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Old 11-13-2012, 10:49 AM   #51
Maxwell Power
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewayz

East or west?

Justice does all of our sleeve work and has always been top notch. Pistons are matched to cylinder and the quality has been great. All for around the same price as Benson.
West.

We are getting off track. This isn't my thread. Please pm me if you need answers or start another thread of you want a more in depth discussion about the quality we saw from darton.
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:48 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
won't ever happen.

What people don't realize is that we do the mains, sleeves, bore and hone for that price. Also, our new sleeve design is a custom design that addresses many of the issues with old sleeve design and you can only get that from us and Benson. When Darton sleeves a block, they don't do a bore/hone to your pistons specs. On top of that, the quality of the work sucks.

I'm waiting to hear the results of the reinforced case study... With the new 704s coming up short in the strength department, I'd like to see if this is a viable solution.

Is this block a reinforced 704?
This is a 702 casting. Maybe I can ask them to swap it for a 704 if they have any but I doubt it.

Tonight, I am going to heat the block up to around 150-180* and see if the inserts cause bad distortion due to different expansion rates.
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:21 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav View Post
This is a 702 casting. Maybe I can ask them to swap it for a 704 if they have any but I doubt it.

Tonight, I am going to heat the block up to around 150-180* and see if the inserts cause bad distortion due to different expansion rates.
Wow that's important info. Thanks Dom for catching that.
I don't think that's necessary at this point to swap castings, as it's not as though you're stating a hypothesis and only listing data relating to your conclusion, like no it did not crack the sleeve or yes it did. It would have been ideal for it to be a 704 though. Since you're posting all of the data that you're collecting the reader can pretty much draw his/her own conclusion as long as you continue to post all of it. It would be different if your test only included data like the sleeves werent cracked before the test and they are or are not after.
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:22 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav View Post
This is a 702 casting. Maybe I can ask them to swap it for a 704 if they have any but I doubt it.

Tonight, I am going to heat the block up to around 150-180* and see if the inserts cause bad distortion due to different expansion rates.
are you also going to heat up the cylinder's to normal operating temp? what's that like 800-1800*
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:17 PM   #55
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If cylinder temps were that high then 2618 pistons would melt right out of them.
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Old 11-13-2012, 08:10 PM   #56
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Quote:
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If cylinder temps were that high then 2618 pistons would melt right out of them.

Well I'm sure they are higher then 180* if normal exhaust gas temp is 800-1600ish No? Am I misunderstanding something here? Would cylinder pressure effect the test also?
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Old 11-13-2012, 08:27 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spoolinsti05 View Post
Well I'm sure they are higher then 180* if normal exhaust gas temp is 800-1600ish No? Am I misunderstanding something here? Would cylinder pressure effect the test also?
Really depends what the OP is testing. Deflection caused by the closed deck process? Deflection caused by thermal expansion with closed deck? Increased cylinder pressure threshold? Greater heat tolerance? All little points down the road of HORSEPOWER!! Cylinder pressure makes hp and that is fact. We just up the anty with boost on top More air, more fuel, more boom in the bore.

But no, EGT is not the same as cylinder temps. And when you start talking about cylinder temps you have to be more specific as to WHERE and how long that temp is sustained. Generally, coolant temp between the engine and radiator is what temp the block actually is. Inside the cylinder yes, it gets really hot. But you cannot drop the block into a giant vat at temps that aren't real either.

Combustion makes heat. Added fuel, coolant, oil, and air flow remove heat. Exhaust gas is really hot because it just exploded and is nearly instantly pushed out where your EGT sensor is. So when EGT hits 1600*F that's just the EGT. If those gases were retained then yes the motor would soon weld itself into a coffee table. Sorry to get elementary on you, just a friendly reminder not to out think yourself
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Old 11-13-2012, 08:31 PM   #58
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Just thinking out loud. YMMV

Water temp should be around 190, oil temp just above that. So...wouldn't most of the heat going into the block be coming from the cylinders and heads? Would it be more telling to heat up the block by heating the cylinders? Could careful use of a torch be used to repeatedly heat cycle them to near combustion temps?
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:10 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k mier View Post
Just thinking out loud. YMMV

Water temp should be around 190, oil temp just above that. So...wouldn't most of the heat going into the block be coming from the cylinders and heads? Would it be more telling to heat up the block by heating the cylinders? Could careful use of a torch be used to repeatedly heat cycle them to near combustion temps?
Yes but honestly best bet is to just run it in the car and pull the block back out then check the deck with a flat edge feeler gauge
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:21 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imma_stocker View Post
Really depends what the OP is testing. Deflection caused by the closed deck process? Deflection caused by thermal expansion with closed deck? Increased cylinder pressure threshold? Greater heat tolerance? All little points down the road of HORSEPOWER!! Cylinder pressure makes hp and that is fact. We just up the anty with boost on top More air, more fuel, more boom in the bore.

But no, EGT is not the same as cylinder temps. And when you start talking about cylinder temps you have to be more specific as to WHERE and how long that temp is sustained. Generally, coolant temp between the engine and radiator is what temp the block actually is. Inside the cylinder yes, it gets really hot. But you cannot drop the block into a giant vat at temps that aren't real either.

Combustion makes heat. Added fuel, coolant, oil, and air flow remove heat. Exhaust gas is really hot because it just exploded and is nearly instantly pushed out where your EGT sensor is. So when EGT hits 1600*F that's just the EGT. If those gases were retained then yes the motor would soon weld itself into a coffee table. Sorry to get elementary on you, just a friendly reminder not to out think yourself
This is all fact. And your right combustion makes heat along with back pressure might I add. Remove the combustion at the right time with the right fuel under the right conditions and you have less heat during combustion. happier engine!

Just trying to see how one can call good or bad without putting it into the car and removing it to check clearances say after about 5k-10k miles of normal/hard driving. If there is no issue the deck will maintain a flat surface in all area's!
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:00 AM   #61
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I think that is the plan. Inspect and physically blueprint with calipers. Then install for same abuse his last motor had. After some time it will be pulled and completely torn down for same inspection and blueprinting, as comparative.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that's the OP's plan.
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:47 AM   #62
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Assume heating the block with torque plates installed? Have you done this on an un-modified/open deck block so you have something to compare results against? Im interested to see if it actually swells the fire deck area with the insert that you would notice the difference compared to open deck at the top of the cylinder? Please stay motivated about doing this and generally sharing knowledge with the community it is much appreciated.
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:19 AM   #63
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I am trying to replicate coolant temps, not egt's as stated above. I did a quick test last night with the torque plates still on and to my surprise, everything grew proportionaly. I'll have to do a more in-depth test (only got it up to 100*) but the cylinder was actually rounder once warm.
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:56 AM   #64
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Boil some hot water.
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:00 PM   #65
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Really, we should be reverse engineering what the oem block does. CI should try this on an oem block and see why it's made the way it is. If you catch my drift...
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:04 PM   #66
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I'll try the same on a used stock case and also a big bore sleeved case when I have some free time.
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:19 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav View Post
I'll try the same on a used stock case and also a big bore sleeved case when I have some free time.
I like where this is going
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:13 PM   #68
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The inserted plate only supports the liner over the thickness of the plate... (which isn't enough!)
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:24 PM   #69
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It supports it over the length of the plate and also effectively shortens the height of the tube that can flex. A shorter tube flexes less. So it is actually helping a little more than just the top. Also the top is where cylinder pressure is most likely to cause a problem. Whether it is enough or not depends on the application. For many, the support plate isn't needed and would be an extra protection thus being enough.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:52 PM   #70
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For the many people the support plate isn't needed, it makes no difference... The future will show whether it helps to avoid cracking of the liner at HIGH cilinder pressure.
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Old 11-17-2012, 03:38 PM   #71
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Pretty much. I think sleeving is a viable option. I know element seems to think otherwise but GST seems to have success with it. So do many other people. One friend of mine has had to take heads off and on 3 times over a few years for various reasons, wrong cams, broken timing belt pulley etc and his sleeved bottom end has been fine that whole time.
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:05 AM   #72
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bump for any updates?
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:26 PM   #73
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I've finished honed the cylinders and prepped it for assembly. I need to get another set of rods for this build or disassemble one of my older motors with Manley h-beams in it but I am not sure if I want to do that yet. Trying to hold out for the new Manley rods coming out.

As far as testing the other blocks, I will do that after I have this engine at least assembled. Right now I am spending too much time just running test instead of actually getting it running like I should be concentrating on and put it to work.
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:49 PM   #74
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Have you run the BC I beams? Just curious. That's what I went with for mine.
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:05 PM   #75
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I may have missed it but what has Manley change in the "new" rod design
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