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Old 10-29-2012, 11:09 PM   #26
sense of nature
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So could this be done to a sleeved block as well?
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Old 10-29-2012, 11:16 PM   #27
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that sounds to me to be a completly different machined insert for each different sleeve, so most likely no.

& what they were saying was this should hold up evenly with a sleeved block, so theres no need for sleeves

this new insert looks alot more filled in now, close to this full billet shortblock

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2310098
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Old 10-30-2012, 12:29 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Irv Weissmanhowerton View Post
that sounds to me to be a completly different machined insert for each different sleeve, so most likely no.

& what they were saying was this should hold up evenly with a sleeved block, so theres no need for sleeves

this new insert looks alot more filled in now, close to this full billet shortblock

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2310098
This is correct, to sleeve the block after the close decking would be a waste. The sleeved units really have no issue with deflection of the cylinder walls, they just sink, where as the closed deck blocks can't drop, but could crack a liner. So here we are. If we can optimize/improve the stock unit by closing the deck and it holds, it is the cleanest, fastest, smartest and cheapest way to raise HP levels in your engine.

Last edited by outfrontmotorsports; 10-30-2012 at 09:25 AM.
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Old 10-30-2012, 12:48 AM   #29
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Just to be clear, Outfront is offering no perks or parts to do this so called testing. The only reason I would even consider doing it is because I have little to no commitment in the whole deal. Manley is supplying the pistons, Outfront the block and misc gaskets, and I am supplying a crank, rods, misc gaskets, and labor. If it fails it fails then the nasioc world will know about it. If it does what it is supposed to do, I have the option to purchase the block or give it back so I have no obligations to Outfront on this.

As far as sleeving, yes sleeves can drop but IMO a bigger problem is also the align hone. The block can/will distort enough that only a very good machine shop can fix it to the point that your oil pump and main seal will still fit ok. Now if the sleeves drop more, and therefore distort the mains more that you need to re-align hone and therefore redeck the cases and hone mains, you may end up with a block that needs extensive modifications for the oil pump to fit and oil seal to fit. FWIW every time you correctly align hone your looking at about .006" taken from the cases. Surprisingly I measured the mains on this case and they are the same a stock. A little here and there but nothing out of the ordinary.
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Old 10-30-2012, 12:53 AM   #30
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+1 to this
I made this a big deal before I accepted the test. I'll post up tomorrow my conversations with OF on this to the point they left the block on the hone with plates still on it for me to measure with my own tools.

As far as everything else, unless someone is going to pay for the dyno time, that won't be happening. I will run the same calibration I have been on for over 2 years. As far as posting the calibration, I don't think so. I'll post some logs on boost, timing, and fuel but posting the actual calibration, thats not happening...
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Old 10-30-2012, 01:21 AM   #31
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If the plate adds stability to the sleeves thus reducing wear, then it might have merit other than the ones stated by outfront. One could only speculate from a tear down that the reduced wear was from less sleeve movement and only draw a strong correlation, but it would be enough for me if the costs were reasonable and the machining consistent.

S&R quoted me 2500 for a bare block fitted with their deck inserts. Just FYI
I hope that quote was for a "new block" Our previous post states our price is $1900--that is for a new block & the closed deck process.

We also offer the service only to your block for $800. We must process 10 blocks at a time for this price so it could be a few weeks. We also offer an expedited process for and additional fee.

Last edited by outfrontmotorsports; 10-30-2012 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 10-30-2012, 01:27 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav View Post
Just to be clear, Outfront is offering no perks or parts to do this so called testing. The only reason I would even consider doing it is because I have little to no commitment in the whole deal. Manley is supplying the pistons, Outfront the block and misc gaskets, and I am supplying a crank, rods, misc gaskets, and labor. If it fails it fails then the nasioc world will know about it. If it does what it is supposed to do, I have the option to purchase the block or give it back so I have no obligations to Outfront on this.

As far as sleeving, yes sleeves can drop but IMO a bigger problem is also the align hone. The block can/will distort enough that only a very good machine shop can fix it to the point that your oil pump and main seal will still fit ok. Now if the sleeves drop more, and therefore distort the mains more that you need to re-align hone and therefore redeck the cases and hone mains, you may end up with a block that needs extensive modifications for the oil pump to fit and oil seal to fit. FWIW every time you correctly align hone your looking at about .006" taken from the cases. Surprisingly I measured the mains on this case and they are the same a stock. A little here and there but nothing out of the ordinary.
I also strongly agree to this statement ^^^^^. We had tried sleeving a long time ago and thought we could put in a sleeve better than anyone, we not only warmed the block, froze the sleeve and green locktighted all at once. We pressed them in i think at nearly 10 tons, and left the block half in the press to dry--they still dropped, but Crystal is right, the block could literally be deformed during this process.

The manner and method in which we install our inserts is impossible to distort the mains, as can be noted by Crystals' findings.


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Old 11-08-2012, 12:50 PM   #33
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How was distortion with the reinforcements?
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Old 11-08-2012, 02:36 PM   #34
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I have only had time to do some minor prep work on it. I have checked the mains and they are in fact still round so that is a good thing. The bores are pretty round w/o plates on them right now, and hopefully I can do come measurements with the plates on them later today before I finish hone.
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Old 11-09-2012, 02:05 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav View Post
I have only had time to do some minor prep work on it. I have checked the mains and they are in fact still round so that is a good thing. The bores are pretty round w/o plates on them right now, and hopefully I can do come measurements with the plates on them later today before I finish hone.
Nice to see yo working with these guys on this to help them out. This stuff is what really is gonna help the community not just taking peoples money and running!

Was this a stock OEM block? or was this a used block? Just wondering why the cylinder is normal with out the plates.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:29 AM   #36
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It was a used block. When the plates are pressed in, they apparently distort the cylinders enough that you have to rehone the block to the next size piston in my case 99.75 in order to get the cylinder straight and round again. They had left the block with torque plates on the hone when I picked it up so I could check it and had it within .0004" all the way around.

I got caught up on another motor last night so I didn't have time to mess with this one but I should have at least a little time this weekend to play with it.
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Old 11-09-2012, 05:57 PM   #37
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So a new block that received this process still needs to be bored larger or just a hone?
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Old 11-09-2012, 08:32 PM   #38
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I have yet to see a set of MID sleeves drop, Are you referring to individual sleeves ? I have seen those drop often
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Old 11-09-2012, 09:40 PM   #39
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I have yet to see a set of MID sleeves drop, Are you referring to individual sleeves ? I have seen those drop often

2400 miles daily driving so far they are good. I would like to re tq my heads though.

And you can Pin Sleeves along with mains Look at Jr's sleeved block and mine.


Rigoli pin's stock blocks he seem's to make it work.

Crystal was the top of the liner shaved where the insert was placed? In the one picture it look's like about .001 was removed to step the insert in place.

I wonder if they can make the sleeves all connect some how or at least 2 that would be a NICE sleeve!
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:02 PM   #40
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Hey spool, who did you and jr's sleeves?
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Old 11-11-2012, 11:48 PM   #41
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Ok here is the first bit of good info. So the block looks like it distorts about a max of .0008" with the torque plate on. Much better then the previous results I had with no inserts which had a max variation of about .002-.003" all test done at 100 ft/lbs on the head studs.

Here are some pics. All test on cylinder #3. Will finish testing on remaining cylinders tomorrow. Gauge was set at my desired diameter requested from Outfront 99.75

X-Axis top no plate: .0008"


X-Axis top with plate: .0000"


Max Variation .0008"

X-Axis bottom no plate: .0004"


X-Axis bottom with plate: .0002"


Max variation X-Bottom .0002"

Y-Axis top no plate: .0004"


Y-Axis top with plate: .0004"


Max variation Y-Axis top: .0000"

Y-Axis bottom no plate: -.0001"


Y-Axis bottom with plate: .0000"


Max variation Y-Axis bottom: .0002"

So far it looks like the plate are helping to control distortion on the cylinders. More info to come as I have more time to dig into it.
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:20 PM   #42
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Hey spool, who did you and jr's sleeves?
Tony at turbo trix but he is retired from what I herd. Benson is your next best option IMO. Granted there may also be others.


C.I. idk if you seen the process done when they cnc the block for these insert's but maybe you can bring to their attention to try and avoid any cnc in the area where the cylinder walls are notched for the case bolt's I noticed this is where they like to crack. Don't forget the integrity of the cylinder is most important at the top of the bore that's where the magic happens!

Granted my stock block didn't crack at 35psi I could just have been lucky or that and Jr's tune was just amazingly safe. I cracked every ring land but the piston that had skirt damage. that one had intact ring lands surprisingly!

Witch probably only happened because the day I was at island dragway I was to impatient for the C16 to make it threw the system

Last edited by spoolinsti05; 11-12-2012 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:35 PM   #43
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Thanks! If i go with sleeves im pretty sure it will be bensons.
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:56 PM   #44
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benson is who maxwell power uses, from what I hear he gaurentee's his work never to drop, and when I called him, he mentioned it would be 1700 (sending in your case) for it installed with his own sleeves, all line honed and normal sleeve install check stuff, with this done as long as the case's journals are in pretty good condition, no need for a new case

comparing prices to maxwell powers old group buy threads and just there difference in pricing on mps price sheet, 1700 is a little pricey and hopefully could come down a bit
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Old 11-12-2012, 01:36 PM   #45
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Sub'd to see how it does. Currently been emailing back and forth with Outfront about having them build me a daily driven 500whp shortblock. My concern is how much of their closed deck process is proven versus marketing tactic.

What makes a good candidate block for the closed deck process? Are cracked cylinder walls only good for sleeving?
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Old 11-12-2012, 02:28 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav
Ok here is the first bit of good info. So the block looks like it distorts about a max of .0008" with the torque plate on. Much better then the previous results I had with no inserts which had a max variation of about .002-.003" all test done at 100 ft/lbs on the head studs.

Here are some pics. All test on cylinder #3. Will finish testing on remaining cylinders tomorrow. Gauge was set at my desired diameter requested from Outfront 99.75

X-Axis top no plate: .0008"

X-Axis top with plate: .0000"

Max Variation .0008"

X-Axis bottom no plate: .0004"

X-Axis bottom with plate: .0002"

Max variation X-Bottom .0002"

Y-Axis top no plate: .0004"

Y-Axis top with plate: .0004"

Max variation Y-Axis top: .0000"

Y-Axis bottom no plate: -.0001"

Y-Axis bottom with plate: .0000"

Max variation Y-Axis bottom: .0002"

So far it looks like the plate are helping to control distortion on the cylinders. More info to come as I have more time to dig into it.
This is good to know. This at least is some data that we can chew on. Now the question is whether sleeves crack because of this flex (without press ins) or some other factor, but at least now we know the inserts are preventing movement. It's hard to say if this happens at temps, but at least we have data.

Would less distortion allow for a tighter or looser ring seal?
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Old 11-12-2012, 02:46 PM   #47
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So less distortion would lead to a more true cylinder and potentially tighter ring seal. More true of a ring seal at the least anyway.

The big issue is how much the insert moves the sleeves in the first place. If they get repositioned even slightly that's alot of extra stress.
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:10 PM   #48
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comparing prices to maxwell powers old group buy threads and just there difference in pricing on mps price sheet, 1700 is a little pricey and hopefully could come down a bit
won't ever happen.

What people don't realize is that we do the mains, sleeves, bore and hone for that price. Also, our new sleeve design is a custom design that addresses many of the issues with old sleeve design and you can only get that from us and Benson. When Darton sleeves a block, they don't do a bore/hone to your pistons specs. On top of that, the quality of the work sucks.

I'm waiting to hear the results of the reinforced case study... With the new 704s coming up short in the strength department, I'd like to see if this is a viable solution.

Is this block a reinforced 704?
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:03 PM   #49
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won't ever happen.

What people don't realize is that we do the mains, sleeves, bore and hone for that price. Also, our new sleeve design is a custom design that addresses many of the issues with old sleeve design and you can only get that from us and Benson. When Darton sleeves a block, they don't do a bore/hone to your pistons specs. On top of that, the quality of the work sucks.

I'm waiting to hear the results of the reinforced case study... With the new 704s coming up short in the strength department, I'd like to see if this is a viable solution.

Is this block a reinforced 704?


1700 is a good price! How much would it be with internals included?say you used your crank over?

what's better boring and honing to the piston spec or buying custom pistons to match your bore?
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:12 PM   #50
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When Darton sleeves a block, they don't do a bore/hone to your pistons specs. On top of that, the quality of the work sucks.

I'm waiting to hear the results of the reinforced case study... With the new 704s coming up short in the strength department, I'd like to see if this is a viable solution.

Is this block a reinforced 704?
East or west?

Justice does all of our sleeve work and has always been top notch. Pistons are matched to cylinder and the quality has been great. All for around the same price as Benson.
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