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Old 04-04-2013, 01:12 PM   #201
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Fun is relative and nobody can tell anybody else a manual is more fun than a DSG. But I can tell you a manual is more engaging and interactive. If people place a premium on that metric then they will always prefer a manual.

IN no way would I ever say a PDK equipped Porsche, or lambo, or Ferrari would be NO FUN AT ALL. I would just prefer the slower manual equipped car, because in my world and in just about everybody elses world, lap times do not matter.
Can't agree more.
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Old 04-04-2013, 01:31 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Fun is relative and nobody can tell anybody else a manual is more fun than a DSG. But I can tell you a manual is more engaging and interactive. If people place a premium on that metric then they will always prefer a manual.

IN no way would I ever say a PDK equipped Porsche, or lambo, or Ferrari would be NO FUN AT ALL. I would just prefer the slower manual equipped car, because in my world and in just about everybody elses world, lap times do not matter.
Simple and true.
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Old 04-04-2013, 01:49 PM   #203
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A 600 HP car will be fun if it had tank tracks and a rubber band for a transmission.

Fun is relative and nobody can tell anybody else a manual is more fun than a DSG. But I can tell you a manual is more engaging and interactive. If people place a premium on that metric then they will always prefer a manual.

IN no way would I ever say a PDK equipped Porsche, or lambo, or Ferrari would be NO FUN AT ALL. I would just prefer the slower manual equipped car, because in my world and in just about everybody elses world, lap times do not matter.
You really should give an GTR, PDK (with paddles), or e-gear car a try. I think that you would be pleasantly surprised.

IMO the GTR, PDK, e-gear are more engaging and interactive than my E36M3 5 speed. Don't confuse the high performance flappy paddles with a standard car flappy paddle.
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Old 04-04-2013, 02:25 PM   #204
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Fun is relative and nobody can tell anybody else a manual is more fun than a DSG. But I can tell you a manual is more engaging and interactive. If people place a premium on that metric then they will always prefer a manual.
You could just as easily make an argument that driving the manual is a distraction and detracts from the driving experience.

Having to attempt to heal-toe while braking and downshifting isn't fun or engaging for me. It's tricky, tedious and an opportunity for an expensive mistake.
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Old 04-04-2013, 02:30 PM   #205
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Being able to go this fast on ice is nuts. I was expecting a spin that went on for somewhere between 6 and 22 minutes.
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Old 04-04-2013, 02:42 PM   #206
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Having to attempt to heal-toe while braking and downshifting isn't fun or engaging for me. It's tricky, tedious and an opportunity for an expensive mistake.
You could say the same about driving fast on a track. It's not supposed to be a walk in the park.
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Old 04-04-2013, 02:46 PM   #207
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As a side note, that's also why some people dismiss arguments for paddle shifters to move with the steering wheel rather than being stationary.
This only hit me recently. I used to prefer the paddle shifters being stationary, but now that I've been experimenting with shifting mid-turn and seeing how inefficient it is, I retract my previous cause and now I...

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Old 04-04-2013, 02:50 PM   #208
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You really should give an GTR, PDK (with paddles), or e-gear car a try. I think that you would be pleasantly surprised.

IMO the GTR, PDK, e-gear are more engaging and interactive than my E36M3 5 speed. Don't confuse the high performance flappy paddles with a standard car flappy paddle.
As a a guy with experience with those I will trust you on your opinion. As I have not the experience base to argue intelligently with you, I wont. Having driven a 2010 M3 sedan with DSG, I was not a fan at all, despite that wonderfully symphonic V8. I fouund myself feeling like I should be doing something all the time, and quickly grew tired of the gimmick.

We are all individuals, and we have different likes. I am sure I would have a BALL driving a GTR as the speed itself becomes fun. It really does not matter how you get there. Hell a roller coaster is fun and that has no pedals.
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Old 04-04-2013, 11:45 PM   #209
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Has any other vehicle in automotive history been so consistently upgraded and refined this often??? I think its great! I am just curious because those guys at Nissan just can't seem to leave well enough alone and I'm loving it!
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Old 04-05-2013, 09:57 AM   #210
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The biggest problem with DSG is that it is SEQUENTIAL and cannot randomly access any gear like 6 and directly into 2. It as to go through every gear so there is a pause before it will go. Many GT-R owners have complained about this "Pause" BMW claims to be introducing a DSG that can do this. Should be interesting
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:20 AM   #211
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Has any other vehicle in automotive history been so consistently upgraded and refined this often??? I think its great! I am just curious because those guys at Nissan just can't seem to leave well enough alone and I'm loving it!
Agreed. As long as they keep the price right where it is, it's good to see someone being so competitive and relentless with the already arguably best valued performance car in the market.

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The biggest problem with DSG is that it is SEQUENTIAL and cannot randomly access any gear like 6 and directly into 2. It as to go through every gear so there is a pause before it will go. Many GT-R owners have complained about this "Pause" BMW claims to be introducing a DSG that can do this. Should be interesting
Eh... sequential gearboxes have been preferred for racing for a while. I think skipping gears only has practical use when you're not downshipfing properly into gears (a.k.a. being lazy) during daily. Even if I'm not driving hard or at high RPM, I always "heel-toe" (in quotes because most people don't actually turn their foot sideways and instead operate both pedals with the left and right sides of the foot) and downshift properly through all gears versus just putting it in neutral and braking.
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:29 AM   #212
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Why did you feel the need to tell us that you heel toe "properly"

Enquiring minds want to know.

Just pieces of the puzzle man, just pieces of the puzzle.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:13 PM   #213
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As a a guy with experience with those I will trust you on your opinion. As I have not the experience base to argue intelligently with you, I wont. Having driven a 2010 M3 sedan with DSG, I was not a fan at all, despite that wonderfully symphonic V8. I fouund myself feeling like I should be doing something all the time, and quickly grew tired of the gimmick.

We are all individuals, and we have different likes. I am sure I would have a BALL driving a GTR as the speed itself becomes fun. It really does not matter how you get there. Hell a roller coaster is fun and that has no pedals.
Oh gawd, DSG is horrible. Sneak over to a Porsche dealer and drive a PDK 911 (doesn't even have to be an S) to get an idea of how good these transmissions are. Yes the power is outstanding, but if you really focus on how the trans is responding to your input, you get a whole new appreciation for the system.

I understand the "like" of a manual over automated manual. All of our household vehicles have three pedals (almost picked up an X5 manual for a DD).

Rollercoasters.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:55 PM   #214
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Why did you feel the need to tell us that you heel toe "properly"

Enquiring minds want to know.

Just pieces of the puzzle man, just pieces of the puzzle.
Because the only reason to hate sequential gearing is because you want to be lazy, brake in neutral, and then put it into gear after the fact. Which shouldn't be done under any driving circumstance . Ergo, sequential gearing is not a problem and forces good habits. Working as intended .
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Old 04-05-2013, 01:17 PM   #215
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I'm glad you cleared that up, WRXHillClimb. I was sweating profusely in anticipation of your response.
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Old 04-05-2013, 01:33 PM   #216
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I work as an automotive wholesaler and get the privilege of driving hundreds of cars a year. I've had Lamborghinis, Ferraris, Corvettes, you name it. Currently we have been tooling around in an 09 GTR we just bought. I have only personally owned manual Subaru's and love the feel of being connected with the car through the manual gearbox. BUT unless you have driven E-Gear or the transmission in a GTR there is no way you can say it is not absolutely amazing and a blast to drive. It is just as exciting to me as driving a high horsepower car with manual. We have a supercharged Corvette and we have the GTR. After driving the GTR I would choose it over any of the other cars all day. It is so well planted and exciting to drive. The car shifts so fast and gives you time to appreciate the speed and control instead of shifting and doing the work for the car. I understand the history and classic quality of a manual gearbox but on the street there is no lack of fun and excitement.
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Old 04-05-2013, 02:01 PM   #217
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I work as an automotive wholesaler and get the privilege of driving hundreds of cars a year. I've had Lamborghinis, Ferraris, Corvettes, you name it. Currently we have been tooling around in an 09 GTR we just bought. I have only personally owned manual Subaru's and love the feel of being connected with the car through the manual gearbox. BUT unless you have driven E-Gear or the transmission in a GTR there is no way you can say it is not absolutely amazing and a blast to drive. It is just as exciting to me as driving a high horsepower car with manual. We have a supercharged Corvette and we have the GTR. After driving the GTR I would choose it over any of the other cars all day. It is so well planted and exciting to drive. The car shifts so fast and gives you time to appreciate the speed and control instead of shifting and doing the work for the car. I understand the history and classic quality of a manual gearbox but on the street there is no lack of fun and excitement.
I thought E-Gear was fairly roundly criticized as not one of the best automated gearboxes... for being slow to operate due to being a single-clutch system.

R8 re-badged E-Gear as R-tronic (Gallardo E-Gear and R8 5.2 R-tronic are the same drivetrain)... and 6-speed was highly recommended over the R-tronic version.

I believe R8 just got S-Tronic with the visual facelift, a newer version of Audi's Dual-clutch system that is more closely related to PDK, and it is an improvement, and a match or faster than the 6-speed, now.
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Old 04-05-2013, 02:29 PM   #218
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I work as an automotive wholesaler and get the privilege of driving hundreds of cars a year. I've had Lamborghinis, Ferraris, Corvettes, you name it. Currently we have been tooling around in an 09 GTR we just bought. I have only personally owned manual Subaru's and love the feel of being connected with the car through the manual gearbox. BUT unless you have driven E-Gear or the transmission in a GTR there is no way you can say it is not absolutely amazing and a blast to drive. It is just as exciting to me as driving a high horsepower car with manual. We have a supercharged Corvette and we have the GTR. After driving the GTR I would choose it over any of the other cars all day. It is so well planted and exciting to drive. The car shifts so fast and gives you time to appreciate the speed and control instead of shifting and doing the work for the car. I understand the history and classic quality of a manual gearbox but on the street there is no lack of fun and excitement.
Sigh...

Never said it was not fun at all. A 550 HP car is inherently fun regardless of transmission (AMG anyone). I just took my 240Z out for a lunch break and it was borderline nirvana for me. The sounds, the transmission are just too much fun to be left alone.

Throwing super cars out as examples to justify how great a transmission performs is partly trickery.

that is like giving A supermodel an old T shirt and then saying how great that T shirt is. Put the same T shirt on an overweight ugly chick and the T shirt loses some 'luster'.

If an automated gear box is truely wonderful, it can shine in any situation. Would a corolla CE be better with a manual or a DSG?

Just layers of the onion folks.
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Old 04-05-2013, 02:43 PM   #219
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I thought E-Gear was fairly roundly criticized as not one of the best automated gearboxes... for being slow to operate due to being a single-clutch system.

R8 re-badged E-Gear as R-tronic (Gallardo E-Gear and R8 5.2 R-tronic are the same drivetrain)... and 6-speed was highly recommended over the R-tronic version.

I believe R8 just got S-Tronic with the visual facelift, a newer version of Audi's Dual-clutch system that is more closely related to PDK, and it is an improvement, and a match or faster than the 6-speed, now.
The programming of e-gear is what makes it great. IMO single clutch > dual. Sure it's not as fast (3/4 eye blink vs. 1/2 eye blink), but the way it engages is awesome.

GTR shift is firm and will get the tires to break loose.
PDK is smooth.
e-gear snaps your neck. Imagine the most violent shift you can produce in any given manual car X 100 = e-gear shift. Seriously, I have never been able to get a quick shift with clutch engagement that sent shivers down my spine in my 6MT Murci as I did with an e-gear LP640 (Gallardo engagement is a little less harsh than LP640).

R8 is too muddled down for e-gear to be a good match. The trans swap was a good move on Audi's part.
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Old 04-05-2013, 05:17 PM   #220
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There's no question in my mind of the capability of the GT-R, but I have to question its purpose.

When I see a GT-R on the street, I feel like I'm watching someone else play Gran Turismo, but in "real life".

I guess cars that are just all about "electronics" kind of bore me, there's no mechanical edge that will punish you.

... I think it's that same mentality that lead me to the STi in place of the Evo; I get bored of playing Gran Turismo all too quickly now.
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Old 04-05-2013, 06:32 PM   #221
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There's no question in my mind of the capability of the GT-R, but I have to question its purpose.

When I see a GT-R on the street, I feel like I'm watching someone else play Gran Turismo, but in "real life".

I guess cars that are just all about "electronics" kind of bore me, there's no mechanical edge that will punish you.

... I think it's that same mentality that lead me to the STi in place of the Evo; I get bored of playing Gran Turismo all too quickly now.
Drives DCCD AWD car. Complains about electronics in control and lack of mechanical feel.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:35 PM   #222
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^This.......its getting old.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:50 PM   #223
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Drives DCCD AWD car. Complains about electronics in control and lack of mechanical feel.
If it's "Driver Controlled" then all he has to do is NOT turn it on, right? I never used mine in my STI. It felt engaging enough without it.

Having rode in a GT-R, I can attest to it's feel and beastliness despite lack of a manual shifter.
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:04 PM   #224
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Drives DCCD AWD car. Complains about electronics in control and lack of mechanical feel.
I really never, ever, care to use it. I suppose it would be in "auto" mode, but I don't jump in my car and rush to adjust it.

The point I was making is that the STi is far much less dependent upon electronics than the GT-R.

I get the feeling it's like the Evo, you point, shoot and the computer "figures" it out.

Would you really call that mechanical and relying more on the driver's skills than the car's electronic aids?

Again, not trying to make people become annoyed, but simply stating my view point.
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:09 PM   #225
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I thought E-Gear was fairly roundly criticized as not one of the best automated gearboxes... for being slow to operate due to being a single-clutch system.

R8 re-badged E-Gear as R-tronic (Gallardo E-Gear and R8 5.2 R-tronic are the same drivetrain)... and 6-speed was highly recommended over the R-tronic version.

I believe R8 just got S-Tronic with the visual facelift, a newer version of Audi's Dual-clutch system that is more closely related to PDK, and it is an improvement, and a match or faster than the 6-speed, now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by White out View Post
The programming of e-gear is what makes it great. IMO single clutch > dual. Sure it's not as fast (3/4 eye blink vs. 1/2 eye blink), but the way it engages is awesome.

GTR shift is firm and will get the tires to break loose.
PDK is smooth.
e-gear snaps your neck. Imagine the most violent shift you can produce in any given manual car X 100 = e-gear shift. Seriously, I have never been able to get a quick shift with clutch engagement that sent shivers down my spine in my 6MT Murci as I did with an e-gear LP640 (Gallardo engagement is a little less harsh than LP640).

R8 is too muddled down for e-gear to be a good match. The trans swap was a good move on Audi's part.
Good to see wisdom vs knowledge.


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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Sigh...

Never said it was not fun at all. A 550 HP car is inherently fun regardless of transmission (AMG anyone). I just took my 240Z out for a lunch break and it was borderline nirvana for me. The sounds, the transmission are just too much fun to be left alone.

Throwing super cars out as examples to justify how great a transmission performs is partly trickery.

that is like giving A supermodel an old T shirt and then saying how great that T shirt is. Put the same T shirt on an overweight ugly chick and the T shirt loses some 'luster'.

If an automated gear box is truely wonderful, it can shine in any situation. Would a corolla CE be better with a manual or a DSG?

Just layers of the onion folks.
What are you talking about?

The GTR is a great car and the transmission is a perfect match for it.

Corolla got nothing to do with this. All DSG are not created equal, Nissan is not gonna put a GTR transmission into a Versa.
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