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Old 08-10-2016, 12:06 PM   #1
dimwittedmoose
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Default Mystery Gaskets n the FelPro Head Gasket repair set HELP!!

I am venturing into my first tear down of a Subaru engine(EJ 25 from an '02 Outback 5 speed) w/179k on it and the head gaskets appear to be OEM's that are leaking externally, mostly on the driver's side. Certainly could have been caused by the engine ground issues others have mentioned in other forum topics. The goals is to fix the head gaskets and fix multiple oil leaks. Among other concerns, I opened up the Felpro gasket set for this engine (HS 26170PT-1) and have figured out pretty much what gaskets go where with the following exceptions;
1. The three tiny black o-rings which are listed on the outside of the box, but no clue as to where they go. Smaller than a dime and very thin. I have accounted for the 2 pr of 4 gaskets for the fuel injectors, the "water supply tubes", and most of the other stuff.
2. There are several "throttle body" gaskets listed but I must assume that only 1 of them is needed when I put the intake manifold and throttle body assembly back on. The three in question are all paper type gaskets, but there's one gasket that has a metal frame and some black flexible coating molded to the frame and I have no clue where it might go. It's circular and about 2 1/2" in diameter with a couple of strange appendages externally. There is a "4-1" stamped on one of the tangs. I haven't disassembled the intake structure yet , so maybe it will all be obvious when I get there. The kit had no internal sheet of instructions and this being my first time through a Subie engine, experience is not on my side. Youtube hasn't been much help either.
3. Still not sure why Felpro is putting a 4 oz. tube of RTV sealant in the kit when the repair manuals say to use anaerobic sealer between the metal to metal surfaces such as the oil pump cover, oil separator cover and the camshaft frames that bolt down on top of the cylinder heads.


I'd appreciate any guidance so I don't have any "do-overs" once I get the motor back in the car.

TIA

DM&FS
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Old 08-10-2016, 12:47 PM   #2
GEE-OTTO
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I wouldn't have used the FELPRO Head gaskets as teh revised version still is bad Picture of the odd gasket?
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Old 08-10-2016, 12:54 PM   #3
Patrick Olsen
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Looking at the parts list here - http://www.felpro-only.com/break_roo...d=1505#pid1505 - and then looking up the 3 TB gaskets listed, you should need the 61360 part. Google for Felpro 61360 and you'll see which one that is.

It would appear that head gasket set is designed to cover a number of years, hence the 3 different TB gaskets. The metal TB gasket (61492) is probably for the later engines that have a plastic intake manifold. Rockauto.com shows 61492 being for 2004 cars only.

As for the tiny O-rings, again looking at the above parts list, those would appear to be the fuel pipe o-rings (so where the hard fuel lines plug into the fuel rails).

Not sure which "repair manuals" you're referring to, but Subaru's FSM specifies RTV for some locations and anaerobic sealant for others. From my experience, the only place I had to use anaerobic sealant was between the block halves (which you shouldn't have to worry about). The remaining examples you listed are RTV. Check here - http://jdmfsm.info/Auto/Japan/Subaru/Legacy%20Outback/ - to find the FSM. (Assuming that site is still up; it's blocked here at work so I can't see if it is or not.)
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Old 08-10-2016, 12:56 PM   #4
dimwittedmoose
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I'm not allowed to do attachments

Last edited by dimwittedmoose; 08-10-2016 at 01:31 PM.
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Old 08-10-2016, 12:58 PM   #5
H_wells3000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GEE-OTTO View Post
I wouldn't have used the FELPRO Head gaskets as teh revised version still is bad Picture of the odd gasket?
I thought the fel pro looked pretty good.

The mls one with the blue stuff on the outside?

Been working for me.

Don't sweat that stuff, just take it apart and go from there. If your motor is sohc it's a cakewalk. Dohc is more involved because you gotta get the cams out of the way to get to the headbolts.

You dont have to touch the oil pump

Remove manifolds, crank pulley and t belt stuff, water lines, valve covers, leave cams in place and just unbolt the heads with all that stuff on there.

Resurface if necessary, machine shop or blocksand. Clean it up. Lay the new headgasket, I use permatex high tac (gooey sealant stuff) just brushed on both sides.

Old wise man showed me that and for the few headgaskets I've done it's been great.

Last edited by H_wells3000; 08-10-2016 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 08-10-2016, 01:25 PM   #6
dimwittedmoose
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Yes, my kit has the blue head gaskets. I'm re-using the OEM Subie head bolts and using the toque sequence from the Mike Bauer Youtube video(Arizona guy) that is specifically designed for the re use of the old OEM bolts.

With regards to the RTV usage, I don't see how RTV can prperly seal if it NEEDS air to set up. Seems to me that uncured RTV on the metal to metal surfaces would invite leaks. The Fuji-bond from the factory appeared to be on all of those surfaces I plan on coating with the red Anaerobic stuff from Loc-Tite. It's also spozed to be an anaerobic sealant.....$30 a tube to boot......

I appreciate all the quick responses and now headed off to the shop. We'll see what happens in the next few days.......

DM&FS
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Old 08-11-2016, 08:47 AM   #7
CrazMAd
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Anaerobic or RTV. Doesn't make much difference in the long run. Personally, I use anaerobic on the oil pump and separator cover (as long as it's been updated to the new stamped design).

Also, I'm not entirely familiar with felpro head gaskets, but if they are multi layer no sealant should be applied. They require a very specific finish to the head and block and must be completely dry and degreased. I've seen multiple premature failures in the 2-3 year mark after they've been replaced and coated in copper coat or hi-tac (both seem to be becoming more prevalent).

I don't know what else you have in your kit, but depending on the year of your engine it may be worth pulling the oil pump if you have the seal. It was common in the earlier sohc 2.5 to see the Philips head screws in the back of the pump start to loosen up and back out. Subaru supposedly fixed it, but I've seen them slacken up on engines all the way through 2006. Cheap insurance as far as I'm concerned. Good luck
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Old 08-11-2016, 10:20 AM   #8
Patrick Olsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dimwittedmoose View Post
Yes, my kit has the blue head gaskets. I'm re-using the OEM Subie head bolts and using the toque sequence from the Mike Bauer Youtube video(Arizona guy) that is specifically designed for the re use of the old OEM bolts.
Specifically designed by whom? Some dude on YT, or Subaru?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dimwittedmoose View Post
With regards to the RTV usage, I don't see how RTV can prperly seal if it NEEDS air to set up. Seems to me that uncured RTV on the metal to metal surfaces would invite leaks.
So follow the instructions for how to apply the RTV and how to assemble the parts. There are millions and millions and millions of cars on the road with RTV sealing metal-to-metal surfaces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dimwittedmoose View Post
The Fuji-bond from the factory appeared to be on all of those surfaces I plan on coating with the red Anaerobic stuff from Loc-Tite.
The Fujibond from the factory is not all anaerobic. I don't remember the number for the anaerobic Fujibond, but the non-anaerobic Fujibond is 1280B; 1280B is what the FSM tells you to use for the vast majority of the sealing. I don't have a FSM here in front of me, but as I said before, the only place I remember the FSM saying to use the anaerobic Fujibond was between the block halves. Permatex Ultra Grey RTV is equivalent to the 1280B stuff, and sure as hell isn't $30 per tube.
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Old 08-11-2016, 03:07 PM   #9
dimwittedmoose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazMAd View Post
Anaerobic or RTV. Doesn't make much difference in the long run. Personally, I use anaerobic on the oil pump and separator cover (as long as it's been updated to the new stamped design).

Also, I'm not entirely familiar with felpro head gaskets, but if they are multi layer no sealant should be applied. They require a very specific finish to the head and block and must be completely dry and degreased. I've seen multiple premature failures in the 2-3 year mark after they've been replaced and coated in copper coat or hi-tac (both seem to be becoming more prevalent).

I don't know what else you have in your kit, but depending on the year of your engine it may be worth pulling the oil pump if you have the seal. It was common in the earlier sohc 2.5 to see the Philips head screws in the back of the pump start to loosen up and back out. Subaru supposedly fixed it, but I've seen them slacken up on engines all the way through 2006. Cheap insurance as far as I'm concerned. Good luck


Thanks. I did pull the oil pump as I suspected the O ring to be less than perfect after 170k. Screws were tight and the pump rotors etc. within tolerances Used the blue loctite on the screw threads and proper torque specs to boot. The mechs at our local Subie dealer said that's what they use(Loctite red anaerobic), so that's what I decided on.

The performance shop here locally did the valve and resurfacing work on the heads and the flywheel ($580 worth) and the finish on the heads is awesome. I DON"T wanna do this job again.......

DM&FS
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Old 08-11-2016, 03:18 PM   #10
dimwittedmoose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen View Post
Specifically designed by whom? Some dude on YT, or Subaru?

His torque routine takes in to consideration that the OEM used head bolts don't need the "stretch" phase of the new head bolt torqueing sequence. Made sense to me.


So follow the instructions for how to apply the RTV and how to assemble the parts. There are millions and millions and millions of cars on the road with RTV sealing metal-to-metal surfaces.

Instructions??? I wish!!! No paper inside the kit or on the outside of the box.....hence all these questions. Felpro couldn't answer my questions either. Sounded like their call line was a 3rd party operation.


The Fujibond from the factory is not all anaerobic. I don't remember the number for the anaerobic Fujibond, but the non-anaerobic Fujibond is 1280B; 1280B is what the FSM tells you to use for the vast majority of the sealing. I don't have a FSM here in front of me, but as I said before, the only place I remember the FSM saying to use the anaerobic Fujibond was between the block halves. Permatex Ultra Grey RTV is equivalent to the 1280B stuff, and sure as hell isn't $30 per tube.

Being the dummy shade tree mechanic like I am, I always wondered how anaerobic sealant didn't set up inside the tube since there's no air inside the tube from the factory. IT appears that someone prior to me used that Permatex ultra gray to seal the oil pan with no gasket in there. It was leaking and had been for some time.

Thanks again for all the feedback.

DM&FS
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Old 08-15-2016, 04:24 AM   #11
3repete
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oops, shouldn't hav clicked here.
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