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Old 02-07-2013, 02:35 AM   #26
cosseywrx
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Between .0031 and .0035
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:09 AM   #27
aboothman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Scream View Post
^^ This

If JE would make their shelf pistons .001" larger it would be so much nicer to do drop in upgrades
Only bumping this cause of Manley's recent 99.55mm offerings As discussed here:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2468791

and listed here on page 118
http://www.manleyperformance.com/dl/2013/pistons.pdf
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:02 PM   #28
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^^ I like that option
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:56 PM   #29
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So can you buy the 99.55mm Manley piston and hone the bore to suit without using the boring bar first?
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Old 02-24-2013, 03:01 PM   #30
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What about the sleeves being marked A or B from OEM?

those letters represent different sized pistons correct?

Ots pistons are supposed to all be the same size out of the box right?

So I can't see how people think drop ins are close enough.

I know guys that buy engine components and assemble short blocks without taking a single measurement.

Its been explained to me that its close enough...

I'm like...WHAT?!?

Dood even questioned my machine shop as to whether or not they are just taking my money and not doing anything but assembling the engines...even though I have video of my block on a line bore machine and the block under tq plates getting the sleeves honed.

His ignorance is followed up with a stone ball hone on the other end of an electric drill for the sleeves to get hatching back. I'm like Dood...I've done that and burnt rings up stupid fast. Ball hone is too aggressive.

What guys will do to make money on the backs of people who don't know better.

Sorry, I have a conscience. And I don't think my machinist is ripping me off.

PS my engine is still running..

Last edited by maxpowr; 02-24-2013 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 02-24-2013, 03:49 PM   #31
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I have experienced the same thing. What can I say...stupid people do amazing things! I offered to loan a friend thousands of dollars of tools to take his time and build an engine right with a solid blueprint. He just threw it together and wonders why it sounds like it will come apart any minute. Didn't even mic the crank and verify the bearing tolerances!!
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:50 PM   #32
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Karmas a bitch. I just try to do right by people.

Rookies beware. Just cause its put together doesn't make it right.
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Old 02-24-2013, 07:23 PM   #33
cosseywrx
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One reason why you ask for lots of pics or videos. And you recieve a build sheet with all specs.
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:12 PM   #34
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i agree.
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Old 02-24-2013, 09:57 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxpowr View Post
What about the sleeves being marked A or B from OEM?

those letters represent different sized pistons correct?

Ots pistons are supposed to all be the same size out of the box right?

So I can't see how people think drop ins are close enough.
The difference between a A and B piston on a EJ205 is only .0007" max. So your PTW clearances might not all be the exact same but they could be well within a acceptable range. This is why some people get lucky honing and throwing in some Drop-ins and others have issues. Unless your measuring with quality tools your 100% rolling the dice. Thats why I'm I got my tools for X-mas
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Old 02-24-2013, 11:40 PM   #36
aboothman
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That's also why it is AWESOME that Manley is putting forth the effort to ensure that drop ins have a better option than is currently available
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:09 AM   #37
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I wonder why Subaru even bothered making them different if its only .0007...you certain about that?

How bout on a 255/257?
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:34 AM   #38
aboothman
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The total tolerance for OEM pistons is .0004" - .0012" MAX. That is .0008" FYI. The difference between the smallest A and largest B pistons is .0008" Not an official mathematician, but I am pretty sure that would leave a .0000" PTW if a large B piston was used in a small A hole. The FSM I have says A is big and B is small, but I am pretty sure it is all ****ed off.








Giggity
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:36 AM   #39
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^+2 Its crazy how tight the factory PTW clearance is.
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:32 AM   #40
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If I'm not mistaken my stock bore cosworths were set at .0015. I'll check the blueprint.
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Old 02-25-2013, 07:48 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxpowr View Post
His ignorance is followed up with a stone ball hone on the other end of an electric drill for the sleeves to get hatching back. I'm like Dood...I've done that and burnt rings up stupid fast. Ball hone is too aggressive.

What guys will do to make money on the backs of people who don't know better.

Sorry, I have a conscience. And I don't think my machinist is ripping me off.

PS my engine is still running..
I've used a ball hone on many engines without issue. You can order different grit. Not all work will come back perfect from the machine shop. An block may come back with .0025 when I asked for .003. A cylinder or two may be .0025 at the top and .003 at the bottom. Most people will just throw it together like that. And since the top of the piston to the bottom can vary by .010 or more (top being smaller) it would run without issue. I personally will hone the cylinder back as close as possible to true with a normal hone on a drill. Then hit it about 30 or so strokes at low speed with a ball hone to get the crosshatch in. Some people with go back over with a platue hone to smooth the ridges. I personally only prefer a ball hone with a grit of around 240-260. I've used a 220 grit before without issue. Motor running at 30( miles now and doesn't burn a drop of oil.

I find your statement kinda harsh with regards to ball honing.
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:37 AM   #42
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I guess if you have tools to measure what you are doing with a ball hone its not so hap-hazard.

I'm more referring to guys who place block on ground and reem the sleeve like a whore and assemble.

I also feel that a drill press type of hone with cutting teeth can probably achieve a more uniform measurement.

I'm into do it yourself, trust me, but some things should be done with proper tools and measurements.

I am actually offended by the term close enough.
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Old 02-25-2013, 09:00 AM   #43
maxpowr
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If I pay a machine shop to cut my block to certain spec shouldn't I expect to receive it like that? I don't want to come off cocky but this issue has been bothering me for years.

I'm not ignorant to how small .000x is...

Maybe I am being hyper critical.

Just burns me up to think I may be wasting thousands of dollars at a machine shop and I may have shot myself in the foot on the quest for exact tolerances...while people I know are spending little to nothing and making thousands.

I've actually lost a close friendship of many years over this issue.

I would admit I was wrong if I really believed you can assemble a used Subaru engine with off the shelf parts.

Again...I'm not here to say I'm right...there's always more than one way to skin a cat. I just look at it like painting a wall with a fine brush and roller compared to throwing the gallon of paint at the wall.
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:54 AM   #44
aboothman
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Most decent shops will tell you that you need to double check their work when you take delivery or shortly after.
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:58 AM   #45
Paul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxpowr View Post
If I'm not mistaken my stock bore cosworths were set at .0015. I'll check the blueprint.
That makes sense since they are 4032 and can be ran tighter... but that does seem pretty tight. IIRC Mahle 4032s recommend .002-.003 for PTW



Quote:
Originally Posted by maxpowr View Post
If I pay a machine shop to cut my block to certain spec shouldn't I expect to receive it like that? I don't want to come off cocky but this issue has been bothering me for years.

I'm not ignorant to how small .000x is...

Maybe I am being hyper critical.
Thats why theres tolerances. Its impossible to get exact spec across the board when your talking about ten thousands of a inch. Even if you could its not like everything would stay the exact same at different temps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxpowr View Post
I would admit I was wrong if I really believed you can assemble a used Subaru engine with off the shelf parts.
It is very possible to do that as long as everything checks out and theres nothing wrong with doing it like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aboothman View Post
Most decent shops will tell you that you need to double check their work when you take delivery or shortly after.
Thats crazy!! Ive never had a shop say that but I wouldnt be upset cause Id be doing that anyway

Last edited by Paul; 02-25-2013 at 12:10 PM.
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:14 PM   #46
maxpowr
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Hmmm...Im gonna feel differently at the machine shop today.
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:42 PM   #47
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Ahh so thats why my old motor bit the ****. Improper everything and a machine shop employee collecting cash on the side doing half assed to nothing work.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:13 AM   #48
aboothman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul View Post

Thats crazy!! Ive never had a shop say that but I wouldnt be upset cause Id be doing that anyway
Well if you think about it, you are saving everyone time if there is an issue.
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