Chris Harris: BMW M 135i vs Audi RS3

[joewrx628]

Originally Posted by REX8

Sidebar Convo:

Are the DPs really worth it? Something tells me I'd be contented with 370-380 HP vs. something closer to 400.

Expensive? Easy to install?

I was thinking Koni yellows, M3 front bar, BMW performance springs, camber plates, rear wheels all around on 245s, JB4 and call it a day.

Love your color, but I really dig white on that car for some reason.

Its worth it if your seriously into modding. My 135i has a jb4 BMS Dual cone intake and a muffler delete and thats it. I can run 50/50 e85 and it pulls so hard its scary.

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[REX8]

Originally Posted by joewrx628

Its worth it if your seriously into modding. My 135i has a jb4 BMS Dual cone intake and a muffler delete and thats it. I can run 50/50 e85 and it pulls so hard its scary.

I don't think you have to be seriously into modding to swap a couple down pipes.

Or are you saying that as in, it's not worth it from a power perspective, but only worth it if you enjoy the wrenching?

What are the DCIs worth, power wise?

[Brahmzy]

Originally Posted by joewrx628

Its worth it if your seriously into modding. My 135i has a jb4 BMS Dual cone intake and a muffler delete and thats it. I can run 50/50 e85 and it pulls so hard its scary.

Add some down pipes and be prepared to be even more scared.

I've got the BMS DCIs too - cant say I noticed a big diff with 'em, since I did the JB4 at the same time.

[hkerekes]

Originally Posted by REX8

Ugg, I want to love them. I just can't. Tell them to make it 3/4 size, then they can have my money.

When you drive it nothing else matters. The size, the looks, the color, the interior, they all mean nothing when 7500 lines up with the tach needle.

Its big but you dont really feel it, it just dives into the corners and goes where you want it. There is really no need to mod it either, its fast, turns well, brakes well, and makes noise. On paper it shouldnt work but in reality Ford designed a ****ing wild ass machine that puts a grin on your face.

[hkerekes]

Originally Posted by gpshumway

Fixored...

I didn't realize the Boss was quite that porky. Wow. It's 50lb heavier than a GT. Bigger brakes?

Larger sway bars, wider rims and tires, bigger brakes, different differential, larger radiator, oil cooler, more oil capacity, likely heavier internals. Some of those options can be fitted on a GT so its not quite apples to apples. I assume they listed the weight of a base model GT.

There is some weight savings though, no sound deadening, power seats, spare tire, auto climate control, amps, and random other ****.

[Rampager2000]

Oh yeah, if I had that much money to spend I'd go Boss Mustang all day over anything else in the price range.

[REX8]

Originally Posted by hkerekes

When you drive it nothing else matters. The size, the looks, the color, the interior, they all mean nothing when 7500 lines up with the tach needle.

Its big but you dont really feel it, it just dives into the corners and goes where you want it. There is really no need to mod it either, its fast, turns well, brakes well, and makes noise. On paper it shouldnt work but in reality Ford designed a ****ing wild ass machine that puts a grin on your face.

Drove a student's new GT at a track day this past spring. It's areally good chassis out of teh box, certainly better than anything else I've experienced that they've put out. But there's a difference between highly capable, predictable, and fast ( what an engine), and what puts a smile on my face (on a track at least).

An S2000 is comparatively much more fun to drive at 10/10th. Not that the 135 would necessarily be any better than a GT (in fact, it's worse out of the box)...however, my experience with a stock one tells me that, once buttoned down, it's going to feel a good bit more tidy than the GT did. It's just a much bigger car.

There is no reason for it (or many other cars these days) to be so damn big-bodied.

[Calamity Jesus]

Drive a 302, Rex. I've driven a GT and a 302.. it's like comparing the suspension/manners of a 2.5i to an STI.

[REX8]

Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus

Drive a 302, Rex. I've driven a GT and a 302.. it's like comparing the suspension/manners of a 2.5i to an STI.

I should be so lucky...

[hkerekes]

Originally Posted by gpshumway

Fixored...

I didn't realize the Boss was quite that porky. Wow. It's 50lb heavier than a GT. Bigger brakes?

Back on topic-

As cool as M and RS cars are, I'd go for a 128i 4dr hatch first, or actually a 120d. Put the extra into something really fast, like a used Formula Atlantic. I'm sure a 120d could tow an Atlantic on a light trailer. Hmmm....

A few have scaled a stock 2012 BOSS without driver
All of them came in at 3560 with 1/4 tank of fuel or less.

Not too bad.

[gpshumway]

Originally Posted by hkerekes

A few have scaled a stock 2012 BOSS without driver
All of them came in at 3560 with 1/4 tank of fuel or less.

Not too bad.

It's funny how our perceptions get warped over time. Corvettes used to be 250hp, now we have 270hp Camrys.

My old Fox bodied 5.0 comes in under 2,900#, and now 3,500# is "not too bad".

Now to put a Coyote into the old Fox...

[Calamity Jesus]

Originally Posted by gpshumway

It's funny how our perceptions get warped over time. Corvettes used to be 250hp, now we have 270hp Camrys.

My old Fox bodied 5.0 comes in under 2,900#, and now 3,500# is "not too bad".

Now to put a Coyote into the old Fox...

For the relevance to this thread.. lets look at the 135i. The M package car weighs 3300lbs (that's halfway between a WRX & STI.. for a much smaller car). When the 1 series hit the market, BMW was falling all over itself to relate it to the 2002 (The BMW New Series that was built and sold between '67 & '76).

The 2002 weighed 2200lbs.

[Brahmzy]

Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus

For the relevance to this thread.. lets look at the 135i. The M package car weighs 3300lbs (that's halfway between a WRX & STI.. for a much smaller car). When the 1 series hit the market, BMW was falling all over itself to relate it to the 2002 (The BMW New Series that was built and sold between '67 & '76).

The 2002 weighed 2200lbs.

What's your point? Current safety standards and customer expectations wouldn't even allow a 2002 to be built. The 1er is the closest BMW to a 2002.

I've owned both Subarus (and 6 others) mentioned. I have worked on all 3 cars extensively and know them through and through. The 1er weighs what it does and still gives you an inline-6 twin turbo direct-injection powerplant with very good mpg for the power, FMIC, an extremely tight/stiff chassis, quiet interior, refined interior(not a plastic mess), a real kickass stereo, serious seats with adj. side bolsters vs. the joke POS seats that are still in the STi, 50/50 weight distribution(huge difference in balance and feel of the chassis, especially when it comes to perceived curb weight), very safe collision performance, serious auto adj. "smart" HID headlights etc. All this stuff simply weighs what it weighs.

The 1er feels and drives "solid" - there's something to be said for that. All the above mentioned stuff are things I'm willing to take in trade for a weight penalty. Both my WRX and STi were plastic, noisy, unrefined rattle traps with bad mpg. Even my '05 LGT was rattle trap, despite being touted as an upscale competitor.

Everything comes at a cost - the STi is what it is and the 135i is what it is. Do you expect the laws of physics to magically disappear? You have to decide what you want out of a vehicle and buy accordingly. I have "been there done that" too many times to count with the econobox AWD machines, starting with my '98 2.5RS. I love them and still miss my STi, but I needed a change and wanted to get into a more refined, more grown up vehicle, which the 135i is. I won't even go into the power delivery differences of an inline-6 TT vs. the STi. That said, I miss the effortless low-speed tossability of the STi sometimes, but am more than enjoying the higher speed handling and acceleration that the STi couldn't even think about touching. The difference at 50mph>on between the two cars is night and day.

Back to your point - it's physics. If low curb weight is your goal, you will give up some level of safety, chassis stiffness, creature comforts, luxury, sound deadening, engine displacement etc. Ain't rocket science. BMW builds heavier cars because they choose to - they have different goals. If they wanted to build a Japanese econo tin-can, they could, but that is not their mission. I suppose they have certain standards they will not go below and know that they will out-price and out-weigh the competition, and they're ok with that. Love it or hate it - the choice is yours.

I still love Subaru's and will own more. '14 FXT is next on the list for the wife and if they ever FI the BRZ, I may take a serious look at it. I've grown to love the behavior of RWD. Also will take a serious look at the next STi, if it proves a worthy successor to my old '05 STi - nothing out of Subaru has since.

[Calamity Jesus]

My point was relevant to the side discussion about the mustang.

The 1er is more like an e21 in size.. which was much larger than the 2002. My old E21 rode and drove solid as well.. despite it weighing about 2400lbs.

The rattling has nothing to do with weight and everything to do with material and build quality.

You sure took a ton of offense at my weight comparison.. might want to cut back on the juice there, brah. I didn't say anything derogatory about your car.

[REX8]

Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus

My point was relevant to the side discussion about the mustang.

The 1er is more like an e21 in size.. which was much larger than the 2002. My old E21 rode and drove solid as well.. despite it weighing about 2400lbs.

The rattling has nothing to do with weight and everything to do with material and build quality.
You sure took a ton of offense at my weight comparison.. might want to cut back on the juice there, brah. I didn't say anything derogatory about your car.

You had me until the bolded part. What happens when you improve build quality, be it in material choice, sound deadening, fastener 'density', etc.

Weight clearly goes up.


We've had this talk a bunch of times before. Is teh 135 light? no. Did many of us want it to be lighter? yes, of course.

But name all the luxury-oriented (sunroof, leather, decent build) 2+2 sports coupes, having 300 HP that weigh all that much less than the 1er?

That's simply what cars at that price/size/performance, meeting todas requirements, weigh these days. Sad as that is.

[Brahmzy]

Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus

My point was relevant to the side discussion about the mustang.

The 1er is more like an e21 in size.. which was much larger than the 2002. My old E21 rode and drove solid as well.. despite it weighing about 2400lbs.

The rattling has nothing to do with weight and everything to do with material and build quality.

You sure took a ton of offense at my weight comparison.. might want to cut back on the juice there, brah. I didn't say anything derogatory about your car.

I didn't take a "ton" of offense at anything. I'm continuing the discussion concerning weight that has come up multiple times in this thread. You brought up weight between the 135i and the 2002 out of the blue (why? I don't know. Other than to imply that the 135i weighs more, obviously?) And rattling can have a lot to do with weight. Quality materials and their attachment, along with sound deadening of various types DO WEIGH MORE. Torsional resistance differences between chassis/frame designs relative to the car's suspension and overall size/weight can allow interior panels to move around. If the car flexes at certain points, this can cause rattling, squeaking etc. A stiffer chassis (less flexible) typically weighs more. Physics, again.

[warpath]

Carscoop: http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2013/01...i-against.html

Once upon a time, not too long ago, buyers rarely cross shopped between Subarus and BMWs, but now, with the way that the Bavarian brand has expanded its range into most segments of the market, many of its cars directly challenge the Japanese brand's models in terms of specs and surprisingly, pricing as well.
A prime example is the newly launched in Europe BMW M135i hatchback, which with 316bhp (320PS) and 450Nm (332 lb-ft) from its turbocharged 3.0-liter straight, the option of either RWD or AWD configurations, and a UK starting price of £30,555 for the six-speed manual 3d and £31,970 for the 8-speed auto 3d model, matches the Subaru WRX STi.

The latter sports a 2.5-liter turbocharged flat-four delivering 296bhp and 407Nm (300 lb-ft) in standard guise carrying an OTR price of £32,995, and 316bhp (320PS) and 450Nm 450Nm (332 lb-ft) in 320R trim, which costs an extra £1,599.

So, which one is the better car on the track? Well, that's the question British car magazine Auto Express set to find out in its latest video review pitting the two models against each other on the Blyton Park circuit.

Before you watch the clip, allows us to note that journalist Owen Mildenhall is wrong about the BMW featuring a dual-clutch semi-automatic transmission, as the M135i is offered exclusively with a 6-speed manual or a conventional 8-speed automatic.

http://youtu.be/ORmy3q8ctL4

http://youtu.be/ORmy3q8ctL4

[Rootus]

There's no way around it, the STI is no longer the performance bargain it once was. Everyone has stepped up their game except Subaru.

[gpshumway]

The STI has never been a great track car, it's too front heavy. Nobody should be surprised that a RWD car with equivalent power to weight is faster around a track. As to value, in the Subaru you get three fancy differentials and the associated drivetrain parts of AWD. Everybody complains about the interior quality, but what's the difference in cost between a luxurious dash and a cheap one? I'll wager it's a lot less than the difference between an open diff and an ATB diff. The STI is still a pretty good value.

The STI will easily get up my driveway after a snow storm. The BMW? Not so much. Still love the Bimmer though, I just wish we'd see the 1 series hatch here in the US. I'll take mine as a 4 door 128i, please, or maybe a 128d.

[Shavenyak]

Originally Posted by Rootus

There's no way around it, the STI is no longer the performance bargain it once was. Everyone has stepped up their game except Subaru.

In England, where an STI costs $50K, yes it makes no sense. But were that 135 M to come to the US, you'd be looking at around $50K starting as compared to the STI in the $34K range, and lets not even get started on BMW's option costs.

An optioned out 328 costs over $50K now

[SoapBox]

Originally Posted by Shavenyak

In England, where an STI costs $50K, yes it makes no sense. But were that 135 M to come to the US, you'd be looking at around $50K starting as compared to the STI in the $34K range, and lets not even get started on BMW's option costs.

An optioned out 328 costs over $50K now

First off, who says we're getting the M 135?

And $50k? The 1M was started at $46k. So clearly it wouldn't be $50k starting.

The 135i, which this is closer to than the 1M, starts below $40k.

[dcsti]

Originally Posted by SoapBox

First off, who says we're getting the M 135?

And $50k? The 1M was started at $46k. So clearly it wouldn't be $50k starting.

The 135i, which this is closer to than the 1M, starts below $40k.

Sure, it starts below $40k, but you won't find many on a dealer lot for that price. Most have at least one option package on it (most likely several). The sub $40k 135i is black or white with vinyl upholstery. A reasonably equipped one is about $45k. A 135is is about $49k. I know, I went and looked.

[SoapBox]

Originally Posted by dcsti

Sure, it starts below $40k, but you won't find many on a dealer lot for that price. Most have at least one option package on it (most likely several). The sub $40k 135i is black or white with vinyl upholstery. A reasonably equipped one is about $45k. A 135is is about $49k. I know, I went and looked.

He was specifically talking about starting price. There's no way an M135, if sold here, would start at 50k, with the 1m starting at 46k and the 135i starting at 7k less than that. That was the point.

And no, sorry, the 135is starts at $43k...way to tack on $6k in options. If you want a $43k 135is, you can order one. No one is forcing you to buy what's on the dealer lot.

BTW, BMWs "leatherette" is better than many companies' leather. Sports package, with or without leather, is all you need in that car (has a sunroof standard, etc.).

I'm not sure what "reasonably equipped" means to you. What options do you need over the sports package/leather in your 2+2 sports coupe?

Again, I was responding to a post about starting prices. But beyond that, I sort of take issue with people saying the cars cost so much more than that, because dealers like to stock highly-optioned cars. If you're spending $40k on a car, surely you can wait a month or two for the car you want.

[Ysidro]

Ones an M, ones an RS3. cant go wrong with either car.

[JokerGT]

My bro has a 135i, hes got it chipped, new air intakes, meth injection.

that thing is scary fast.