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Old 03-01-2013, 01:06 PM   #101
samagon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott_gunn View Post
With the 2002 WRX that was definitely a problem. It shouldn't be in a newer one. Your 2013 WRX should have no problem downshifting into 1st, nor should it have a problem with bogging in 2nd around a right hand turn.
on my '04 and '08 wrx shifting into first was not a problem, I just couldn't do it over 10 mph.
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:25 PM   #102
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So it turns out this S/C is being sold through Scion Racing. It's meant to be used by teams competing in Pirelli World Challenge since it is approved or will be approved for that series. The kicker is it is $26000 and you have to purchase two of them at a minimum. Also no mounting hardware, etc. provided.


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Old 03-20-2013, 02:31 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwx View Post
So it turns out this S/C is being sold through Scion Racing. It's meant to be used by teams competing in Pirelli World Challenge since it is approved or will be approved for that series. The kicker is it is $26000 and you have to purchase two of them at a minimum. Also no mounting hardware, etc. provided.
I lol'd. A shame they can take advantage of things like that because race teams have to stick to "approved" parts... What a rip-off. Let's hope the trd package one comes in at least close to this with one less zero?
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Old 03-21-2013, 01:36 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXHillClimb View Post
I lol'd. A shame they can take advantage of things like that because race teams have to stick to "approved" parts... What a rip-off. Let's hope the trd package one comes in at least close to this with one less zero?
http://www.world-challenge.com/news/...php?story=2808

Its so expensive because it is designed for the rigors of racing and they are only making a small quantity of them. I bet $26,000 isn't too far off actual cost for these things. Consider the engineering, materials, castings, machining (likely all cnc mill/lathe given the quantities), assembly (by hand), testing (every supercharger on a dyno with instrumentation), support (probably an engineer who can provide on-site support, and available 24/7 during racing season), and warranty. Plus, it was developed in 15 weeks, which is impressive. The work was likely done in-house to have it done in time, which means you are paying engineers and skilled labor, who would normally be doing prototype or product development work. Not cheap stuff.

Just as a quick back-of-envelope cost estimation:

It took 15 weeks to design and build this supercharger. Let's assume there was a team of 10 engineers working on this project. Each engineer probably costs TRD and Magnuson $200k a year (salary + benefits + facilities + software/tools). That's $577,000 in engineering labor.

The mold for the housing probably cost $25,000 in development and production, especially considering the lead time. Each casting is likely done at a low-volume, specialty foundry. $250 in labor for each casting, and $250 for materials (aluminum, sand, binder, release agent, and energy). That's a cool $500 each.

CNC machining costs about $100/hr. And you have to pay someone to set up and watch the machines, and he gets paid $100 hr. Assume there is 20 hours in actual machine time for each kit (not unreasonable, given how long it takes to precisely machine 3d surfaces). $4,000 for machining. And the metal isn't free; $500 in material.

Someone gets paid to put it all together by hand. The hardware used in these will be top-notch. Very low-tolerance bearings, the best fasteners, pulleys, and belts. Wouldn't surprise me if there was $1,000 in purchased hardware and assembly for these.

Each kit will be tested before it ships. Dyno time is damn expensive (I ran one for 8 months, and not the cheap kind you put your car on...) The operator is paid a cool $100 hr, and the facility costs twice as much. They probably do a full engine map with each supercharger (8 hrs). Plus 2 hours setup time. Thats $3k in testing.

The engineer paid to support the teams isn't working for free. Plane tickets for a flight tomorrow are $2000. And constant phone support, and access to the engineers who designed the thing. $3000 for support over the life of the kit.

All that to make, what, 50 of these total for this season? And because the racing teams have money and need it quick, price was not a important factor.

Lets add up what we have:

Engineering: $577,000/50 pcs = $11,500
Casting Mold: $25,000/50 pcs = $500
Casting: $500
Machining: $4,500
Assembly/Hardware: $1,000
Testing: $3,000
Support: $3,000

Total: $24,000.

Yup, $26k sounds about right.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:46 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C4RBON_F1BER View Post

http://www.world-challenge.com/news/...php?story=2808

Its so expensive because it is designed for the rigors of racing and they are only making a small quantity of them. I bet $26,000 isn't too far off actual cost for these things. Consider the engineering, materials, castings, machining (likely all cnc mill/lathe given the quantities), assembly (by hand), testing (every supercharger on a dyno with instrumentation), support (probably an engineer who can provide on-site support, and available 24/7 during racing season), and warranty. Plus, it was developed in 15 weeks, which is impressive. The work was likely done in-house to have it done in time, which means you are paying engineers and skilled labor, who would normally be doing prototype or product development work. Not cheap stuff.

Just as a quick back-of-envelope cost estimation:

It took 15 weeks to design and build this supercharger. Let's assume there was a team of 10 engineers working on this project. Each engineer probably costs TRD and Magnuson $200k a year (salary + benefits + facilities + software/tools). That's $577,000 in engineering labor.

The mold for the housing probably cost $25,000 in development and production, especially considering the lead time. Each casting is likely done at a low-volume, specialty foundry. $250 in labor for each casting, and $250 for materials (aluminum, sand, binder, release agent, and energy). That's a cool $500 each.

CNC machining costs about $100/hr. And you have to pay someone to set up and watch the machines, and he gets paid $100 hr. Assume there is 20 hours in actual machine time for each kit (not unreasonable, given how long it takes to precisely machine 3d surfaces). $4,000 for machining. And the metal isn't free; $500 in material.

Someone gets paid to put it all together by hand. The hardware used in these will be top-notch. Very low-tolerance bearings, the best fasteners, pulleys, and belts. Wouldn't surprise me if there was $1,000 in purchased hardware and assembly for these.

Each kit will be tested before it ships. Dyno time is damn expensive (I ran one for 8 months, and not the cheap kind you put your car on...) The operator is paid a cool $100 hr, and the facility costs twice as much. They probably do a full engine map with each supercharger (8 hrs). Plus 2 hours setup time. Thats $3k in testing.

The engineer paid to support the teams isn't working for free. Plane tickets for a flight tomorrow are $2000. And constant phone support, and access to the engineers who designed the thing. $3000 for support over the life of the kit.

All that to make, what, 50 of these total for this season? And because the racing teams have money and need it quick, price was not a important factor.

Lets add up what we have:

Engineering: $577,000/50 pcs = $11,500
Casting Mold: $25,000/50 pcs = $500
Casting: $500
Machining: $4,500
Assembly/Hardware: $1,000
Testing: $3,000
Support: $3,000

Total: $24,000.

Yup, $26k sounds about right.
I believe this is you right?


Joking!!!!! Nonetheless good math
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:09 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXHillClimb View Post
I lol'd. A shame they can take advantage of things like that because race teams have to stick to "approved" parts... What a rip-off. Let's hope the trd package one comes in at least close to this with one less zero?
These are racing parts for motorsports, not "tuner" parts

For rigorous track competition use, not for highway pull nor Saturday night meet.

The street version will be much cheaper though.

And C4RBON_F1BER is right about that.
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Old 03-21-2013, 10:13 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C4RBON_F1BER View Post
Yup, $26k sounds about right.
Cool, and those parts better last longer and produce more equivalent power/$ than any turbo/super kit on the market right now from tuners, or it's pointless.

Quote:

These are racing parts for motorsports, not "tuner" parts

For rigorous track competition use, not for highway pull nor Saturday night meet.
Again, they better not break like all of these official race engineered parts do a lot in races, otherwise what is the point in dropping all the $? Knowing you've extracted the best potential, where cost isn't a factor? Cost is ALWAYS a factor, even on astronomical budgets.
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Old 03-21-2013, 10:52 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C4RBON_F1BER View Post
http://www.world-challenge.com/news/...php?story=2808

Its so expensive because it is designed for the rigors of racing and they are only making a small quantity of them. I bet $26,000 isn't too far off actual cost for these things. Consider the engineering, materials, castings, machining (likely all cnc mill/lathe given the quantities), assembly (by hand), testing (every supercharger on a dyno with instrumentation), support (probably an engineer who can provide on-site support, and available 24/7 during racing season), and warranty. Plus, it was developed in 15 weeks, which is impressive. The work was likely done in-house to have it done in time, which means you are paying engineers and skilled labor, who would normally be doing prototype or product development work. Not cheap stuff.

Just as a quick back-of-envelope cost estimation:

It took 15 weeks to design and build this supercharger. Let's assume there was a team of 10 engineers working on this project. Each engineer probably costs TRD and Magnuson $200k a year (salary + benefits + facilities + software/tools). That's $577,000 in engineering labor.

The mold for the housing probably cost $25,000 in development and production, especially considering the lead time. Each casting is likely done at a low-volume, specialty foundry. $250 in labor for each casting, and $250 for materials (aluminum, sand, binder, release agent, and energy). That's a cool $500 each.

CNC machining costs about $100/hr. And you have to pay someone to set up and watch the machines, and he gets paid $100 hr. Assume there is 20 hours in actual machine time for each kit (not unreasonable, given how long it takes to precisely machine 3d surfaces). $4,000 for machining. And the metal isn't free; $500 in material.

Someone gets paid to put it all together by hand. The hardware used in these will be top-notch. Very low-tolerance bearings, the best fasteners, pulleys, and belts. Wouldn't surprise me if there was $1,000 in purchased hardware and assembly for these.

Each kit will be tested before it ships. Dyno time is damn expensive (I ran one for 8 months, and not the cheap kind you put your car on...) The operator is paid a cool $100 hr, and the facility costs twice as much. They probably do a full engine map with each supercharger (8 hrs). Plus 2 hours setup time. Thats $3k in testing.

The engineer paid to support the teams isn't working for free. Plane tickets for a flight tomorrow are $2000. And constant phone support, and access to the engineers who designed the thing. $3000 for support over the life of the kit.

All that to make, what, 50 of these total for this season? And because the racing teams have money and need it quick, price was not a important factor.

Lets add up what we have:

Engineering: $577,000/50 pcs = $11,500
Casting Mold: $25,000/50 pcs = $500
Casting: $500
Machining: $4,500
Assembly/Hardware: $1,000
Testing: $3,000
Support: $3,000

Total: $24,000.

Yup, $26k sounds about right.
I think one decent mechanical engineer and a drafter could knock out the design easily in a month or 2. add a month for a decent calibration engineer to develop and test a tune.

The real issue is the 50 pcs of course. If they would open it up to retail sales but for off road use only, they could probably sell several thousand units at the 4-5k pricepoint.
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:50 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aschen View Post
I think one decent mechanical engineer and a drafter could knock out the design easily in a month or 2. add a month for a decent calibration engineer to develop and test a tune.

The real issue is the 50 pcs of course. If they would open it up to retail sales but for off road use only, they could probably sell several thousand units at the 4-5k pricepoint.
Depends on how "unique" this supercharger is. If its just a reference design adapted to the new application, then the design phase wouldn't take long at all, maybe a couple of weeks. Engineers who design superchargers for a living will obviously get it done faster than a group doing it for the first time. The most time is spent in iterating the design (design, build, test, analysis, repeat). That's where I think most of the time would be spent.

Anyway's I was just making a quick estimation to show that $26k might not be unreasonable. The price could go up or down depending on lots of things. If they made thousands of these same superchargers, the price would plummet.
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Old 03-21-2013, 01:22 PM   #110
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Another thing to think about is that supercharger manifolds are fairly simple and not nearly as critical to design as manifold that relies on atomospheric pressure to opperate. When the whole manifold is pressurized, the flow paths can be a crude compared to a perfectly balanced NA manifold.
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Old 03-21-2013, 10:31 PM   #111
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These things do not come with any kind of tuning. Stout racing is using a custom Motec setup being done by a company here in Atlanta. They have some pics of the engine on an engine dyno with the supercharger installed.
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:00 PM   #112
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this is a cool idea, small displacement and roots it just a weird combo.
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