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Old 11-04-2012, 10:46 AM   #26
DjTrav
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i think people are very uneducated when it comes to being a manual. dual clutch is the future, just like synchros were the future to manuals before. People always complain, but if its better, its better.

Move on and enjoy the new technology imo. I love manual, I love driving my subie, but I would trade 3 of my subies for a gtr. It is an amazing car.
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:50 PM   #27
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Depends on how you define BETTER. Your definition of better is not the same as mine I can promise you. Better to me is more interaction and involvement. Any doofus can mash a go pedal. Therefore by my personal metric, the GTR is NOT better. And I would prefer a manual. But that will never happen, because cars like GTR's sell to magazine racers who need numbers to validate their manhood.
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:35 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
And I would prefer a manual. But that will never happen, because cars like GTR's sell to magazine racers who need numbers to validate their manhood.
That would include every american muscle car that gets increases in HP year after year, its not just the GTR. The GTR is what it is because of the engine, tranny and all the other components working together. I would think Nissan would have to completely redesign the car if they wanted to put in a manual. I'm glad the GTR isn't offered with a manual, technology needs to advance and the future of complex sports cars won't have manuals offered. Unless you like tin cans with big, loud V8s.
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:38 PM   #29
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Lol, you can row through the gears all you want but if you can't DRIVE the damn car it doesn't matter if you know how to move a stick to a position so the car can go faster. ;D The GTR is an automatic and I'm glad because the manual enthusiasts can go take a Porsche out for a drive instead if they can even afford it.
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Old 11-04-2012, 04:16 PM   #30
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Oh my....

I didn't mean for this to turn into a Manual vs. Automatic battle to the death.

I was just hoping the new model year was offering a manual option. Not that it matters much to me, I'm 18 and FAR from buying a GTR, lol.
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Old 11-04-2012, 04:24 PM   #31
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Let's just acknowledge that some people deliberately prefer older technology. The GT-R is certainly a technology marvel and a monster performer for the price, but there's something satisfying about a manual gearbox, expert driver or not.

It's the same reason some of us prefer vinyl to MP3s and books to Nooks. Moving on...
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Old 11-04-2012, 04:36 PM   #32
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haters gonna hate, people with money and good jobs gonna drive nice cars. thats all this conversation is about imo. people using the term enthusiast as a crutch for not being able to own something. 2.7 seconds because of the transmission, manual wouldnt even come close to reaching that. Thats why they use a dct, because it is better. And the gtr is one hell of a ride, you dont need standard manual to enjoy it.
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Old 11-04-2012, 05:26 PM   #33
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BEHOLD the magazine racer DjTrav as he raises his magazine in the air quoting 2.7 seconds 0-60 in a declaration that solidifies the greatness of the GTR based solely on one single metric. Here is a man who believes that numbers alone makes a car immortal, revolutionary, and great. DjTrav is so focused on performance that he has never learned to use punctuation, as that is old school and outdated like manuals.

THe GTR is a technological marvel and it is great that Nissan has the chops to build it. Even if I had the money, and I could probably swing it if I tried, I would not. It does not appeal to me the way a car with a manual would. Well that and I have to have a 4 door car.

A manual is not outdated at all. It is just different and gives a connection to driving that is unmatched by video game style flappy paddles.

Since not one single one of you DSG fanbois race on a track where lap times count for a darn thing (as in money), your insistence on the DSG being faster is completely and utterly meaningless.

Go back to your moms basement and learn some more interweb quotes...haters gonna hate is so 2010. You are dragging way behind.

A DSG is for lap times and magazine numbers, and maybe fuel economy. A manual is purely for fun. I think both should be offered. But financially that is not possible. Cars like the GTR need A DSG for the mag numbers and bragging rights. And that is fine.

Guys like me who love to be mechanically connected to a car will always wonder just how magnificent it could be with a manual.
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Old 11-04-2012, 05:56 PM   #34
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haters gonna hate, people with money and good jobs gonna drive nice cars. thats all this conversation is about imo. people using the term enthusiast as a crutch for not being able to own something. 2.7 seconds because of the transmission, manual wouldnt even come close to reaching that. Thats why they use a dct, because it is better. And the gtr is one hell of a ride, you dont need standard manual to enjoy it.


There's no way a self-described enthusiast could actually be wealthy and prefer manual transmissions. Got it.
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Old 11-04-2012, 09:53 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Cars like the GTR need A DSG for the mag numbers and bragging rights. And that is fine.
Cars like the GTR need a DSG because its the only transmission that fully exploits its capabilities. It has nothing to do with magazine racing and everything to do with putting the best package together to sell cars. Don't like the GTR because it doesn't offer a manual? Fine. Go buy something else in the same class with a standard transmission. The GTR doesn't need a manual to be fun and extremely fast. Like I said, manuals will go the way of the dinosaur in future supercars, you just can't get the most out of the car that has over 500hp with a human shifting.
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:33 PM   #36
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At least im not the only one who can see it. I didnt point you out scrappy, but you are wrong. I dont like change either, but you cant argue fact. People make manuals with synchos... what happened to the older enthuisiasts that loved the older manuals? Things change, accept it. I planned on buying a gtr till i saw ffrs 818 project... i still resepect the gtr and woupd hate for them to take steps backward, dct is better. I agree with you, its more fun to throw a stick around. but drive a gtr, you will love it.

Btw, i use a tablet... i didnt know i was being graded on punctuation. And i couldnt live in my moms basement... i have 2 kids... my house is much bigger than my parents.

If you want to hate my decision from gtr to ffr 818, its a father son project... im not rich enough to do both... i think the decision is obvious.

Last edited by DjTrav; 11-04-2012 at 10:40 PM.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:00 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Depends on how you define BETTER. Your definition of better is not the same as mine I can promise you. Better to me is more interaction and involvement. Any doofus can mash a go pedal. Therefore by my personal metric, the GTR is NOT better. And I would prefer a manual. But that will never happen, because cars like GTR's sell to magazine racers who need numbers to validate their manhood.
The GTR is the polar opposite of the BRZ and is BETTER with flappy paddles. It's one car that should come exclusively with flappy paddles because that's what it is and it doesn't make any excuses for itself. It's a technical triumph of innovation and achievement, not a throwback to the rose-colored "good old days".
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Old 11-05-2012, 10:52 AM   #38
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That's a pretty big generalization there. Viper and ZO6/ZR1 owners would disagree.
He's mostly right. 9/10 people who complain about the GTR this, the GTR that, The "Id just buy a (inset **** box used car) and put in (insert dollar amount and parts list) and make it fastAr" have never driven a GTR and can't afford one...and yet some how dont let people with 1991 civic hatchbacks #motorswap #stripinterior #turbokit use the same logic on their STI

Viper/Z06/ZR1 owners just don't like the GTR because they get beat

It is absolutely inarguable that for performance of modern production cars, the GT-R is the king. Especially when modded....nothing can compete with it when looked at across the performance range. With simple bolt ons you can run 10's at the drag strip on friday, beat 90%+ of cars on the street saturday, and do hot laps at a race track on sunday, having done zero changes to the car and with total reliability. It just can't be beat.

Granted there are other factors that go into deciding to buy a car. Sometimes we just buy the car we like with less concerns for the numbers....and while its certainly subjective and appropriate for some people to not like the GTR, there is no arguing its performance.
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Old 11-05-2012, 10:54 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
BEHOLD the magazine racer DjTrav as he raises his magazine in the air quoting 2.7 seconds 0-60 in a declaration that solidifies the greatness of the GTR based solely on one single metric. Here is a man who believes that numbers alone makes a car immortal, revolutionary, and great. DjTrav is so focused on performance that he has never learned to use punctuation, as that is old school and outdated like manuals.

THe GTR is a technological marvel and it is great that Nissan has the chops to build it. Even if I had the money, and I could probably swing it if I tried, I would not. It does not appeal to me the way a car with a manual would. Well that and I have to have a 4 door car.

A manual is not outdated at all. It is just different and gives a connection to driving that is unmatched by video game style flappy paddles.

Since not one single one of you DSG fanbois race on a track where lap times count for a darn thing (as in money), your insistence on the DSG being faster is completely and utterly meaningless.

Go back to your moms basement and learn some more interweb quotes...haters gonna hate is so 2010. You are dragging way behind.

A DSG is for lap times and magazine numbers, and maybe fuel economy. A manual is purely for fun. I think both should be offered. But financially that is not possible. Cars like the GTR need A DSG for the mag numbers and bragging rights. And that is fine.

Guys like me who love to be mechanically connected to a car will always wonder just how magnificent it could be with a manual.
You, sir, need a 1994 5cyl Audi S4.
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:09 AM   #40
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Nah, a 1983-4 SWB quattro would be very cool though!

Again, better is purely subjective. If by better you mean faster, then yes, the GTR is better with a DSG. But I would still love the opportunity to drive a GTR with a manual box. The R34 did not seem to have any issues being a manual. In fact it became the car of legendary desire among tuners and drivers alike.

I never said the GTR was anything BUT a wonderful technological achievement. But technology alone does not make for a great drivers car.

DJtrav you are always being graded on grammar. Welcome to the real world. Tablets have a full key board. What you are proving is you are lazy. Which also would indicate why you like DSG's. It's easier. Requires less finesse. Let the computer think for you.

Have fun with that guys.

Just understand that Better is not the same for everybody. Better to some is more interactive, to others its magazine numbers, to others, its price, to others its the feel of the interior.

Just saying a car is better because it is faster is moronic. Shows immature narrow minded thinking. But if that is the metric you care about, then power to you.

You may think being more connected to the car is old fashioned, and that is fine as well.
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:24 AM   #41
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Dual clutch transmissions come up on paper as marginally quicker than their manual counterparts on the same car. In real world applications that minor difference will go completely unnoticed, but the amount of fun in the manual gearbox won't. A tenth of a second may be a lot in the racing world, but not in the driving world. Not to mention most people who do buy dual clutch and other advanced auto tranny's never actually use the shifting feature, and as far as I'm concerned an automatic tranny's auto gear changes will never beat a true drivers intuition, no matter how much faster the automatics gear changes are.

I know it's comparing apples to oranges but, when I took my car raceway park, I ran against an auto v10 m5, those have a super advanced tranny that are supposed to shift faster than any manuals. His fully bolted car, probably valued at around $100,000 ran a slower time than my fully bolted $25,000 manual ****box, it may have only been .003 seconds, but I expected to get smoked...

Having said that, if I had the dough, I would buy the **** out of this GTR... but if a manual transmission I was also offered, I would always opt for it.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:36 PM   #42
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The GTR is a sweeet machine.

having said that- I agree with:
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigevilfoot View Post
In real world applications that minor difference will go completely unnoticed, but the amount of fun in the manual gearbox won't.


Having said that, if I had the dough, I would buy the **** out of this GTR... but if a manual transmission was also offered, I would always opt for it.
"bold" added by me


Last edited by Italiano; 11-05-2012 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:40 PM   #43
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Scrappy cmon... attacking a GT-R as a magazine racing car instead of just the all-out obliteration of any car at or like 4x over it's price due to it being just so damned professionally done and technologically advanced?

Cars with exceptional real world performance will always look good on paper too, its just some cars that don't look good on paper might be good IRL.
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:12 PM   #44
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My claim is that to me the GTR would be better FOR ME to drive as a manual. Do I care that it would be a few tenths slower. Hell Freaking No.
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:15 PM   #45
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I can't think of a direct response to this where I don't get banned

Prior to its debut, I hoped the GTR would have a manual trans option. But it doesn't make sense at all. The only point of the MT anymore is to add that dimension to the driving experience. The GTR is a speed robot, this does not compute. "Fun? But.. Slower? Character? Whaaaat?" For people with money who are also actual driving enthusiasts, there will always be 911s and M3s with MT option. Just make way and let the GTRs pass on the track.

I also hoped the GTR would be under $70k, and it sorta was. But before my buying window even closed (i.e. I gathered my senses) huge dealer markups became the rule and it blasted off to the moon shortly thereafter. This year it will probably start over $100k and typically sticker $110k. These improvements will be cited.
I bought mine winter of 09, 2010 model just out and $5k off msrp ($84,650 ) luxury and cold pkg at that time. Many dealers were asking 10 to 20k over so shop around and aggressive dealers on Ebay. What amazes me is the car get so much attention it's almost annoying. The under 30 generations find the car amazing i guess due to the video game experience.
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:57 PM   #46
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I bought mine winter of 09, 2010 model just out and $5k off msrp ($84,650 ) luxury and cold pkg at that time. Many dealers were asking 10 to 20k over so shop around and aggressive dealers on Ebay. What amazes me is the car get so much attention it's almost annoying. The under 30 generations find the car amazing i guess due to the video game experience.
Wow, you did really well. I knew of a few people who got MSRP on the first cars out of the gate, but they seemed to have connections or something. After that mark-ups were just the way it was. I was laughed at for mentioning $70k. It seemed like the market price hovered at $80-$85k until Nissan just started bumping it up themselves.
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:08 PM   #47
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Nah, a 1983-4 SWB quattro would be very cool though!

Again, better is purely subjective. If by better you mean faster, then yes, the GTR is better with a DSG. But I would still love the opportunity to drive a GTR with a manual box. The R34 did not seem to have any issues being a manual. In fact it became the car of legendary desire among tuners and drivers alike.

I never said the GTR was anything BUT a wonderful technological achievement. But technology alone does not make for a great drivers car.
Like I said, it's not the BRZ. It's not, never claimed to be, and never will be a "driver's car". It's a platform for technical achievement. Period. It's about the numbers and proving what's possible. The techno-whiz drivetrain is an integral part of what the car is. If you want a manual, buy a 911 Turbo.
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:22 PM   #48
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Dual clutch transmissions come up on paper as marginally quicker than their manual counterparts on the same car. In real world applications that minor difference will go completely unnoticed, but the amount of fun in the manual gearbox won't. A tenth of a second may be a lot in the racing world, but not in the driving world. Not to mention most people who do buy dual clutch and other advanced auto tranny's never actually use the shifting feature, and as far as I'm concerned an automatic tranny's auto gear changes will never beat a true drivers intuition, no matter how much faster the automatics gear changes are.

I know it's comparing apples to oranges but, when I took my car raceway park, I ran against an auto v10 m5, those have a super advanced tranny that are supposed to shift faster than any manuals. His fully bolted car, probably valued at around $100,000 ran a slower time than my fully bolted $25,000 manual ****box, it may have only been .003 seconds, but I expected to get smoked...

Having said that, if I had the dough, I would buy the **** out of this GTR... but if a manual transmission I was also offered, I would always opt for it.

You have no idea what you are talking about, so please stop now.

1. V10 M5 is a single clutch system. (SMG) A very old out-dated system. The System being used by the GT-R is on the level of a 458 Italia. BMW introduced their DCT, it was only offered in the M3, future M5s and M6s will get them.
2. Dual Clutch Systems are MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH faster then Manuals
3. While Dual Clutch systems have 'Auto' Modes, the Manual modes provides just as much liberty as a traditional manual transmission, without the clutch pedal action. Comparing the modern day Dual Clutch Transmissions to an 'automatic' proves you have never driven, nor experienced the difference. Its HUGE.


This notion that the most technolological advanced car should have an archaic transmission goes completely against the entire concept of the GT-R. "we'll over engineer everything but the transmission"

The GTR isn't for everybody, most people with the option think twice. But if being the all out fastest is your goal the GT-R is up there. Most people buying GT-Rs buy them because they can and want to experience it, I would say 80% of owners love their cars, the other 20% either sell because they never use the power or move to more traditional sports cars like GT3s, Vipers, Vettes, etc...
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:44 PM   #49
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Dual clutch or single clutch makes absolutely no difference to what thebigevilfoot was talking about. He is talking about how much fun it is to drive.

I recently drove a 2009 M3 with the DSG you mentioned and I absolutely hated it. Yes it shifted quickly, yes it was easy to go fast, but it was about as tactile and involving as hitting the 'A' button on my xbox controller. That gloriously responsive engine deserved a better gearbox for it.

A DSG and an automatic are inherently the same damn thing. Put it in D and let it do all the work. How fast they shift is pointless. You are still letting a computer do the work for you.

That is the only point folks like me are making. A DSG is and always will be a less involving drive. If the point of the GTR is to be the fastest car to drive at street legal speeds, then congrats. It wins. Whoopie. Sadly, I know numbers sell cars. And if you want to compete with other cars with DSG's you need a DSG to put up better numbers.

In fact, the GTR was probably one of the biggest pushes for the abandonment of the manual in the past 15 years. Deciding to go with a manual vs DSG you almost guaranty yourself 0.3 seconds more to 60.

0.3 seconds! That does not hold up well to magazine racers at all.
That means a guy with a DSG equipped car can get to work 0.3 seconds faster than a guy with a Manual equipped car. I mean that is a HUGE difference.
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:53 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightSti05 View Post
You have no idea what you are talking about, so please stop now.

1. V10 M5 is a single clutch system. (SMG) A very old out-dated system. The System being used by the GT-R is on the level of a 458 Italia. BMW introduced their DCT, it was only offered in the M3, future M5s and M6s will get them.
2. Dual Clutch Systems are MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH faster then Manuals
3. While Dual Clutch systems have 'Auto' Modes, the Manual modes provides just as much liberty as a traditional manual transmission, without the clutch pedal action. Comparing the modern day Dual Clutch Transmissions to an 'automatic' proves you have never driven, nor experienced the difference. Its HUGE.


This notion that the most technolological advanced car should have an archaic transmission goes completely against the entire concept of the GT-R. "we'll over engineer everything but the transmission"

The GTR isn't for everybody, most people with the option think twice. But if being the all out fastest is your goal the GT-R is up there. Most people buying GT-Rs buy them because they can and want to experience it, I would say 80% of owners love their cars, the other 20% either sell because they never use the power or move to more traditional sports cars like GT3s, Vipers, Vettes, etc...
You're missing the point.

Are any of these tranmissions fast? - Yes
Are they faster than 3 pedal manuals? - Yes
Are they more consistant? - Yes
Do they impress the friends of the more-money-than-brains people who don't track these things? - Yes



Are they more fun? **** no.
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