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Old 10-29-2012, 03:04 AM   #1
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Default Toluene in meth injection kits?

Anyone know if it's safe to use toluene in some/most/all/any meth injection kits?

And does anyone know if toluene suppresses detonation any better (or worse) than methanol and/or water?

Toluene is usually just mixed into the fuel tank, but for daily driver usage it would be a lot more economical to inject it on-demand instead.

Just thinking out loud...
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Old 10-29-2012, 02:02 PM   #2
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It'll eat away at rubber and plastics. Probably not the best thing for injecting.
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Old 10-29-2012, 08:38 PM   #3
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It's a solvent so it will chew things up. That could be mitigated by mixing it with gasoline, but that would defeat the purpose of aux injection. It has an octane rating similar to meth, and btu/lb similar to gasoline. It has a higher heat of vaporization than methanol, but it's specific heat capacity is lower.

Toluene or Xylene would be better candidates for DIY race gas than an aux injectant.
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Old 10-29-2012, 09:53 PM   #4
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I would think that you could inject it with an additional injector and driver if you are able to control pulse width. It would require a complete fuel system though. Also I'm not sure what the cooling effect would be if placed prethrottle body and/or what effect that would have on the throttle body seals.
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Old 10-31-2012, 09:25 AM   #5
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Toluene has a considerable higher viscosity than Methanol. It was used a lot in the Turbo-F1 Era and was run on those engines as the major component in their racefuels. However due to the higher viscosity it was hard to start the car and to get proper spray patterns from injectors. Many times the hardlines of the Fuelsystem running Toluene was heated to around 70*C to get better viscosity.

I would stay away from that rubbish. It's not very user friendly and does not have as high an octane as Methanol. Now that doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't suppress DET any worse but it's just too much of a hassle messing with it.

If you want to try Toluene you are better off with Xylene I reckon.

Jasper.
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Old 10-31-2012, 05:46 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkopinga View Post
Toluene has a considerable higher viscosity than Methanol. It was used a lot in the Turbo-F1 Era and was run on those engines as the major component in their racefuels. However due to the higher viscosity it was hard to start the car and to get proper spray patterns from injectors. Many times the hardlines of the Fuelsystem running Toluene was heated to around 70*C to get better viscosity.

I would stay away from that rubbish. It's not very user friendly and does not have as high an octane as Methanol. Now that doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't suppress DET any worse but it's just too much of a hassle messing with it.

If you want to try Toluene you are better off with Xylene I reckon.

Jasper.
i think that there was a lot of research done on this back before wwII

methanol injection was widly used in aviation to boost performance of aircraft for take off and SYA...save your ass in combat situations

other than the fact that alcohol has a low freeze point, the use of it in madly overboosted aircraft like the me109 and others.....if toluene or xylene was a good idea...they woulda used it instead


and the anti knock index of toluene is almost infinite.....the mid 80's Fi cars used 86% toluene 14% n-heptane as fuel, per the rules and the bmw 1.5L engines managed about 1500hp in qualifing trim....iirc they were in the 80'ish PSI range for boost

i wouldnt inject toluene or xylene...or methanol as it is very corrosive and toxic.....many have used far less problematic IPA that can be had anywhere...and what i would use if i installed a system
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Old 11-01-2012, 12:46 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty View Post
other than the fact that alcohol has a low freeze point, the use of it in madly overboosted aircraft like the me109 and others.....if toluene or xylene was a good idea...they woulda used it instead
Were toluene or xylene available in the quantities they needed? Were they equally affordable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty View Post
and the anti knock index of toluene is almost infinite.....the mid 80's Fi cars used 86% toluene 14% n-heptane as fuel, per the rules and the bmw 1.5L engines managed about 1500hp in qualifing trim....iirc they were in the 80'ish PSI range for boost
Interesting. By your way of thinking, if methanol was a good idea, the F1 teams woulda used it instead...

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i wouldnt inject toluene or xylene...or methanol as it is very corrosive and toxic.....many have used far less problematic IPA that can be had anywhere...and what i would use if i installed a system
You really think Indian Pale Ale would stave off detonation?
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:03 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkopinga View Post
Toluene has a considerable higher viscosity than Methanol. It was used a lot in the Turbo-F1 Era and was run on those engines as the major component in their racefuels. However due to the higher viscosity it was hard to start the car and to get proper spray patterns from injectors. Many times the hardlines of the Fuelsystem running Toluene was heated to around 70*C to get better viscosity.

I would stay away from that rubbish. It's not very user friendly and does not have as high an octane as Methanol. Now that doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't suppress DET any worse but it's just too much of a hassle messing with it.

If you want to try Toluene you are better off with Xylene I reckon.

Jasper.
Thanks for the info about viscosity and atomization. I would not have thought of that. Heating would add a bunch of complexity that I don't want to deal with.

But then... what about xylene injection? The closest I've come to xylene has been marker pens, so I have no idea what it would be like to work with it.
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:05 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
Were toluene or xylene available in the quantities they needed? Were they equally affordable?


d0000000000d......
yeah.....


Interesting. By your way of thinking, if methanol was a good idea, the F1 teams woulda used it instead...

they left that to indy cars...and the aki of toluene is off the charts ....how else did they make 1500hp on 95cu in???



You really think Indian Pale Ale would stave off detonation?
drink the ale after ya get home from driving
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:07 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
Thanks for the info about viscosity and atomization. I would not have thought of that. Heating would add a bunch of complexity that I don't want to deal with.

But then... what about xylene injection? The closest I've come to xylene has been marker pens, so I have no idea what it would be like to work with it.
many of the f1 desgns ran the fuel(toluene) lines through the exhaust to preheat the fuel

getting them started on a cool day was a complex and difficult procedure
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Old 11-01-2012, 11:36 AM   #11
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That looks similar to the procedure that the vegetable oil powered diesels use (for the same reasons). They start on regular dino and then once it's up to temp they switch over to the veggie.

The question of racing vs WWII is easy. Fighter planes and bombers couldn't have complicated startup procedures or touchy engines. Aux injection makes sense for them because they're not running at emergency power for the duration of a race.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:45 PM   #12
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Umm...

Toluene is a major component in some gasolines along with Xylene. So the lines and everything are compatible with it. If you can find the MSDS on the gasoline at some of your local gas stations you will see this.


People use meth because of the specific heat and low energy content. If you use meth you dont need alot to take alot of heat away and you dont have to change fuel map much for its use like you would with race gas, toluene or xylene. IPA is almost as good as meth too. Though you have to take it into consideration your fuel map more.
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Old 11-02-2012, 05:38 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kay95 View Post
Umm...

Toluene is a major component in some gasolines along with Xylene. So the lines and everything are compatible with it. If you can find the MSDS on the gasoline at some of your local gas stations you will see this.


People use meth because of the specific heat and low energy content. If you use meth you dont need alot to take alot of heat away and you dont have to change fuel map much for its use like you would with race gas, toluene or xylene. IPA is almost as good as meth too. Though you have to take it into consideration your fuel map more.

brewing gasoline is a complicated process and the ratios of toluene and xylene change all the time

xylene ratio is usually adjusted to control vapor pressure and is more often used in aviation fuel
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:55 AM   #14
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If you want to experiment with different kind of additives into the fuel just forget about Water/Meth injection. Just mix it in the Fueltank with the pumpgas you're running.

I have run 80% RON98 / 20% Meth mixes with great success in the Fueltank which is awesome. I have even pondered running 60% RON98 / 40% Meth in the tank. Just make sure you have large enough injectors AND regularly check your fuel lines etc. I do not run it longterm and let it sit in the fuel lines for too long. When I'm done testing/racing I flush it with straight RON98.

I would do the same with Xylene if it weren't more expensive than Meth and for what I want Meth just works wonders.

A proper RON98 / Meth mix will easily outperform E-85 when done properly.

Jasper.
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:23 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkopinga View Post
If you want to experiment with different kind of additives into the fuel just forget about Water/Meth injection. Just mix it in the Fueltank with the pumpgas you're running.

I have run 80% RON98 / 20% Meth mixes with great success in the Fueltank which is awesome. I have even pondered running 60% RON98 / 40% Meth in the tank. Just make sure you have large enough injectors AND regularly check your fuel lines etc. I do not run it longterm and let it sit in the fuel lines for too long. When I'm done testing/racing I flush it with straight RON98.

I would do the same with Xylene if it weren't more expensive than Meth and for what I want Meth just works wonders.

A proper RON98 / Meth mix will easily outperform E-85 when done properly.

Jasper.
Do you retune for the 80/20 mix, or does the engine run well enough with a pump gas tune? I'd expect the indicated AFR to lean out a little bit, but if the effective octane rating increases enough to compensate, then that might still work with the same tune. Which would be kind of neat.

I guess what I'm really wondering is whether you use that mix for a bit of extra knock resistance (with the same tune - like adding Torco), or for extra horsepower (retuned).
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Old 11-07-2012, 10:34 AM   #16
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You can buy Xylene at most paint stores, and places like Home Depot and Lowe's. Usually by the quart or so.


~Josh~
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:21 PM   #17
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Just saw xylene and toulene at Ace Hardware yesterday. $20 a gallon/$10 a quart. I saw some info about using it as octane booster on a GN site, but nothing about injecting it.
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:28 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
Do you retune for the 80/20 mix, or does the engine run well enough with a pump gas tune? I'd expect the indicated AFR to lean out a little bit, but if the effective octane rating increases enough to compensate, then that might still work with the same tune. Which would be kind of neat.

I guess what I'm really wondering is whether you use that mix for a bit of extra knock resistance (with the same tune - like adding Torco), or for extra horsepower (retuned).
^^^ Sure! It's gonna run waayy lean on that. When you run 20% Meth mix you'll need to add approximately 10% of Fuel across the board all the way from Idle to redline to have AFRs back to where they should be. 10% of Fuel means that IF you were at 11 AFR you'll go to an AFR of 12.25 approximately when not changing anything. It will idle way lean which makes for stutters and hesitation. However it doesn't make sense to go leaner when it has a better knock resistance. Methanol likes to run quite rich.

It produces more power and has more DET resistance. I made more power even keeping timing the same which is probably due to the better cooling effect of the Methanol. However I could gain even more adding several degrees more timing.

Cheers,

Jasper.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:44 PM   #19
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Interesting thread guys. I am interested in hearing if anyone else has used meth in the fuel mixture. I'm injecting a 50/50 mix of water/meth and have been daily driving it for about 6 months now and I love the results. It's done a few track days and a rally so far and is running strong. I have managed to find it locally for about $3.50 per gallon so it's not even that expensive. But I haven't really maxed out the timing because it's just not as reliable as the primary fuel injection system and I can't risk engine failure on my DD.
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Old 12-15-2012, 03:30 AM   #20
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Just saw xylene and toulene at Ace Hardware yesterday. $20 a gallon/$10 a quart. I saw some info about using it as octane booster on a GN site, but nothing about injecting it.
Now you see why I like the idea of injecting it on-demand rather than pouring it into the tank.
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Old 12-15-2012, 07:44 PM   #21
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Now you see why I like the idea of injecting it on-demand rather than pouring it into the tank.
it usta be cheap.....

I was getting 5gal cans of toluene for $25 and xylene for $30

3qt toluene and 2qt xylene and a splash of ATF in 10 gal of 93 was a great mix
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:28 AM   #22
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Now you see why I like the idea of injecting it on-demand rather than pouring it into the tank.
Yep, but I think you are moving from simply charge cooling to aux fuel injection. I'm just not sure how it would work. I'm sure it would work to some extent, I'm just not sure what the results would be.

Sounds like you just need to try it.

I do think $20 a gallon is pretty ridiculous, though.

Quote:
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it usta be cheap.....

I was getting 5gal cans of toluene for $25 and xylene for $30

3qt toluene and 2qt xylene and a splash of ATF in 10 gal of 93 was a great mix
Yep, no more. It's cheaper just to buy race gas now...or E85, though we don't have that in my area.
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:21 PM   #23
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I was thinking that you could probably get away with a flex fuel injector (as they're stainless and cheap), but you'd have to figure out PWM control. I considered using this for direct port methanol injection, but I run a standalone and have spare injector outputs. It would likely be more reliable than water injection misting nozzles

One other option if you're into additives, which it looks like you're not, is this: http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs...9#.UT5J6qU0pG4

If I remember correctly it has a similar amount of MMT as a popular product for a slightly lower price. It also comes with the same issues of leaving a nice residue on valves etc...
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:47 PM   #24
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I'm thinking of trying my own home brew gas but using Isopropyl instead of an aggressive solvent like toluene or xylene. Plus IPA has a ron of 118 and a MON of 98!!! And it's easy to buy in bulk at very high purity. Seems like a win win from my vantage. Won't do nearly as much damage to the fuel lines as toluene or xylene, fumes are much less deadly, not known as a carcinogen, etc...

-Matt
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Old 03-16-2013, 03:58 AM   #25
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Isopropyl is not an ideal fuel for engines:

http://enginehistory.org/Frank%20WalkerWeb1.pdf
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