Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Saturday August 30, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Built Motor Discussion

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-29-2012, 11:27 AM   #1
Crystal_Imprezav
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 84105
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: I'm a Newbie
Vehicle:
2005 Super Slow STi
CGM

Default Outfront Motorsports Closed-Deck Torture Test

So this all stems back from the other thread about Outfront's closed-deck being useless since I have seen cracks with them installed. Since then, they took me up on my offer to abuse one to see if their NEW design is any good. I'll give them an A for effort so far, to take the constructive critisism and actually do something about it instead of continuing to sell a worthless product. On to the pictures.

Here is the old design. Notice the minute and worthless material around the case bolt relief slots up top on the trust side. Also notice that they cut out the stock braces and pressed in one solid piece. The problem with that IMO is that the cylinders just became an open deck and pressing in the new deck will move the cylinders around more so and if the new deck expands differently then you will continue to distort the deck.

Which eventually will lead to this:


Their new design, leaves the stock braces and beefs up the case bolt slots. The funky looking bottom plate actually looks like that on purpose because that is where a cooling passage is on the newer HG's.




The plate actually requires you to grind down you case bolts and washers about 1mm in order for them to fit into the cases.




So far, I am somewhat impressed with the newer design. More to follow.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

Last edited by Crystal_Imprezav; 05-02-2014 at 10:40 AM.
Crystal_Imprezav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 11:28 AM   #2
Crystal_Imprezav
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 84105
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: I'm a Newbie
Vehicle:
2005 Super Slow STi
CGM

Default

Hardware included: Cleaned and some replated bolts. A set of the new King main bearings. Some misc gaskets and seals.


Last edited by Crystal_Imprezav; 10-30-2012 at 01:09 PM.
Crystal_Imprezav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 11:28 AM   #3
Crystal_Imprezav
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 84105
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: I'm a Newbie
Vehicle:
2005 Super Slow STi
CGM

Default

Reserved 2
Crystal_Imprezav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 11:54 AM   #4
...CHUCKLES...
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 149674
Join Date: May 2007
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: at your moms
Vehicle:
2006 LimitLess STI
SGM

Default

So when you say "Torture Test" what exactly do you plan on doing?

Are you comparing it to something else?
Are you going to use a real dyno? Not just VDR.
Are you just planning to see how many lbs of boost, volts of knock, retarded or advanced timing it will take before it pops?
Are you going to break in the motor?
Are you going to also use a rallyspec closed deck block as well? For a comparison.
What fuel, turbo, injectors ect ect will you be using?
Will this be tested in a climate controlled room?

Last edited by ...CHUCKLES...; 10-29-2012 at 01:16 PM. Reason: Spelling errors
...CHUCKLES... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 12:23 PM   #5
albersondh
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 196882
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Holset baller on a budget.
Vehicle:
08 WRX

Default

With a reasonable idea of the threashold that OE cylinders bust, the idea is to prove that this solution can take you past that threshold, or this is my understanding of the test.

The bigger question for me is if this is meant to be destructive testing. Push it untill it breaks?

I hope this works out and Im sure CI will document findings very well. Hats off to Outfront for stepping up to the bar.
albersondh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 12:52 PM   #6
Crystal_Imprezav
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 84105
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: I'm a Newbie
Vehicle:
2005 Super Slow STi
CGM

Default

Not meant to be destructive testing. The block will see the same abuse my current block sees. The idea will be to run the block at 30-32psi and to put some daily driving miles on it, hopefully run it at the track a few times when it reopens, then tear it down and see how it looks. If it truly works, we should see no cracks, less engine wear, same/good cooling, etc. JC supposedly got the sleeves to crack at around 32psi so it should be interesting to see what happens around that power level.
Crystal_Imprezav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 12:55 PM   #7
Irv Weissmanhowerton
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 278519
Join Date: Apr 2011
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Area P, Alliance Fab
Vehicle:
30r E85 STI K'biz
Phatbotti Tuning

Default

try and get that turbo to match the aq t/a car, what is that at like 700+whp now? also once you do that, some 20-30 min road race sessions of 55-8k the whole time will tell us a bit, drag I feel isn't as hard as long term hotter temps abuse

jolly good show mate, Can't wait

hopefully they don't still outsource their head work from the same guys down the street, that is what I feel was the main reason in our failures, but you had more first hand experience checking out our closed decks as you teared them down, warped, ovaled, bad/inconsistant clearances, and worse of all proud of selling china parts to make the extra buck, anyone buying stuff from them be sure to ask if its oem stuff, or just supply them with the gasket kit, and a few other things, their 1/2" headstud im not sure if it arp or china stuff, but for 500 including machine work to block and putting the new insert in the heads, sounds like a china stud price, gaskets are most likely china and worst of all their h-beam forged rods are super cheezy and we are way better off using stock sti rods instead of those

chuckles, what does crystal using a rallyspec closed deck have anything to do with this test?

Last edited by Irv Weissmanhowerton; 10-29-2012 at 01:02 PM.
Irv Weissmanhowerton is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 01:07 PM   #8
...CHUCKLES...
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 149674
Join Date: May 2007
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: at your moms
Vehicle:
2006 LimitLess STI
SGM

Default

^^^ I am not so convinced of this, because Outfront has been doing closed deck blocks for years almost a decade or more even before the more recent 704 cases debacol have been out.

However I do think it is great Jeremy and the guys from Outfront were willing to take this task on. I would have just assumed that if they wanted to do a REAL torture test they would have sent a completed turn key motor to a legitamate engine testing faculty to prove... Something.

So to me this almost seems like a blind test with no comparison, there for no matter the results it will most certainly be better than nothing and result in fantom data.

I just see WAY to many loopholes in this so to speek test.

But I am getting way ahead of myself this might just turn out fanominal... We shall see.
...CHUCKLES... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 01:13 PM   #9
...CHUCKLES...
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 149674
Join Date: May 2007
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: at your moms
Vehicle:
2006 LimitLess STI
SGM

Default

The rallyspec block was just a question if there was a comparison? And would that be compared to the Outfront closed deck block test to the rallyspec closed deck (if he were to test that to). Outside of that there was no reason for it.
...CHUCKLES... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 01:33 PM   #10
Crystal_Imprezav
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 84105
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: I'm a Newbie
Vehicle:
2005 Super Slow STi
CGM

Default

JC only had a GTX35R so my HTA86 should be pretty close in comparison.

Rallispec doesn't make a closed deck block that I know of. Did you mean S&R?
Crystal_Imprezav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 02:09 PM   #11
...CHUCKLES...
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 149674
Join Date: May 2007
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: at your moms
Vehicle:
2006 LimitLess STI
SGM

Default

Well any closed deck block for that matter. I could have swore rallispec did at one point (if not my bad).

But the the main point of that was to have a comparison of any kind, and not just say that this Outfront block is better or worse than... Err, aah this Outfront block.
...CHUCKLES... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 02:30 PM   #12
Juks
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 108163
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Vehicle:
2005 STI - 10.2@137
2002 WRX - EJ257/60-1/6MT

Default

As a guy in a situation where I'd be interested in actually spending the money, I'd want to know how it stacks up against a stock block, and against a standard sleeved block.

I don't know if wheel horse/torque, or just flat out boost pressure is a better number to measure (without putting fancy technology to measure actual cylinder pressure).

In the end, my concern, as a potential customer, is say next year I was to run a monster turbo and really crank up the boost. What's the most cost effective way of getting my hands on a block that will handle this? Are these things going to be better than a stock block? Better than sleeves? At what cost?

Looking forward to results!
Juks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 02:50 PM   #13
wrxsubiemod
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 165104
Join Date: Nov 2007
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: name where you like it
Vehicle:
E85 SoCalPorting
Phatron tuned

Default

Would it be possible to O-ring the block?
wrxsubiemod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 03:02 PM   #14
reid-o
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 103631
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mililani, Hawaii
Vehicle:
2004 STI
Black

Default

Thanks for doing this. Despite other critical sentiments made by other members, I really appreciate your posts.

My only concern is that you're not currently destroying blocks as is, so that makes it hard to compare. If you do manage to crack the sleeves, what does that prove? Likewise, what will it prove if the block survives considering you don't have a problem right now.

Still I'm anxious to hear your thoughts after testing.
reid-o is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 03:15 PM   #15
Crystal_Imprezav
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 84105
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: I'm a Newbie
Vehicle:
2005 Super Slow STi
CGM

Default

Once I am done testing it, the teardown should tell a lot. If the inserts are truly working well, skirt wear, ring wear, and cylinder wear should be much less than with a stock semi-closed deck motor which I will compare to. Like reid-o said, I don't destroy blocks as is so it is highly unlikey I will destroy this one but running it with identical internals to my current motor should give a decent comparison on wear.
Crystal_Imprezav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 03:19 PM   #16
Crystal_Imprezav
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 84105
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: I'm a Newbie
Vehicle:
2005 Super Slow STi
CGM

Default

Also, the previous design of their inserts probably made the sleeves weaker than stock since they were machining a step into the sleeve and replacing it with a thin piece of unsupported aluminum as the case bolts. The current insert machines less of the sleeve and the instert actually has some material behind it for support.
Crystal_Imprezav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 03:24 PM   #17
Juks
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 108163
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Vehicle:
2005 STI - 10.2@137
2002 WRX - EJ257/60-1/6MT

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav View Post
Once I am done testing it, the teardown should tell a lot. If the inserts are truly working well, skirt wear, ring wear, and cylinder wear should be much less than with a stock semi-closed deck motor which I will compare to. Like reid-o said, I don't destroy blocks as is so it is highly unlikey I will destroy this one but running it with identical internals to my current motor should give a decent comparison on wear.
Seems you should be able to push more boost than is recommended for a stock block with your HTA86 right? Any value to doing so? Maybe give some guys a comfort level in running big boost on these things? I don't know what guys are maxing stock blocks on, but I thought I read 32psi was as high as you wanted to go on stock sleeves (with a turbo worth doing it with). Any chance you can run 35psi on your HTA for a while?
Juks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 03:39 PM   #18
TheBoz
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 64397
Join Date: Jun 2004
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Corona, CA USA
Vehicle:
2006 WRX STI
Steel Gray

Default

Sounds like a cool test.

Things that would be cool to know ahead of time.

Bore Diameter(Top/Bottom), Bore Squareness(Before/After Torque plate)

Milage of car before motor goes in, and millage after motor comes out(pics are win).

Compression after start, after breakin, at end of testing cycle.

All modifications associated with test, AEM EMS Cal Associated with Test, Log Files associated with test. Oils used with motor.

Dyno Chart after breakin, and Dyno Chart at end of test.


I am sure ther is more data that would be cool, but that is just off the top of my head. Are you going to put road racing miles on that motor, it seems that would be a good way to rack up some decent abuse to that motor in a short amount of time.

Also I might not agree with Crystal because of other interactions with him, but I am interested in seeing the results.
TheBoz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 04:09 PM   #19
LEGITWRX
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 255816
Join Date: Aug 2010
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Lake Elsinore
Vehicle:
2006 Subaru WRX WRB
omgwtfbbq

Default

I like this... Can't wait to see the results.
LEGITWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 04:28 PM   #20
Paidfor
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 267815
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Workn on my LSX swap
Vehicle:
Be in awe
dont hate .)

Default

As long as Outfront is at least checking there bearing clearances now...............all should be good
Paidfor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 06:26 PM   #21
reid-o
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 103631
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mililani, Hawaii
Vehicle:
2004 STI
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav View Post
Once I am done testing it, the teardown should tell a lot. If the inserts are truly working well, skirt wear, ring wear, and cylinder wear should be much less than with a stock semi-closed deck motor which I will compare to. Like reid-o said, I don't destroy blocks as is so it is highly unlikey I will destroy this one but running it with identical internals to my current motor should give a decent comparison on wear.
If the plate adds stability to the sleeves thus reducing wear, then it might have merit other than the ones stated by outfront. One could only speculate from a tear down that the reduced wear was from less sleeve movement and only draw a strong correlation, but it would be enough for me if the costs were reasonable and the machining consistent.

S&R quoted me 2500 for a bare block fitted with their deck inserts. Just FYI
reid-o is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 06:48 PM   #22
Irv Weissmanhowerton
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 278519
Join Date: Apr 2011
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Area P, Alliance Fab
Vehicle:
30r E85 STI K'biz
Phatbotti Tuning

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoz View Post

Bore Diameter(Top/Bottom), Bore Squareness(Before/After Torque plate)


Compression after start, after breakin, at end of testing cycle.
+1 to this
Irv Weissmanhowerton is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 07:06 PM   #23
outfrontmotorsports
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 220204
Join Date: Aug 2009
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Buena Park, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by reid-o View Post
If the plate adds stability to the sleeves thus reducing wear, then it might have merit other than the ones stated by outfront. One could only speculate from a tear down that the reduced wear was from less sleeve movement and only draw a strong correlation, but it would be enough for me if the costs were reasonable and the machining consistent.

S&R quoted me 2500 for a bare block fitted with their deck inserts. Just FYI
First we want to thanks Crystal for showing and testing our newest design block inserts. There is no doubt that there is a market for a stronger stock block rather than having the expense and failure of sleeved blocks. We feel this block will (without abuse such as poor tuning, boost spikes) survive in the 35psi range. also one of the biggest benifits of the block is to have an "undropoable" deck surface, cheaper costs over sleeving, and fits the bill for the guy who wants extra insurance for a 500 HP DD.

Our new sTi bare blocks with our closed deck is only $1900 and in stock. We can also perform this to your stock used block with a little time delay. This new design also works for both early and late HG designs covering the dual and quad AVCS head cooling passages.

Irv, i will comment on all of your post tomorrow with some pics to debunk your myths.

John

Last edited by outfrontmotorsports; 10-29-2012 at 07:44 PM.
outfrontmotorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 07:20 PM   #24
outfrontmotorsports
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 220204
Join Date: Aug 2009
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Buena Park, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav View Post
Not meant to be destructive testing. The block will see the same abuse my current block sees. The idea will be to run the block at 30-32psi and to put some daily driving miles on it, hopefully run it at the track a few times when it reopens, then tear it down and see how it looks. If it truly works, we should see no cracks, less engine wear, same/good cooling, etc. JC supposedly got the sleeves to crack at around 32psi so it should be interesting to see what happens around that power level.
This is true, our previous design was good to 30psi, we acknowledge the limitations of our first design. JC and I know for a fact that JC could not have pushed a stock sTi block to the HP levels he attained with our first design. He is now using a sleeved block, when he is done testing/proving that, we will offer him our new block too to beat the crap out of on the track

John

Last edited by outfrontmotorsports; 10-29-2012 at 07:45 PM.
outfrontmotorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2012, 09:00 PM   #25
k mier
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 98000
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: MO
Vehicle:
05 sti e85@420hp

Default

This is very interesting. Way too many variables to, "prove", anything but very interesting. Hopefully this doesn't turn into a witch hunt, stays to the point and informative.

YMMV
k mier is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.