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Old 04-07-2015, 11:37 AM   #1
lgt2000
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Default Unpopular opinion on BRZ STI

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Old 04-07-2015, 01:57 PM   #2
OrbitalEllipses
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It wouldn't feature a watered down engine - it flat out wouldn't feature that engine or any architecture reminiscent of it as Subaru is has moved away from the EJ. I'm going to agree with factory performance > aftermarket tuning. Starting with a higher baseline is always better. You're getting stronger components across the board in places they'd likely need to replaced eventually when aftermarket tuning from a 'base' model.

As an owner I disagree with the pricepoint - it's about $2K more than it should be and around $5K more than it needs to dominate the market.
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Old 04-07-2015, 05:21 PM   #3
chanomatik
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I second the emotion that the BRZ is overpriced. Is it HUGELY overpriced? No. I did buy one (a Limited model with a bunch of fixins too). I think there should have been more of a base model without the Nav and HID headlights and some other features to keep the pricepoint down to about $23k (or much less, honestly).

Right now the BRZ Premium starts at $25,695. At this point no one should be paying MSRP, but still, that's a price set by Subaru and it's relatively high. $600 more will get you a base 2015 WRX.

I BRZ tS stateside would cost a bit much. It should come in under $30k if the power stays the same. Or if they're going to keep it truly sporty, then add the Brembos and suspension upgrades, but forego leather seats, NAV and HID headlights. The packages need to be switched up a little, or there needs to be an FB16DIT, FA22 or FB25 under there. All that is $$$, so it ain't happenin'.
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Old 04-07-2015, 08:32 PM   #4
CopperTopNWOR
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I think the flaw in the logic regarding pricing is that everyone thinks of the FRS and BRZ as separate models particularly when comparing them to the Miata.

FRS starts at $24,900 while the top BRZ ends at $29,950. True the release series FRS is at $31,000. The Miata runs from $23,970 to $33,410. So same price range as the Miata with a slightly more powerful motor and similar power to weight ratio.

I just get annoyed with the BRZ is overpriced drumbeat. The price is the same range as the Miata while you get a larger vehicle with good dynamics. The only real knock on the BRZ at that price point is that it isn't a convertible.

Now the WRX, GTI, Fiesta and Focus ST's are all great vehicles at relatively close price points. But, they are fundamentally different vehicles than the BRZ or Miata. Monthly sales numbers for the twins aren't that bad in reality. They just haven't stabilized yet. Do they need to offer more options, possibly. But, the monthly numbers with the few version they have are about on par with the NC Miata currently which has what 4 different versions. Combined the twins are selling as many as the current BMW 1/2 Series.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2015/04...-ytd.html#more

I think we would all like more power, but for a niche product getting anything more than a re-tuned existing motor is unlikely. I would personally rather keep the NA motor over one of the Turbo models.
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Old 04-07-2015, 10:23 PM   #5
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I think the BRZ is the next generation of drift cars. I personally enjoy all-wheel drive, but I think it would be fun to own a drift car.
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Old 04-07-2015, 10:30 PM   #6
Kostamojen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chanomatik View Post
I second the emotion that the BRZ is overpriced. Is it HUGELY overpriced? No. I did buy one (a Limited model with a bunch of fixins too). I think there should have been more of a base model without the Nav and HID headlights and some other features to keep the pricepoint down to about $23k (or much less, honestly).

Right now the BRZ Premium starts at $25,695. At this point no one should be paying MSRP, but still, that's a price set by Subaru and it's relatively high. $600 more will get you a base 2015 WRX.

I BRZ tS stateside would cost a bit much. It should come in under $30k if the power stays the same. Or if they're going to keep it truly sporty, then add the Brembos and suspension upgrades, but forego leather seats, NAV and HID headlights. The packages need to be switched up a little, or there needs to be an FB16DIT, FA22 or FB25 under there. All that is $$$, so it ain't happenin'.
They should drop the price $1,500 or so for the twins due to the current value of the Yen. They would still make a ton of money selling them in the states.

They really should have more factory options for this car... Even the Miata has more options than the twins do, at least the Scion has some optional springs/swaybars you can order with the car.


Engine wise, what I would do is pretty simple... Have a "performance" variant that includes the TRD style intake stock, and redesign the snorkel for better airflow. Then take the exhaust system and design it with larger runners and better piping sizes throughout (while keeping the cats because well, emissions) and include something like the STI axle back. Also include the factory oil cooler. Finally, having it tuned more aggressively from the factory (maybe SI-drive?)

It is VERY easy to get this motor up to 220-230hp and clean up the power delivery/torque curve. They could just do this from the factory as a performance option, and add another $2500 or whatever to the cost and it would be worth it, don't even have to touch the engine internals.
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Old 04-08-2015, 01:53 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CopperTopNWOR View Post
I think the flaw in the logic regarding pricing is that everyone thinks of the FRS and BRZ as separate models particularly when comparing them to the Miata.

FRS starts at $24,900 while the top BRZ ends at $29,950. True the release series FRS is at $31,000. The Miata runs from $23,970 to $33,410. So same price range as the Miata with a slightly more powerful motor and similar power to weight ratio.

I just get annoyed with the BRZ is overpriced drumbeat. The price is the same range as the Miata while you get a larger vehicle with good dynamics. The only real knock on the BRZ at that price point is that it isn't a convertible.

Now the WRX, GTI, Fiesta and Focus ST's are all great vehicles at relatively close price points. But, they are fundamentally different vehicles than the BRZ or Miata. Monthly sales numbers for the twins aren't that bad in reality. They just haven't stabilized yet. Do they need to offer more options, possibly. But, the monthly numbers with the few version they have are about on par with the NC Miata currently which has what 4 different versions. Combined the twins are selling as many as the current BMW 1/2 Series.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2015/04...-ytd.html#more

I think we would all like more power, but for a niche product getting anything more than a re-tuned existing motor is unlikely. I would personally rather keep the NA motor over one of the Turbo models.

Agreed on all fronts. I also think the comment "for a little more you can get a WRX" is pointless. I got rid of my WRX for my BRZ, they are very different things.
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Old 04-09-2015, 10:46 AM   #8
OrbitalEllipses
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Quote:
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Agreed on all fronts. I also think the comment "for a little more you can get a WRX" is pointless. I got rid of my WRX for my BRZ, they are very different things.
This I will 100% agree with; totally different cars. Now, as to whether or not I move back into a 4/5 door AWD vehicle? Possibly, but it won't be a Subaru.
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Old 04-09-2015, 11:43 AM   #9
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I brought up the WRX has a common gripe among would-be BRZ purchasers. I also contend that they're completely different vehicles, but the BRZ isn't an advertised vehicle from Subaru, AND, because it's a Subaru, it has to "compete" with the young guy that walks in and sees it who just wants a good-looking, yet reliable, sporty car.

There are others who have traded their BRZ in for an STI or WRX. One thing that attracts a lot of BRZ owners is the handling characteristics. The 2015 WRX/STI sorted out a lot of their former issues, so it makes their handling characteristics a lot more appealing. I've considered them, but overall reviews state the BRZ is still more fun to drive. Plus it just looks a billionty times better than the current WRX/STI.
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Old 04-09-2015, 12:03 PM   #10
OrbitalEllipses
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chanomatik View Post
Plus it just looks a billionty times better than the current WRX/STI.
I'll be honest, this is the biggest reason for me. The STI is too much money for what it is these days with that old EJ lump and the WRX is excellent value, but good lord is it ugly.
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Old 04-09-2015, 12:14 PM   #11
chanomatik
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Which is funny, because the Levorg basically looks the same and IS a WRX, but it's so much more focus-built and suited to its proportions that I'd have a REALLY hard time not purchasing that if it were stateside.

The WRX/STI however, do not get my approval. Proportions are all wrong for what they are, designs are just a hair over half-assed, WRX engine doesn't rev high enough and STI engine is old news.

On Topic: A new BRZ tS stateside would have to come wrapped in a new body style that looked more aggressive, along with the added performance bits, for me to consider it. And even then... I'd probably pass. My current BRZ will most likely be my last sports car purchase. Next will be something more practical and conducive to my life goals.
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Old 04-09-2015, 02:22 PM   #12
OrbitalEllipses
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It won't get a new body style, 100% guarantee it.
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Old 04-09-2015, 04:21 PM   #13
chanomatik
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Agreed. Milk the current body style, then when Toyota is ready for a refresh, cut out the BRZ. It'll free up production capacity for other profitable ventures and the BRZ can go down in history as, "Lies! Subaru did NOT make a RWD sports car, Dad!"
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Old 04-10-2015, 02:31 AM   #14
Kostamojen
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I wouldn't be surprised if the tS came with a "refreshed" body style though I.E. Bumpers, lights maybe, etc.
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Old 04-10-2015, 10:42 AM   #15
OrbitalEllipses
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I wouldn't be surprised if the tS came with a "refreshed" body style though I.E. Bumpers, lights maybe, etc.
Right. The panels and such that come off and aren't part of the unibody can certainly be altered. Pumped out rear fenders and rockers like the concept isn't a possibility.
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Old 04-11-2015, 12:29 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CopperTopNWOR View Post
I think the flaw in the logic regarding pricing is that everyone thinks of the FRS and BRZ as separate models particularly when comparing them to the Miata.

FRS starts at $24,900 while the top BRZ ends at $29,950. True the release series FRS is at $31,000. The Miata runs from $23,970 to $33,410. So same price range as the Miata with a slightly more powerful motor and similar power to weight ratio.

I just get annoyed with the BRZ is overpriced drumbeat. The price is the same range as the Miata while you get a larger vehicle with good dynamics. The only real knock on the BRZ at that price point is that it isn't a convertible.

Now the WRX, GTI, Fiesta and Focus ST's are all great vehicles at relatively close price points. But, they are fundamentally different vehicles than the BRZ or Miata. Monthly sales numbers for the twins aren't that bad in reality. They just haven't stabilized yet. Do they need to offer more options, possibly. But, the monthly numbers with the few version they have are about on par with the NC Miata currently which has what 4 different versions. Combined the twins are selling as many as the current BMW 1/2 Series.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2015/04...-ytd.html#more

I think we would all like more power, but for a niche product getting anything more than a re-tuned existing motor is unlikely. I would personally rather keep the NA motor over one of the Turbo models.
Thank you.

People keep comparing a unique RWD chassis to hopped up economy car counterparts (not saying the BRZ isn't budget, just that it doesn't have a cheap chassis counterpart to soak up sales volume and development costs) and then bitching about the price. Newsflash RWD and low volume cost money.

And beyond all that, is it really overpriced? It's been proven time and time again that at the stock power level the car is one set of tires (a wear item ermahgerd) from pumping out better lap times on any given road course.

Methinks people who complain about the power/price don't know how to drive in anything other than a straight line.
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