Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday July 25, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Subaru Conversions

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-27-2013, 01:20 AM   #801
TyConway
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 193189
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: alabama
Vehicle:
02 wrx
silver

Default

finally got around to building the new A-arms for my car...



* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
TyConway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2013, 03:17 AM   #802
omiotek
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 272090
Join Date: Jan 2011
Default

i would put a another bar in there foing from the front inner corner to the outer diagnol bar for strength regardless of the wall thickness of your tubing. trust me on this one.
omiotek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2013, 03:57 AM   #803
TyConway
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 193189
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: alabama
Vehicle:
02 wrx
silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by omiotek View Post
i would put a another bar in there foing from the front inner corner to the outer diagnol bar for strength regardless of the wall thickness of your tubing. trust me on this one.

Why? numerous cars run a-arms just like that with thinner wall tubing. its .095 dom tubing.
TyConway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2013, 07:03 AM   #804
johnsea
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 269720
Join Date: Jan 2011
Default

Looks good.
johnsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2013, 09:53 AM   #805
3mlwhly
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 217648
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NOR CAL
Vehicle:
01 2.5rs

Default

How did you decide on the a-arm mounting points... If done wrong your caster will change when braking and will do the opposite when on throttle, what angle did you set it to and what's you reasoning, I plan to do this also, so I just want to pick your brain.. haha
3mlwhly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2013, 02:31 PM   #806
TyConway
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 193189
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: alabama
Vehicle:
02 wrx
silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3mlwhly View Post
How did you decide on the a-arm mounting points... If done wrong your caster will change when braking and will do the opposite when on throttle, what angle did you set it to and what's you reasoning, I plan to do this also, so I just want to pick your brain.. haha

same as stock, both mounting points are just lower.... reason why i had to change the control arm length to correct the steering geometry.
TyConway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2013, 04:07 PM   #807
3mlwhly
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 217648
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NOR CAL
Vehicle:
01 2.5rs

Default

Ok sounds preset reasonable
3mlwhly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2013, 08:38 AM   #808
nperkins
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 135812
Join Date: Dec 2006
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Griswold, CT
Vehicle:
90 Miata
04 Evo Rally Car

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TyConway View Post
Why? numerous cars run a-arms just like that with thinner wall tubing. its .095 dom tubing.
with .095 I don't think you need more bars... I am a big fan of gussets though...
nperkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2013, 01:53 AM   #809
omiotek
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 272090
Join Date: Jan 2011
Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by TyConway View Post
Why? numerous cars run a-arms just like that with thinner wall tubing. its .095 dom tubing.
that i can understand.... ive never liked that style design of a arm but to each is their own. i would atleast do some gussets or something in there as a safety feature or another diagnol brace out of a thinner wall or the same material for extra support. especially if you plan to street drive this thing. theres no such thing as too much support imho.

not to say this would ever happen... but lets say a weld started to fail(knock on wood it never does) somewhere in the a arm atleast theres an additional brace in their to aid against complete destruction. ive see numerous tubular a arms fail over time(even with "great" welders)

great progress none the less and glad your healing well..... p.s i have the same magnets haha.
omiotek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2013, 12:23 PM   #810
johnsea
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 269720
Join Date: Jan 2011
Default

What tubing did u end up making the subframe and tranny mount out of?
johnsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2013, 01:10 PM   #811
TyConway
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 193189
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: alabama
Vehicle:
02 wrx
silver

Default

dom .156 wall... trans mount 095

Last edited by TyConway; 10-30-2013 at 01:37 PM.
TyConway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2013, 11:08 PM   #812
ScoobyJD
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 185910
Join Date: Aug 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Westminster, Maryland 21157
Vehicle:
07 WRX TR WRB

Default

nice work ty I wish I could weld and calculate like you! I would be out in the shop doing this in a heartbeat!
ScoobyJD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2013, 06:47 PM   #813
zman519
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 118086
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: The land of BEER and Cheese
Vehicle:
2003 WRX
WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoobyJD View Post
nice work ty I wish I could weld and calculate like you! I would be out in the shop doing this in a heartbeat!
Give it a try (welding) it just take a little time and practice to get the basics.
zman519 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2013, 10:10 PM   #814
ScoobyJD
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 185910
Join Date: Aug 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Westminster, Maryland 21157
Vehicle:
07 WRX TR WRB

Default

Maybe I will go over my dad's and start learning how to do it. It's just a Eastwood Mig175
ScoobyJD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2013, 10:56 PM   #815
Dmochowski
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 306478
Join Date: Jan 2012
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: chattanooga, TN
Vehicle:
2012 WRX limited
305whp/360tq TSM tuned

Default

wow this looks like its gonna be a beast!

Mind if i ask what you do? always curious what you guys who do most of the work yourself do for a living. I like to think of my car building as a hobby and i dont have the knowledge to ever undertake something like this. I am guessing you have a lot of experience with this sort of stuff haha!
Dmochowski is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2013, 11:33 PM   #816
jdogma
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 242350
Join Date: Mar 2010
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Atlanta
Vehicle:
2013 Carma Wolf EZ30
black

Default

[quote=TyConway;40842613]finally got around to building the new A-arms for my car...
Hate to give negative input on what is very nice workmanship....

It is not good practice to use rod end spherical bearings in a way that puts bending loads on the threads. The threads are stress risers. Cyclical loads on them will invite failure. They are designed to be loaded in a straight line in almost pure compression and tension. You can get away with it on an upper arm and on a light car, but the rod end at the lower ball joint location will have both the spring and shock loads as well as braking and acceleration forces on it. The forward inner rod end is close to ideal, the rear inner one will have some bending load on it and is not ideal, but the outer LBJ one looks scary to me.

Last edited by jdogma; 11-02-2013 at 11:42 PM.
jdogma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2013, 01:53 AM   #817
TyConway
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 193189
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: alabama
Vehicle:
02 wrx
silver

Default

[quote=jdogma;40883083]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyConway View Post
finally got around to building the new A-arms for my car...
Hate to give negative input on what is very nice workmanship....

It is not good practice to use rod end spherical bearings in a way that puts bending loads on the threads. The threads are stress risers. Cyclical loads on them will invite failure. They are designed to be loaded in a straight line in almost pure compression and tension. You can get away with it on an upper arm and on a light car, but the rod end at the lower ball joint location will have both the spring and shock loads as well as braking and acceleration forces on it. The forward inner rod end is close to ideal, the rear inner one will have some bending load on it and is not ideal, but the outer LBJ one looks scary to me.

they are rated at a static load of 20K lbs.... I run these on rock crawlers and never had one fail, and thats bashing off rocks. If I felt like something was going to fail, i wouldnt use or run it on my car. I made that one a-arm for mock up, still waiting on my ball joints to come in, Like the ones used on TSSfab control arms.

Also tssfab that does cradles and control arms for wrx's runs an arm similar to my first ones and the heims side ways...

My buddy is a mechanical engineer and works at motion industries and they can test failure points, I'll get him to test an A-arm and a heim and see what the breaking points are. also hes the one that built the lower ball joint adapters.
Yet i wonder if anyone ever has looked at how tiny factory ball joints and tie rods are on cars... just like the stamped sheetmetal a-arms found on wrx's and several other cars.

Last edited by TyConway; 11-03-2013 at 01:19 AM.
TyConway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2013, 01:58 AM   #818
TyConway
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 193189
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: alabama
Vehicle:
02 wrx
silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmochowski View Post
wow this looks like its gonna be a beast!

Mind if i ask what you do? always curious what you guys who do most of the work yourself do for a living. I like to think of my car building as a hobby and i dont have the knowledge to ever undertake something like this. I am guessing you have a lot of experience with this sort of stuff haha!
I owned a collision repair shop, sold it in 09. After that I wanted something different to do so i did maintenance on gpx bowling machines since then. That company just sold so currently unemployed. I really hate working on cars for other people, i enjoy it more for a hobby. But my dad owned a mechanic shop for 25 yrs so i've been around cars my whole life.
TyConway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 02:40 AM   #819
jdogma
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 242350
Join Date: Mar 2010
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Atlanta
Vehicle:
2013 Carma Wolf EZ30
black

Default

[quote=TyConway;40883407]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdogma View Post


they are rated at a static load of 20K lbs.... I run these on rock crawlers and never had one fail, and thats bashing off rocks. If I felt like something was going to fail, i wouldnt use or run it on my car. I made that one a-arm for mock up, still waiting on my ball joints to come in, Like the ones used on TSSfab control arms.

Also tssfab that does cradles and control arms for wrx's runs an arm similar to my first ones and the heims side ways...

My buddy is a mechanical engineer and works at motion industries and they can test failure points, I'll get him to test an A-arm and a heim and see what the breaking points are. also hes the one that built the lower ball joint adapters.
Yet i wonder if anyone ever has looked at how tiny factory ball joints and tie rods are on cars... just like the stamped sheetmetal a-arms found on wrx's and several other cars.
I agree that they seem to work, but the load ratings for the rod end are based on axial and radial loads. They do not rate them for bending load on the threaded rod. If used as intended, where they are loaded in a pure tension/compression fashion like on a tie rod, rod end sphericals can be very small. I have used 1/4 inch bore, 5/16 shank tie rod ends in a GT car application - so did Saleen on their S7.

I would like to see test methodology and results of any tests, but my main concern is cyclical loading, the back and forth bending of the threaded portion over a long period of time.

My guess is that a few hours at the track will not break them, but after a couple of years and a bit of corrosion...

Suspension has been a focus of mine for many years and that's my take.
jdogma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 12:01 PM   #820
TyConway
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 193189
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: alabama
Vehicle:
02 wrx
silver

Default

[quote=jdogma;40888231]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyConway View Post

I agree that they seem to work, but the load ratings for the rod end are based on axial and radial loads. They do not rate them for bending load on the threaded rod. If used as intended, where they are loaded in a pure tension/compression fashion like on a tie rod, rod end sphericals can be very small. I have used 1/4 inch bore, 5/16 shank tie rod ends in a GT car application - so did Saleen on their S7.

I would like to see test methodology and results of any tests, but my main concern is cyclical loading, the back and forth bending of the threaded portion over a long period of time.

My guess is that a few hours at the track will not break them, but after a couple of years and a bit of corrosion...

Suspension has been a focus of mine for many years and that's my take.

Yes thats your opinion on it, I see what your saying but I don't think thats the case here.... Numerous companies sell A-arms and suspension components that run heims and unicups just like I'm going to do. I yet to see how a hd suspension component is just going to break, after stock components not near the strength hold up after years of neglect and abuse. Also there isn't any more than a 1/4" of thread showing out of the bung. There is 1.25" of thread treaded in. The thread is 5/8" thick. Also on the rock crawlers / buggies we have built, when a heim gets damaged or worn, its pretty easy to notice it by feel or noise alone. If I had an issue causing my car to drive funny, i'd check it out, not keep driving. I do routine maintenance fairly often.
TyConway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 12:07 PM   #821
TyConway
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 193189
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: alabama
Vehicle:
02 wrx
silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zman519 View Post
Give it a try (welding) it just take a little time and practice to get the basics.

Yea once you get the basics, then your good to go, learn as you go mainly. I didn't pick up a welder until i was 16 in shop class... I loved wood working and never got into metal working until the shop teacher made me do some welding tests and it was all down hill after that.
TyConway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 01:10 PM   #822
jdogma
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 242350
Join Date: Mar 2010
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Atlanta
Vehicle:
2013 Carma Wolf EZ30
black

Default

[quote=TyConway;40889990]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdogma View Post


Yes thats your opinion on it, I see what your saying but I don't think thats the case here.... Numerous companies sell A-arms and suspension components that run heims and unicups just like I'm going to do. I yet to see how a hd suspension component is just going to break, after stock components not near the strength hold up after years of neglect and abuse. Also there isn't any more than a 1/4" of thread showing out of the bung. There is 1.25" of thread treaded in. The thread is 5/8" thick. Also on the rock crawlers / buggies we have built, when a heim gets damaged or worn, its pretty easy to notice it by feel or noise alone. If I had an issue causing my car to drive funny, i'd check it out, not keep driving. I do routine maintenance fairly often.
A unicup is a machined ring that serves as a spherical bearing housing: http://www.rodendsupply.com/parts/uni-ball-cups/ I don't see you using any, but that is the proper way to do a lower or upper ball joint because the loads can be directly put into the machined ring without bending loads. You will not find anyone offering a lower control arm with a rod end (what you call a Heim joint) for a lower ball joint (show me one). They always have a bearing receptical (unicup). The reason is because rod ends are not intended to take bending loads in the shaft and they will fail. Call a rod end manufacturer, like Aurora, and ask for an engineer. Send him a photo of your front lower control arm - after you put the spring/shock mount on it. See what he thinks.
jdogma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 02:10 PM   #823
TyConway
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 193189
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: alabama
Vehicle:
02 wrx
silver

Default

[quote=jdogma;40890514]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyConway View Post

A unicup is a machined ring that serves as a spherical bearing housing: http://www.rodendsupply.com/parts/uni-ball-cups/ I don't see you using any, but that is the proper way to do a lower or upper ball joint because the loads can be directly put into the machined ring without bending loads. You will not find anyone offering a lower control arm with a rod end (what you call a Heim joint) for a lower ball joint (show me one). They always have a bearing receptical (unicup). The reason is because rod ends are not intended to take bending loads in the shaft and they will fail. Call a rod end manufacturer, like Aurora, and ask for an engineer. Send him a photo of your front lower control arm - after you put the spring/shock mount on it. See what he thinks.

Like i Said earlier, heims on the end are for mock up, i can turn them out and in to get the correct length for the camber and so on. Also a heim and bung are cheaper to mock up with over a 50 to 100 dollar unibearing kit. I'm running unicup on the outers. My order of metal has been on back order for 2 weeks due to a band saw breaking at stockcarsteel.com. The reason why I haven't been able to finish up my a-arms, just had enough dom left over to build one A-arm.
Also there isn't any spring or shock mounts on my lower a-arms. the strut connects to the spindle.
TyConway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 03:25 PM   #824
jdogma
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 242350
Join Date: Mar 2010
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Atlanta
Vehicle:
2013 Carma Wolf EZ30
black

Default

" I made that one a-arm for mock up" - understand now, I missed that!
jdogma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2013, 07:26 AM   #825
OddBallRacing
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 136429
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Censor-nati, Ohio
Vehicle:
1996 ImprezaBrighton
Gawdawful Green

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TyConway View Post
anyone thats interested in a lsx swap cradle with control arms PM me... Should have one built within 10 days, long as all the parts come in by the end of the week. I'll post pics of it. Should be pretty nice, nicer than the one in my car now. If I get a lot of interest in it, I'll go ahead and build jigs and should be able to knock them out fairly quick.
As tempting ast that would be, what would the price be?

Great work otherwise!
OddBallRacing is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.