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Old 09-25-2012, 05:37 PM   #1
bradg1166
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Default Low DAM please help (log inside)

I'm having knock events and can't figure out why. At first my maf voltage was backing up so my tuner suggested looking for leaks and cleaning the maf. I had just fixed a pre turbo leak a week before and didn't find any post turbo so I cleaned the maf sensor, reset the ecu and everything looked good again on my logs. Shortly after my fuel trims were going way out of wack so I took my car to the shop and another leak was found by a smoke test right where the inlet meets the turbo. There was a small tear but it was not a hole going through the other two layers so the inlet was just not fitting correctly and it was reattached. The car was retested with a smoke test at my shop and no leaks were present. On the way home I took three logs. The first one immediately after leaving the shop looked great. The second one (Datalog 75) was taken 10 minutes later and there is a ton of knock correction. I gave it a quick check and rest the ecu and took data log 77 which seemed ok. By the next day my DAM had fallen to 15 and my fuel trims had gone positive (I'm confused by this because I thought something like a pre turbo leak would cause + fuel trims and then after I fixed the leak they went +). Today I was going out to get a good log and just getting on it a little bit made the DAM drop all the way to 12 which I have never seen on my car so I just turned around to head home. It went back up to 14 and is not at 13. My tuner is away on vacation this week and I'm pretty worried so I was seeing if anyone had any advice or idea of what could be causing this.

List of mods:
amr c70 turbo, dw 750 injectors, walbro 255 fp, grimmspeed ebcs, hks bov, turbo xs fmic, cobb intake, perrin inlet, grimmspeed p&p header with crosspipe, catless 3" tbe, dyno tuned

Logs:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...QTjVCNHc#gid=0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...6V01iYXc#gid=0

Thanks in advance for any input
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Old 09-25-2012, 06:06 PM   #2
Andrewxxcarlson
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Leaky bov?
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Old 09-25-2012, 06:11 PM   #3
bradg1166
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Wouldn't that have shown up when the smoke test was done for boost leaks
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:23 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradg1166 View Post
I'm having knock events and can't figure out why. At first my maf voltage was backing up so my tuner suggested looking for leaks and cleaning the maf. I had just fixed a pre turbo leak a week before and didn't find any post turbo so I cleaned the maf sensor, reset the ecu and everything looked good again on my logs. Shortly after my fuel trims were going way out of wack so I took my car to the shop and another leak was found by a smoke test right where the inlet meets the turbo. There was a small tear but it was not a hole going through the other two layers so the inlet was just not fitting correctly and it was reattached. The car was retested with a smoke test at my shop and no leaks were present. On the way home I took three logs. The first one immediately after leaving the shop looked great. The second one (Datalog 75) was taken 10 minutes later and there is a ton of knock correction. I gave it a quick check and rest the ecu and took data log 77 which seemed ok. By the next day my DAM had fallen to 15 and my fuel trims had gone positive (I'm confused by this because I thought something like a pre turbo leak would cause + fuel trims and then after I fixed the leak they went +). Today I was going out to get a good log and just getting on it a little bit made the DAM drop all the way to 12 which I have never seen on my car so I just turned around to head home. It went back up to 14 and is not at 13. My tuner is away on vacation this week and I'm pretty worried so I was seeing if anyone had any advice or idea of what could be causing this.

List of mods:
amr c70 turbo, dw 750 injectors, walbro 255 fp, grimmspeed ebcs, hks bov, turbo xs fmic, cobb intake, perrin inlet, grimmspeed p&p header with crosspipe, catless 3" tbe, dyno tuned

Logs:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...QTjVCNHc#gid=0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...6V01iYXc#gid=0

Thanks in advance for any input
I would not do any more WOT runs - drive conservatively until you can talk to your tuner. At your level of modifications, you should really have a wideband o2 sensor (with an in-car gauge) so you can monitor fueling. I would definitely consider getting one.

Bill
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Old 09-26-2012, 05:36 PM   #5
bradg1166
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Yeah I have stayed off the throttle as much as possible and I was considering getting a wideband. Will definitely be getting one after this problem is sorted out.... Any idea what it could be?
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:29 AM   #6
Cobb Tuning
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Yeah I have stayed off the throttle as much as possible and I was considering getting a wideband. Will definitely be getting one after this problem is sorted out.... Any idea what it could be?
For now, you can drive conservatively without reflashing any maps or resetting the ECU and see where your A/F Learning 1 long-term fuel trims (A,B,C,D) end up through 1 or 2 tanks of gas. This will potentially tell you if there are any other mechanical fueling-related issues.

I would get with the tuner when they are available - they now how the car was running when they finished the tune and they know exactly how the map is set up.

Bill
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Old 09-27-2012, 06:52 PM   #7
bradg1166
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Ok sounds good... Btw Bill I was wondering if you could explain a couple of the monitors to me. I understand AF correction 1 is short term fuel trims and learning 1 is long term but what is correction 3 and learning a, b, c, d? I couldn't find an explanation to these parameters.

Thanks,
Brad
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Old 09-28-2012, 09:02 AM   #8
Cobb Tuning
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Originally Posted by bradg1166 View Post
Ok sounds good... Btw Bill I was wondering if you could explain a couple of the monitors to me. I understand AF correction 1 is short term fuel trims and learning 1 is long term but what is correction 3 and learning a, b, c, d? I couldn't find an explanation to these parameters.

Thanks,
Brad
Brad,

The A,B,C,D is for A/F Learning 1. When you log "A/F Learning 1", you are logging the currently applied A/F Learning 1, but there are actual 4 separate values that are learned and applied based on distinct airflow ranges. These are the A,B,C,D values, with A being the lowest range and D being the highest.

A/F Correction 3 is the short-term correction to the closed loop fueling target based on feedback from the rear o2 sensor. Usually doesn't have a lot of authority and not something you need to look at.

Bill
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Old 09-28-2012, 07:53 PM   #9
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You still have a leak somewhere.
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Old 09-29-2012, 10:18 PM   #10
bradg1166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning
Brad,

The A,B,C,D is for A/F Learning 1. When you log "A/F Learning 1", you are logging the currently applied A/F Learning 1, but there are actual 4 separate values that are learned and applied based on distinct airflow ranges. These are the A,B,C,D values, with A being the lowest range and D being the highest.

A/F Correction 3 is the short-term correction to the closed loop fueling target based on feedback from the rear o2 sensor. Usually doesn't have a lot of authority and not something you need to look at.

Bill
Thanks Bill
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Old 09-29-2012, 10:22 PM   #11
bradg1166
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Originally Posted by Tripintaz
You still have a leak somewhere.
I had a pressurized smoke test done to check for leaks after my inlet was fixed and there were no leaks
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Old 10-14-2012, 01:57 AM   #12
bradg1166
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My tuner had me pull my plugs and take pictures to see if there was any difference in color. Two of them are definitely done which is easy to see in these pictures, but can anyone tell me why? Before I replace them with new plugs I'd like to figure out what is causing it so the same thing doesn't happen. My tuner told me to check the injectors next, but I honestly don't even know how to check them. Before I start researching/ trying to do that I wanted to see if anyone had any ideas for what could be causing this that I should also maybe look into.

Also the DAM did go back to 16 which I expected with the battery disconnected but unlike the last time it didn't immediately fall to 12 when I started driving. It stayed at 16 for awhile and then dropped to 14 for a little and brought itself back up to 16. Thanks for any advice

http://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2dsl...14bmNCZ2s/edit
http://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2dsl...hTQnhiQUk/edit
http://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2dsl...FfVXJmaHM/edit
http://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2dsl...9OMFNYMFE/edit
http://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2dsl...lidTJtc2c/edit

Last edited by bradg1166; 10-14-2012 at 02:02 AM. Reason: Couldn't get pictures to work so changed them to links
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Old 10-15-2012, 03:26 PM   #13
bradg1166
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Anyone have any ideas?
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Old 10-18-2012, 02:22 AM   #14
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Dam is based on knock detection. If the ecu doesnt like what it is seeing, it will play it safe and pull timing. Something is causing knock, pretty bad too, based on your initial logs up there.

Knock is caused by a few factors such as too much boost (than fuel can compensate for, or too much for the turbo, because its blowing hot air) , too aggressive of ignition timing and generally, lean conditions. These things can only be addressed by your tuner.
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:28 AM   #15
bradg1166
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Originally Posted by mikeydrives1 View Post
Dam is based on knock detection. If the ecu doesnt like what it is seeing, it will play it safe and pull timing. Something is causing knock, pretty bad too, based on your initial logs up there.

Knock is caused by a few factors such as too much boost (than fuel can compensate for, or too much for the turbo, because its blowing hot air) , too aggressive of ignition timing and generally, lean conditions. These things can only be addressed by your tuner.
I appreciate the reply but I have some understanding of DAM and other knock sensors, what I don't understand is why I'm getting it. My tuner made the tune to be reliable so I doubt there is to much boost or timing, however I'm almost positive there is a fueling issue. I wasn't sure if it was a tuning or mechanical problem but I'd say after talking to my tuner and everything else its def a mechanical issue so there is nothing left for my tuner to say/ do until I fix it. As I said in the last post my DAM is back up to 16, and also the FBKC and FKL are now in an ok zone most of the time. So what I'm trying to figure out now is what would make two of my (pretty much new) spark plugs turn black and if its worth paying a shop to pull my injectors and test them or if anyone has any other suggestions.
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Old 10-18-2012, 04:55 AM   #16
mikeydrives1
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Well from my limited tuner experience, the accesstuner Race program ( or any for that matter) lets you tweak the settings for each individual injector. If you have the ability to do so and go in there, checking the calibration on each one, it would be just a good practice to see that all 4 are set to the same setting (i believe latency?) . Again, im a learner and these are parameters i havent yet messed with and im only bringing them to your awareness that they are something that can be messed with.

If its a fueling / physical issue with the car, it could be a bad pump or filter, or even clogged injectors. If crap somehow got loose and sucked up the line (and your filter is that bad), its possible to clog an (or many) injectors and the car to not get proper (and even ) fueling. This would entail swapping out injectors, having them flow tested, replacing the fuel filter and maybe even as far as throwing a new fuel pump in.

As a first step, try a new fuel filter, getting the gas tank low and doing some Seafoam in the manifold and through the fuel system to see if its crap that can be flushed out. It will run like crap while your doing this and throw misfire codes, but once its cleared through the system it may solve the issue. Worth a shot to begin with, and worse comes to worse, you just cleaned your valves and cylinders of carbon buildup.
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:32 AM   #17
bradg1166
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Originally Posted by mikeydrives1 View Post
Well from my limited tuner experience, the accesstuner Race program ( or any for that matter) lets you tweak the settings for each individual injector. If you have the ability to do so and go in there, checking the calibration on each one, it would be just a good practice to see that all 4 are set to the same setting (i believe latency?) . Again, im a learner and these are parameters i havent yet messed with and im only bringing them to your awareness that they are something that can be messed with.

If its a fueling / physical issue with the car, it could be a bad pump or filter, or even clogged injectors. If crap somehow got loose and sucked up the line (and your filter is that bad), its possible to clog an (or many) injectors and the car to not get proper (and even ) fueling. This would entail swapping out injectors, having them flow tested, replacing the fuel filter and maybe even as far as throwing a new fuel pump in.

As a first step, try a new fuel filter, getting the gas tank low and doing some Seafoam in the manifold and through the fuel system to see if its crap that can be flushed out. It will run like crap while your doing this and throw misfire codes, but once its cleared through the system it may solve the issue. Worth a shot to begin with, and worse comes to worse, you just cleaned your valves and cylinders of carbon buildup.
Thanks, I think I am going to go ahead and have my shop check my injectors out. In the 2005 WRX the fuel filter is actually in the tank so it's not really changed like on the other years and I also did recently Seafoam my car. I'm really hoping it is just a problem with the two injectors and I can replace them and be done with it... I'll post an update when I know
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Old 10-19-2012, 01:18 PM   #18
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I would not recommend adjusting the fueling of each individual injector away from factory. This is not the cause of the issue and it would either be a band-aid fix or even worse cause a bigger fueling problem.

If you have 2 plugs fouling out it could be a number of things. Too much fuel, oil getting into the combustion chamber, coil packs not firing the plugs at high load(you would notice a miss however), and maybe a couple others I have not mentioned.

Have you have a compression test and a leak down test performed? Also, does your wideband report any bizarre fluctuations in AFR at WOT?
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:26 PM   #19
bradg1166
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No I haven't and unfortunately I don't have an aftermarket relocated wideband for accurate AFRs
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Old 10-20-2012, 04:14 AM   #20
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No I haven't and unfortunately I don't have an aftermarket relocated wideband for accurate AFRs
This is cheap insurance and good info to have. I would look into getting one
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Old 10-21-2012, 01:07 AM   #21
bradg1166
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I agree but I only have a limited amount of money to spend on my car right. It will def be the next thing on my list after I fix whatever is wrong right now
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Old 10-22-2012, 10:09 AM   #22
Tripintaz
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Man a wideband should have been first on the list of mods.
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