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Old 01-27-2013, 06:35 PM   #1
ammo0000
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Default Learned Ignition Timing Question

Hey all. So I'm neither a novice nor expert at tuning, but I like to think I know enough to get by. So the story is that I was stationed in Utah with high altitude and 91 octane. Then I was transferred to Maryland with low altitude and 93 octane. I was over-boosting because of the lower altitude and I was able to tune that out using the WGDC table. Next I'm trying to increase the timing to make the most out of the 93 octane.

I have a 07 WRX TR with a TXS turboback, Cobb intake with GS intake elbow, GS 3-port EBCS, and an 08 STI TMIC.

The reason I'm posting is because I'm not sure why exactly, when I log after a tune, the Learned Ignition Timing is consistently a +3 to +6 throughout the RPM range. Then if I try and raise the timing in those ranges, I start getting timing pulled in my Fine Learning Knock Correction section of the spreadsheet.

In the areas that the LIT is raised 6*, I would raise it 4* in the table, but the LIT still trys to add 6* on top of that. This is causing me to have too much timing and my IAM drops and I get pulled timing in the FLKC column.

Basically I'm trying to find out why my LIT is always as high as it can go. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks.
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:16 PM   #2
BlazeRex
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What is 'learned ignition timing'? In other words, what is the real name for it on the logger?
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:25 PM   #3
ammo0000
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That's just one of the check boxes when you're choosing what you want to log. Not sure what else to call it since that's exactly what it says in the top of the column.
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Old 01-27-2013, 11:16 PM   #4
BlazeRex
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Ahh, realized you're an '07... Timing sucks on these. Could you post some datalogs?
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:32 AM   #5
idipskoalmint
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Are you logging the amount of advance the ECU is adding?

Post a picture of your KCA Max table with your logs.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:31 AM   #6
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Isn't the Learned Ignition Timing and Fine Learning Knock Correction the two that show what the ECU is adding? For example, when I started off adjusting my timing, it was set at 11.29* on the base timing table for 2.5 Engine Load at 6400 RPMs. When I logged it, it was showing 18* Ignition Total Timing and 7.5* in the Learned Ignition Timing. The Fine Learning Knock Correction was at 0. I'm just using this as one example since I don't know how to post a spreadsheet. After several increases of 1* throughout the powerband, the Learned Ignition Timing dropped to 6 but no lower. The Ignition Total Timing would continue to raise as I increased the Base Timing, until eventually I ran into my IAM dropping and a couple instances of -1.5 of Fine Learning Knock Correction.

As for the KCA Max table, basically everything starting at 1.40 Engine Load and up is between 4.92 and 5.27.
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:16 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ammo0000
Isn't the Learned Ignition Timing and Fine Learning Knock Correction the two that show what the ECU is adding? For example, when I started off adjusting my timing, it was set at 11.29* on the base timing table for 2.5 Engine Load at 6400 RPMs. When I logged it, it was showing 18* Ignition Total Timing and 7.5* in the Learned Ignition Timing. The Fine Learning Knock Correction was at 0. I'm just using this as one example since I don't know how to post a spreadsheet. After several increases of 1* throughout the powerband, the Learned Ignition Timing dropped to 6 but no lower. The Ignition Total Timing would continue to raise as I increased the Base Timing, until eventually I ran into my IAM dropping and a couple instances of -1.5 of Fine Learning Knock Correction.

As for the KCA Max table, basically everything starting at 1.40 Engine Load and up is between 4.92 and 5.27.
Upload the log to Google Docs and set to public. Upload a screenshot to any picture site (e.g., Tinypic) and paste the forum code.

So KCA Max @ 6400/2.5 is lower than the 7.5 you see in your log?

Honestly, I never bother logging Base Timing / Learned Timing. All I really care about is Ignition Total Timing. Then again, I run a flat 8 KCA Max table.

Last edited by idipskoalmint; 01-28-2013 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:47 PM   #8
ammo0000
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So after screwing around with it all day I finally figured it out. In RomRaider if you're at the Base Timing table, if you click 'View', then 'Table Properties', it breaks down exactly what is happening to get the Ignition Total Timing. Here's what it says, "This is the base level of timing. Total timing = base timing + knock correction advance + other timing compensations. Knock correction advance = (knock correction advance max map value * current advance multiplier) + feedback knock correction + fine knock correction."

So basically the Knock Correction Advance Max table(multiplied by the IAM) will always be added to the Base Timing table. I just thought that the KCA Max table was used for fine learning, not for rough corrections for when the IAM drops.

Thanks anyway for the help guys.
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:53 PM   #9
BlazeRex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ammo0000 View Post
So after screwing around with it all day I finally figured it out. In RomRaider if you're at the Base Timing table, if you click 'View', then 'Table Properties', it breaks down exactly what is happening to get the Ignition Total Timing. Here's what it says, "This is the base level of timing. Total timing = base timing + knock correction advance + other timing compensations. Knock correction advance = (knock correction advance max map value * current advance multiplier) + feedback knock correction + fine knock correction."

So basically the Knock Correction Advance Max table(multiplied by the IAM) will always be added to the Base Timing table. I just thought that the KCA Max table was used for fine learning, not for rough corrections for when the IAM drops.

Thanks anyway for the help guys.
Ohh, That's all you were asking? Look up subaru's knock stategy explained
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:48 PM   #10
idipskoalmint
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ammo0000
So after screwing around with it all day I finally figured it out. In RomRaider if you're at the Base Timing table, if you click 'View', then 'Table Properties', it breaks down exactly what is happening to get the Ignition Total Timing. Here's what it says, "This is the base level of timing. Total timing = base timing + knock correction advance + other timing compensations. Knock correction advance = (knock correction advance max map value * current advance multiplier) + feedback knock correction + fine knock correction."

So basically the Knock Correction Advance Max table(multiplied by the IAM) will always be added to the Base Timing table. I just thought that the KCA Max table was used for fine learning, not for rough corrections for when the IAM drops.

Thanks anyway for the help guys.
Like I mentioned in my last post, I wouldn't bother logging either timing parameter separate; Ignition Total Timing is what you're concerned with. Adding Base / Learned to the parameter list is just wasted bandwidth, unless you're looking for an issue specific to your compensation tables (since that's the only variable you wouldn't know from IAM / Load / RPM / FBKC / FLKC being logged in accordance, which typically always is).
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