Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Monday September 15, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > News & Rumors > Non-Subaru News & Rumors

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-05-2013, 07:57 PM   #226
SCRAPPYDO
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 873
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Just outside of Houston TX
Vehicle:
2013 F150 King Ranch
Datsun 71 240Z & 68 2000

Default

I am saying the GTR is not fun soley because of Egear. It is fun because it has a but load of HP, with a great chassis, and great AWD system. The Fun comes from many many things.

What I am saying is that given the same car, with modest power, would an automatic transmission be more fun than a manual? Given a base model impreza would a CVT with sport shift be more fun or less than a manual?

What I am saying is ANYTHING could be fun with 500+ HP. Transmission does not make or break the fun bank. It is almost irrelevant. It will be FAST all the time.

My question is would a GTR transmission make a Versa better or worse? Hypothetically speaking of course.

Do not give the Egear all the credit for the fun that can be had in the GTR. It is just one small part.

If you cannot understand that, I am sorry.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
SCRAPPYDO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2013, 09:00 PM   #227
4wdwrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 72042
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Sunshine
Vehicle:
2002 WRX impreza
WRB "Blue Mammoth"

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
I am saying the GTR is not fun soley because of Egear. It is fun because it has a but load of HP, with a great chassis, and great AWD system. The Fun comes from many many things.

What I am saying is that given the same car, with modest power, would an automatic transmission be more fun than a manual? Given a base model impreza would a CVT with sport shift be more fun or less than a manual?

What I am saying is ANYTHING could be fun with 500+ HP. Transmission does not make or break the fun bank. It is almost irrelevant. It will be FAST all the time.

My question is would a GTR transmission make a Versa better or worse? Hypothetically speaking of course.

Do not give the Egear all the credit for the fun that can be had in the GTR. It is just one small part.

If you cannot understand that, I am sorry.
ahh... I see what you trying to do here... trying to push the DCT aside and bring down its credibility.

A manual in a GTR would probably take a bit away from the experience of the GTR. Mizuno San designed it from the ground up using the advanced transaxle in mind.

A design with manual and auto options have many compromises. Mizuno San's vision was to build a car with the highest driving experience possible within their budget and constraints. It's transmission is part of the whole experience.
4wdwrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2013, 11:22 PM   #228
SCRAPPYDO
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 873
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Just outside of Houston TX
Vehicle:
2013 F150 King Ranch
Datsun 71 240Z & 68 2000

Default

highest driving experience..


yeah, define that for me. Hint: you cannot use the phrase most involving...
SCRAPPYDO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2013, 08:24 AM   #229
SWP n Gold
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 110783
Join Date: Mar 2006
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Stamford, CT
Vehicle:
2010 WRX
Satin White Pearl

Default

I guess it's pretty clear that the point of the GTR was to go as fast as possible and that happens with its current transmission. Would it be slightly slower with a manual? Yes. But I would definitely rather have it with a manual than what it has now. It's really all about "do you want to go as fast as possible", which means sacrificing the novelty of a manual transmission. Some people will say yes, some no; I would rather a manual.
SWP n Gold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2013, 10:45 AM   #230
SCRAPPYDO
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 873
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Just outside of Houston TX
Vehicle:
2013 F150 King Ranch
Datsun 71 240Z & 68 2000

Default

Exactly, depends what the mission of the car is. Sadly more people are obsessed with magazine numbers than anything else. Thus cars like the GTR and new PDK GT3 exist. Uber low launch control produced 0-60 times sell cars.
SCRAPPYDO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2013, 10:53 AM   #231
4wdwrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 72042
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Sunshine
Vehicle:
2002 WRX impreza
WRB "Blue Mammoth"

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
highest driving experience..


yeah, define that for me. Hint: you cannot use the phrase most involving...
It will include most involving. It was designed for the engine, chassis, transmission, comfort to all work in harmony to create the best driving experience the Mizuno San visioned.

Like the BRZ, that car was designed with another vision, while also do deliver the best driving experience, with another approach and with even greater budget and engineering constraints.

Can't have peanut butter and jelly with out jelly, frosted flakes without milk just not the same.
4wdwrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2013, 12:35 PM   #232
SCRAPPYDO
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 873
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Just outside of Houston TX
Vehicle:
2013 F150 King Ranch
Datsun 71 240Z & 68 2000

Default

I would disagree totally.

You can build a car for pure all out speed and not worry too much about interaction.

THe GTR is a perfect example. Its function is to be the fastest car everywhere. By not including a manual you have removed 33% of the involvement of the cars connection between the driver.

saying it includes the most involving is what YOU want the definition to be. But in reality the connection a manual transmission came at too much of a cost to all out speed. The GTR was build for PACE and SPEED. Nothing wrong with that. It has made the car a legend.

But most reviewers I recall say it is like playing a video game, albeit a very good one!

I would LOVE To drive a GTR. I would like to see what that kind of pace feels like. I wager when I felt the thrust of 550+ HP I would be smiling.
SCRAPPYDO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2013, 12:43 PM   #233
mhoward1
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 9481
Join Date: Aug 2001
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: FFR Challenge #43
Vehicle:
2011 Carrera 4s
2009 BMW M5

Default

Scrappy, come east and I'll put you in a 600+ hp one.

One of the things I don't like about the GT-R is it won't let you make a mistake...unless you REALLY screw up. You can do just about everything wrong and it will actually correct you and still come out fast.

I must be a but sick, because I seem to have a thing for cars that have no issues in hurting you if you do something stupid.
mhoward1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2013, 04:17 PM   #234
4wdwrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 72042
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Sunshine
Vehicle:
2002 WRX impreza
WRB "Blue Mammoth"

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
I would disagree totally.

You can build a car for pure all out speed and not worry too much about interaction.

THe GTR is a perfect example. Its function is to be the fastest car everywhere. By not including a manual you have removed 33% of the involvement of the cars connection between the driver.

saying it includes the most involving is what YOU want the definition to be. But in reality the connection a manual transmission came at too much of a cost to all out speed. The GTR was build for PACE and SPEED. Nothing wrong with that. It has made the car a legend.

But most reviewers I recall say it is like playing a video game, albeit a very good one!

I would LOVE To drive a GTR. I would like to see what that kind of pace feels like. I wager when I felt the thrust of 550+ HP I would be smiling.
It is not my definition but the definition for the GTR's design philosophy.

Involvement does not have to be solely physical. If involvement is just about physical interaction, mind as well just ride a bike to get the most out of it.

The transmission does not take away from the involvement. You might not use your left foot or move your right arm, but the involvement in making the decision to shift with your hands and anticipating how the system will behave-- is the involvement. Involvement is not taken away but altered.
4wdwrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2013, 06:13 PM   #235
heavyD
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 194216
Join Date: Nov 2008
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Vehicle:
2013 STI Sport-tech

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Exactly, depends what the mission of the car is. Sadly more people are obsessed with magazine numbers than anything else. Thus cars like the GTR and new PDK GT3 exist. Uber low launch control produced 0-60 times sell cars.
You have to come to terms with that fact that it's what buyers want. Porsche, Ferrari, etc customers overwhelmingly purchase the autos. You can't fault automakers for catering to their audience. As for the GTR given it's power and AWD I imagine there there would be a long line of owners with broken manual transmissions aggressively launching these cars. One nice thing about DSG's is that you can program launches to be controlled by the car rather than have amateurs aggressively dropping clutches and stressing out the drivetrain.

I realize you and others just love your manual transmissions but some of you really need to get a grip and accept you are a very small minority.
heavyD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 08:58 AM   #236
SCRAPPYDO
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 873
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Just outside of Houston TX
Vehicle:
2013 F150 King Ranch
Datsun 71 240Z & 68 2000

Default

Heavy, I totally get it that I am in the minority, and I also totally accept that one day I will not have a choice to buy a manual. You bring to light something very insightful in your post as well I want to highlight. Driving a DSG is putting the Car manufacturer in complete control. That is another reason they want to shift to DSG style transmissions. It is taking the user out of the equation when it comes to how gears shift which allows them to control the wear and loads. THAT IS NOT trivial.

I understand it is what buyers want as well Heavy. But what gets me is why. American is filled with people that want to always take the easy way out these days. They want hand outs, they want cars to do all the thinking for them, they want to everything made easy for them. It takes more skill and dexterity to drive a manual transmission car.

4wdwrx, you are reaching really hard to convince yourself that flicking a finger is more involving than moving all four of your appendages in harmony. Involvement is reduced. You still have to make all the decisions with a manual that you do with a DSG, lets compare...

With a manual you have to know when and HOW to press the clutch, you have to feel it disengage and you have to time your gear selection with it. THen you must select which gear you want and if you want to do it well you have to get back on the gas to match the correct amount of revs for the speed you are going, then you must let out the clutch smoothly.

Or, with a DSG,

You flick a finger while keeping the pedal mashed.

No matter how you slice it the DSG takes away a connection and involvement. Just admit it and move on. It is the price you pay for all out pace. You give up feel and control and trust the computer to do it all for you. For lap times, that is unbeatable. DSG makes for great magazine numbers, and any moron with a checkbook can drive it. That equals PROFIT.

Do you really think car companies care about involvement when they can

1) Appeal to a broader and arguably less skilled driver pool
2) Control the stress levels in the transmission on every single shift, as HeavyD pointed out that is a HUGE advantage!

The answer is no, they do not care. And people like me who still appreciate a raw driving experience and feeling the road and the car work will be on the short end of the stick. WE will lose this, 'save the manuals' battle. We have already lost actually.

People like me will end up with a DSG car one day, but we are also clever enough to keep an old classic around to remind us what the joys of driving are really like when the driver, and not a computer made every single decision.
SCRAPPYDO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 09:06 AM   #237
SCRAPPYDO
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 873
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Just outside of Houston TX
Vehicle:
2013 F150 King Ranch
Datsun 71 240Z & 68 2000

Default

EDIT:

I am not really mad at this anymore, I have come to accept it as the way things are going. The population as a whole is not geared toward enthusiast driving in any way. Most have accepted computers taking a larger and larger bit of control of their lives. Which is a sign of the times, and cannot be reversed. I get that.

Some say my Golf R in Europe spec is a better car with the DSG. It certainly put up better numbers than the manual I have, but not surprisingly, I would disagree.

I know you guys tire endlessly of me ranting about my love of manuals, and I want to offer a sincere thanks for putting up with me. This is not my forum and I do more than my share of polluting it, so thanks for giving me an outlet to express my, old timer opinions.

Having said that, I just rejetted my Datsun 240Z's triple weber CARBURETORS last night and now I am going to take a morning drive and burn up some dead dinos.
SCRAPPYDO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 10:28 AM   #238
4wdwrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 72042
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Sunshine
Vehicle:
2002 WRX impreza
WRB "Blue Mammoth"

Default

Don't get me wrong, I like manuals and thinking of picking up a Evo X GSR to complement or replace my bugeye.

DSG shifts the focus of pressing the clutch and moving the arm to how the transmission will react and anticipation on how it will effect the car. Different strategy.

I know you have to focus on clutch timing and shift level timing. I left that out knowing you will reiterate. Yes, like I was saying, the process of engagement is not lost but shifted to a different entity. Kind of like the conservation of energy principle.

Highest driving experience is not limited to the transmission type. It doesn't matter if you have a pensil or a keyboard, it's engaging in developing your paper/story/ novel is the main focus.
4wdwrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 11:23 AM   #239
chanomatik
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 159474
Join Date: Sep 2007
Chapter/Region: AKIC
Location: Anchorage (...for now...)
Vehicle:
2013 BRZ Ltd 6MT CBS
SNOSLO

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
EDIT:

I am not really mad at this anymore, I have come to accept it as the way things are going. The population as a whole is not geared toward enthusiast driving in any way. Most have accepted computers taking a larger and larger bit of control of their lives. Which is a sign of the times, and cannot be reversed. I get that.

Some say my Golf R in Europe spec is a better car with the DSG. It certainly put up better numbers than the manual I have, but not surprisingly, I would disagree.

I know you guys tire endlessly of me ranting about my love of manuals, and I want to offer a sincere thanks for putting up with me. This is not my forum and I do more than my share of polluting it, so thanks for giving me an outlet to express my, old timer opinions.

Having said that, I just rejetted my Datsun 240Z's triple weber CARBURETORS last night and now I am going to take a morning drive and burn up some dead dinos.
Your carburetors: I hate them.
chanomatik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 11:44 AM   #240
SCRAPPYDO
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 873
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Just outside of Houston TX
Vehicle:
2013 F150 King Ranch
Datsun 71 240Z & 68 2000

Default

Please tel me why sir? Seriously, I think they are by far the easiest and most fun carb to tune I have ever had the pleasure of using...and I have learned to run a GREAT MANY of carbs.
SCRAPPYDO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 04:29 PM   #241
White out
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 46277
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Michigan
Vehicle:
** Ring Time of
7:43.5

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
I understand it is what buyers want as well Heavy. But what gets me is why. American is filled with people that want to always take the easy way out these days. They want hand outs, they want cars to do all the thinking for them, they want to everything made easy for them. It takes more skill and dexterity to drive a manual transmission car.
Coincidentally, the American track oriented sports cars are only offered with Manual transmissions.
White out is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 05:32 PM   #242
DeeezNuuuts83
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 34406
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Southern California
Vehicle:
2006 Evolution IX
graphite gray

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by White out View Post
Coincidentally, the American track oriented sports cars are only offered with Manual transmissions.
But a lot of them don't offer anything else either beyond a stick (i.e. Z06, ZR1, Viper), so it's not like they saved the manual for the enthusiast variant of some model. For whatever reason, a lot of those may not even have a DCT anyway, whether it's because they want to keep the sticker price low by having a simpler, less expensive transmission (rather than having to fund the development of a new one) or if the cars are just so torquey to begin with that existing DCTs within their reach may not be able to handle that quantity of twisting force over such a broad rpm range.
DeeezNuuuts83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 06:12 PM   #243
heavyD
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 194216
Join Date: Nov 2008
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Vehicle:
2013 STI Sport-tech

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by White out View Post
Coincidentally, the American track oriented sports cars are only offered with Manual transmissions.
It's a money thing. A DCT that can handle the torque of a Corvette or GT500 engine is going to push the price of those cars into German Sports car territories. Part of the allure of the American cars is that they offer top performance for less money.
heavyD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 06:49 PM   #244
4wdwrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 72042
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Sunshine
Vehicle:
2002 WRX impreza
WRB "Blue Mammoth"

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
It's a money thing. A DCT that can handle the torque of a Corvette or GT500 engine is going to push the price of those cars into German Sports car territories. Part of the allure of the American cars is that they offer top performance for less money.
Not really if they decided to do R&D. They brought carbon fiber body panels to every Corvette C7.
4wdwrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 06:53 PM   #245
DeeezNuuuts83
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 34406
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Southern California
Vehicle:
2006 Evolution IX
graphite gray

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4wdwrx View Post
Not really if they decided to do R&D. They brought carbon fiber body panels to every Corvette C7.
I think that R&D on a DCT is going to be a lot more than R&D to make carbon fiber body panels. Not quite the same level of commitment.
DeeezNuuuts83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 06:56 PM   #246
4wdwrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 72042
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Sunshine
Vehicle:
2002 WRX impreza
WRB "Blue Mammoth"

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeezNuuuts83 View Post
I think that R&D on a DCT is going to be a lot more than R&D to make carbon fiber body panels. Not quite the same level of commitment.
Many cars have DCT not many have carbon fiber. Material science is much more complicated than mechanicals.
4wdwrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 07:03 PM   #247
DeeezNuuuts83
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 34406
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Southern California
Vehicle:
2006 Evolution IX
graphite gray

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4wdwrx View Post
Many cars have DCT not many have carbon fiber
But that doesn't mean that DCT is easier to produce. It just means that the added cost of getting a DCT in that car is within reason and will likely be paid by the target market to get that option, while a car going with carbon fiber panels may increase the price outside of what is within reason, or at least to the point where any benefit is negligible and not really worth the extra coin.

For example, when Mitsubishi added the TC-SST to the Evo X MR, it came at a cost that people seemed to be willing to pay, since people did buy it. The premium over the manual wasn't too bad. But if they had a carbon fiber bodied Evo, it's not going to be cheap. Same thing with ceramic rotors. They make sense on higher-end sports cars like Porsches, but you're not going to see them on a Scion FR-S or Subaru BRZ, even if it would have a benefit.
DeeezNuuuts83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 07:15 PM   #248
4wdwrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 72042
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Sunshine
Vehicle:
2002 WRX impreza
WRB "Blue Mammoth"

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeezNuuuts83 View Post
But that doesn't mean that DCT is easier to produce. It just means that the added cost of getting a DCT in that car is within reason and will likely be paid by the target market to get that option, while a car going with carbon fiber panels may increase the price outside of what is within reason, or at least to the point where any benefit is negligible and not really worth the extra coin.

For example, when Mitsubishi added the TC-SST to the Evo X MR, it came at a cost that people seemed to be willing to pay, since people did buy it. The premium over the manual wasn't too bad. But if they had a carbon fiber bodied Evo, it's not going to be cheap. Same thing with ceramic rotors. They make sense on higher-end sports cars like Porsches, but you're not going to see them on a Scion FR-S or Subaru BRZ, even if it would have a benefit.
I totally agree with you. The C7 is a pretty high end sports car, that is why they decided to put carbon fiber, but didn't bother with DCT. They didn't think it was necessary. Corvette buyers prefer manuals.
4wdwrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 08:20 PM   #249
sotti
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 33474
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:
04 M3
Imola Red

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4wdwrx View Post
I totally agree with you. The C7 is a pretty high end sports car, that is why they decided to put carbon fiber, but didn't bother with DCT. They didn't think it was necessary. Corvette buyers prefer manuals.
Actually I'm pretty sure corvette buyers prefer autos.

Never under estimate the taste of the american public.
sotti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 10:14 PM   #250
Calamity Jesus
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 44501
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: in a minefield of caddishness.
Vehicle:
1984 "Skeletor from
"He-Man"

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post
Actually I'm pretty sure corvette buyers prefer autos.

Never under estimate the taste of the american public.
True.



Z06 track guys (the folks club racing on a budget) prefer manuals because they can afford to repair them when they do break.
Calamity Jesus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.