that is actively responsible for your child's safety.

shik, if this is your first, I understand your need to listen to the current regulations, as you have never been through raising a child yet, and you want to do everything in your power to protect your kids. EVERY parent wants this. Well every good parent. I do not blame you for being as protective as you are. Just proves you will probably be a good daddy.



New parents are always the most protective. It is natural to err on the side of caution when you do not know any better.
However, after you have been through the whole song and dance once, you tend to stick with what works. I thought the regulations for child seats were stupid when I was raising my first, but I listened to them. I will do the same for my next.

I will close with this. I have already said assess your child yourself. You know what is right for your child. Do not rely on childproofing to protect your kid any more than you do a child seat. Actively protect your kid. Do not let a cabinet lock, a outlet cover, or even a child seat take the place of good active vigilance and safe driving.

Oh shik, CONGRATS MAN!

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Old 10-15-2012, 11:15 AM   #119
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Don't worry, Scrappy, when the government forces you into buying and operating a $90k self-driving car.. you'll probably be rear-facing (for the safety of all mankind) as well.
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:24 AM   #120
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All I am saying is think for yourself. Assess your child yourself. Be a parent that is actively responsible for your child's safety.
I do exactly that. My daughter just turned two, and I happen to be looking for an extra car seat for my WRX. I was going to get a forward facing seat, because it will only be used once a week and the rear facing seat is a tight fit in a WRX. But I couldn't ignore the numbers. The more research I do, the more I conclude that even a two year old benefits enough from rear-facing to justify the extra cost and minor inconvenience. I have no way to assess the weight of her head and the relative strength of her spine, and in any case, rear facing is safer for anybody, any age.

Quote:
Do not let a cabinet lock, a outlet cover, or even a child seat take the place of good active vigilance and safe driving.
Of course. But isn't a car seat kinda like a seat belt? I try pretty hard to not need my seat belt, and yet...
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:27 AM   #121
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That is your choice. And I respect you for making it.
But it is easy to make numbers look anyway you want them to. To err on the side of safety is not a bad thing if that is your choice.
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:31 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO
That is your choice. And I respect you for making it.
But it is easy to make numbers look anyway you want them to. To err on the side of safety is not a bad thing if that is your choice.
Did you page through that PowerPoint? Some of the injury reductions a nearly an order of magnitude. This isn't some incremental thing.
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:44 AM   #123
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But it is easy to make numbers look anyway you want them to. To err on the side of safety is not a bad thing if that is your choice.
It just makes me curious. There seem to me to be far more upsides to erring on the side of safety than downsides. A lot of your argument seems to amount to "sticking it to the man" and distrusting the research for no other reason, rather than something specific. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. If you can cite numbers that disagree, I'd really like to see them. I prefer to be as educated as possible when I make a decision like this.

CSB: I have a brother-in-law who refuses to wear a seat belt, and he is completely honest if you ask him why -- because the gov't made it illegal. I respect the defiance of authority, but it fascinates me that of all the ways to defy the man, he'd choose seat belts.
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:50 AM   #124
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My buddy works for ford and he inspects all the new cars as they get dropped off, know you cannot test drive one at the dealer ships here for the northshore because they are already bought. He got the chance to drive the new Focus ST. Its heavy, Cool styling ; ), and a nice set of turbo gauges like the old subaru sti option. I raced it with his SRT 4 2005 and the ST got smoked. Long Story short, i still love subarus.
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Old 10-15-2012, 12:11 PM   #125
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No it is some incremental thing actually.

All that data is in percentages. Which can be a great way to make a point. But realistically is not that much of a difference numerically. ON a bar graph, it is all about how close you zoom on the y axis.

If 2% are injured one way and 1.5% are injured another way, that is a 25% reduction, but in reality, it is in the noise of one extreme of the data. Just keeping some perspective here.

Look we are WAAAY OT here, but you as a parent are responsible for what you feel is right. Believe what you want. Do what you want. Being Safer is not a bad thing. I am not saying the data is wrong. You just have to weigh the data against what works for your child and your life.

At some point a rear facing seat is not practical. It is up to you to determine what is right for you. My kid LOVED being able to see the road and what is coming. Just the act of turning him around made him able to take 4 hours trips back home with ease. I could not wait for him to turn 1. WE actually waited until 13 months. He was running around by then.

My 4 year old is currently in a high back booster seat. He 42 inches and 41 lbs. In February when he turns 5 he is getting a plain booster and he will use the shoulder lap/shoulder belts in the car if his chest is appropriately high enough.

I like these studies, as it provides useful information. It allows me to pick what is right for my situation. For instance, belt on neck, BAD. Belt above pelvis on torso, BAD. Those are not refutable. Those are not data driven. Those are FACT. There are no variables I can manipulate to make those suggestions look one way or the other. Those are BAD, and my child will not be subjected to either.

OTOH, If keeping your kids in the rear facing seat until 2 is good, why not 3. I am sure you could show data showing it would be beneficial. In that case, why do they not make all passengers ride in them. It would also be an improvement on safety.

What is enough?
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