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Old 02-11-2014, 12:21 PM   #551
juanmedina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav View Post
Honestly you can't call anything over 600 reliable. Hell you can't call 500 reliable unless you paid 6 figures for the car and it came with that much power stock. You think Nissan would warranty a motor that blew up because you got bigger turbos and turned up the wick?

While an EVO 4g may have a more reliable motor, you would be rebuilding tranny's and your drivetrain every other week. I would venture to say 2 years out of the motor is way more time than you would have gotten with an EVO tranny at 600+ before something broke.

In this world if you want to go fast you have to pay to play. Skimping on one part at the time may seem like nothing because everyone always thinks "I am going to keep the power below that" and we all know how that works out with the mod bug, can be the difference between a $200 refresh to a $2500 new block + head work mistake. Been there, done that. Spend the extra $300 now and save your self $2000 later.

At the end of the day if you want something to be reliable you have to take all the external factors out. Figure out how to do it your self. Yes you will make mistakes but you will also learn from them. When its all said and done, you should have something you can proudly say you built ground up and when $hit hits the fan, you have no one to blame but your self. You learn from what failed or what you messed up and move on to make it better. Reality is, that is the only way you will ever have something you have call "reliable" with enough power to spank 90% of cars/bikes out there.

My advise to Juan is to put the car on the back burner and buy a reliable DD. Take the next year and assemble your spare motor. Ask questions in the built motor section if you get lost. Get it together and then take the time to build another motor for your backup. Once a year swap the two and improve the one you are refreshing. Once you get that down to a science, it should not run you more that $200-400 a year to keep a reliable engine in the car. This is if you want to have a 600whp suby you don't want to worry about breaking. Plan B is to turn the power down to 400 and live with it.
Thanks! that's one of my options building the next motor myself. My car wasn't my DD, I have reliable honda that takes the everyday abuse . I agree asking for 600whp from a 4 cylinder motor is just too much.

I will take the motor apart this weekend if the weather is good, I hope at least one of the head is good.
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:29 PM   #552
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I have heads from an 09 WRX in perfect condition. Let me know if you interested in those after you see how bad yours are damaged.
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:41 PM   #553
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Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav View Post
Honestly you can't call anything over 600 reliable. Hell you can't call 500 reliable unless you paid 6 figures for the car and it came with that much power stock. You think Nissan would warranty a motor that blew up because you got bigger turbos and turned up the wick?

While an EVO 4g may have a more reliable motor, you would be rebuilding tranny's and your drivetrain every other week. I would venture to say 2 years out of the motor is way more time than you would have gotten with an EVO tranny at 600+ before something broke.

In this world if you want to go fast you have to pay to play. Skimping on one part at the time may seem like nothing because everyone always thinks "I am going to keep the power below that" and we all know how that works out with the mod bug, can be the difference between a $200 refresh to a $2500 new block + head work mistake. Been there, done that. Spend the extra $300 now and save your self $2000 later.

At the end of the day if you want something to be reliable you have to take all the external factors out. Figure out how to do it your self. Yes you will make mistakes but you will also learn from them. When its all said and done, you should have something you can proudly say you built ground up and when $hit hits the fan, you have no one to blame but your self. You learn from what failed or what you messed up and move on to make it better. Reality is, that is the only way you will ever have something you have call "reliable" with enough power to spank 90% of cars/bikes out there.

My advise to Juan is to put the car on the back burner and buy a reliable DD. Take the next year and assemble your spare motor. Ask questions in the built motor section if you get lost. Get it together and then take the time to build another motor for your backup. Once a year swap the two and improve the one you are refreshing. Once you get that down to a science, it should not run you more that $200-400 a year to keep a reliable engine in the car. This is if you want to have a 600whp suby you don't want to worry about breaking. Plan B is to turn the power down to 400 and live with it.
+ ∞

Excellent post. Really nails the truth of taking a a platform like this to these power levels.

---------

I think its amazing your stock rods to lasted as long as they did. I've got a few cars, including my own that have survived ~400-430 torque on stock rods for a decent amount of time now but its still playing with fire honestly.
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:48 PM   #554
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Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
Thanks! that's one of my options building the next motor myself. My car wasn't my DD, I have reliable honda that takes the everyday abuse . I agree asking for 600whp from a 4 cylinder motor is just too much.

I will take the motor apart this weekend if the weather is good, I hope at least one of the head is good.
After going through two catastrophic rod failures myself, I can tell you your heads will be fine although your valves in the broken cylinder are likely to be bent. Your crank is probably destroyed depending on how long it ran post break. Pistons may or may not be ok again depending on how long it ran after it broke. The two motors that I had break, both sets of pistons could have been reused but were nicked up so I just got new ones. One crank was ok, the other was not due to how it broke and how long I ran it afterwards
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:51 PM   #555
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My stock rods on my 06 STi lasted 60k miles. 20k miles stage 2 (340 ft-lbs) and like 30k + miles with 20G, APS SR50, DOM 3 and T60R. When the rod snapped the carnage was bad. Hole in the block right where the EJ25 stamp is (i still have the suvenier) and one piston hit the head not enough to damaged it completely but i replaced them anyway. I hope you have better luck.
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:22 PM   #556
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Wow just took the time to read this whole thread. Sorry to budge in and start throwing words but you really pushed the motor hard. Especially with stock 08+ STi rods. I made a mistake of buying someones mistakes. They sold me a fully built long block, and he was running the wrong dipstick So the motor starved itself, even though I checked the oil. It had a WRX dipstick, with an STi oil pan. It spun a bearing after only 10k miles. on EJ257 99.75mm Bore Disassembled, cleaned, decked and torque plate honed. Crankshaft polished and balanced to .5g Blueprinted and Reassembled with Calico Coated ACL Race Bearings Brand New 8.2:1 99.75mm Mahle Pistons and File Fitted Rings Manley Rods(H beam) Version 7 JDM big port heads PnP,radius valve and decked BC cams 280 New springs and retainers. it was pushing 466/401 @ 22psi on an T60R FMIC and all supporting mods.

Endless to say, my heads were re-useable, but my builder said they're not ideal. They cleaned them up, and re assembled. Im very nervous about that for the future. I got a new 2011 OEM block with drop in manley pistons (stock bore) and roughly 2600~ miles on it now. it still has its break in tune 361/314 @ 18psi

I hope you have a better experience next time.
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:03 PM   #557
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav View Post
Honestly you can't call anything over 600 reliable. Hell you can't call 500 reliable unless you paid 6 figures for the car and it came with that much power stock. You think Nissan would warranty a motor that blew up because you got bigger turbos and turned up the wick? While an EVO 4g may have a more reliable motor, you would be rebuilding tranny's and your drivetrain every other week. I would venture to say 2 years out of the motor is way more time than you would have gotten with an EVO tranny at 600+ before something broke. In this world if you want to go fast you have to pay to play. Skimping on one part at the time may seem like nothing because everyone always thinks "I am going to keep the power below that" and we all know how that works out with the mod bug, can be the difference between a $200 refresh to a $2500 new block + head work mistake. Been there, done that. Spend the extra $300 now and save your self $2000 later. At the end of the day if you want something to be reliable you have to take all the external factors out. Figure out how to do it your self. Yes you will make mistakes but you will also learn from them. When its all said and done, you should have something you can proudly say you built ground up and when $hit hits the fan, you have no one to blame but your self. You learn from what failed or what you messed up and move on to make it better. Reality is, that is the only way you will ever have something you have call "reliable" with enough power to spank 90% of cars/bikes out there. My advise to Juan is to put the car on the back burner and buy a reliable DD. Take the next year and assemble your spare motor. Ask questions in the built motor section if you get lost. Get it together and then take the time to build another motor for your backup. Once a year swap the two and improve the one you are refreshing. Once you get that down to a science, it should not run you more that $200-400 a year to keep a reliable engine in the car. This is if you want to have a 600whp suby you don't want to worry about breaking. Plan B is to turn the power down to 400 and live with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXt4cy View Post
+ ∞ Excellent post. Really nails the truth of taking a a platform like this to these power levels. --------- I think its amazing your stock rods to lasted as long as they did. I've got a few cars, including my own that have survived ~400-430 torque on stock rods for a decent amount of time now but its still playing with fire honestly.
Yes totally agree with Jeff here and that was an excellent post. Sometimes it pays to cut corners but not very often and not with a motor build that you KNOW you will push. A motor is only as strong as it's weakest component and it always pays in the long run to use well matched components for the targeted goal of the build. It's Murphy's law if you leave something to fail it will! Sometimes like with clutches that's a good plan to make that the weak link. Engine rotating assemblies not so much!

I'm of the mind to agree with Jeff here and have two motors or at least two short blocks to swap back and forth and improve each with the refresh that way the down time is minimized.

Make it better and stronger Juan! You have a nice car super clean and you've put a ton of time in it. Keep it going and have fun! Buying into a more pricy platform like a GTR or a Porsche will just bring more expensive headaches down the road. They are still nice cars though

Last edited by manitou; 02-11-2014 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:20 PM   #558
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Make it better and stronger Juan! You have a nice car super clean and you've put a ton of time in it. Keep it going and have fun! Buying into a more pricy platform like a GTR or a Porsche will just bring more expensive headaches down the road. They are still nice cars though
Or you could run a GTR and make 600whp reliably with no issues. I'd imagine the Porsche Turbo would be pretty close as well. There are significant advantages for going with a much better platform. Like not building engines every couple years...
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:11 PM   #559
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If you think subys are expensive, wait till you break a GTR. And you know your going to mod it.
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:35 PM   #560
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I 100% remember saying years ago when you were building a motor to overbuild it because you would outgrow the turbo setup. That was when you were on the GREEN!

Then came the Black.

And now the 6466.

The lesson to be learned in looking back is you have the bug, and its bad. You have moved from the fastest trapping VF to trying a max out an OG green, fight for spool with the Black, giving up instaspool and light weight stuffs for a front mount and a 6 speed, all within what time frame?

A bolt on GTR will get old for you, there is no way around it. Crystal has the idea down for our platform, and while its not cheap and absolutely does not sound fun, but it is far more reasonable than breaking a GTR. Annual ownership costs cannot even come close in my mind.
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Old 02-12-2014, 02:37 AM   #561
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If you think subys are expensive, wait till you break a GTR. And you know your going to mod it.
But they are harder to break.... A 500whp GTR is basically stage 2 at this point. Maybe stage 1 (tune) with the newer models. That's pretty much unbreakable. You could have a car that you can drive cross country with, run several 10 sec quarter miles in, then drive it cross country back. Reliably. Day in and day out. You are hoping for an 11 sec Soobie to be reliable? Come on. Just buy the GTR. There truly is no comparison for speed/reliability/ and even price.
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Old 02-12-2014, 07:52 AM   #562
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I agree with you completely.

Honestly anything over 500whp in a Subaru is a ticking time bomb. If you want a high HP car.....buy a high HP car.

I believe I saw that the new corvette z06 with come with 600 plus HP. Go buy that and have a warranty to boot.

I got away from the crazy numbers game and have been very happy with my 450whp. Its very fun and I don't have to hold my breath each time I do a pull hoping something doesn't break.

That's my opinion Juan. Build it......go back to the green and let it be reliable....or buy something meant to have 600hp.
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Old 02-12-2014, 09:02 AM   #563
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But they are harder to break.... A 500whp GTR is basically stage 2 at this point. Maybe stage 1 (tune) with the newer models. That's pretty much unbreakable. You could have a car that you can drive cross country with, run several 10 sec quarter miles in, then drive it cross country back. Reliably. Day in and day out. You are hoping for an 11 sec Soobie to be reliable? Come on. Just buy the GTR. There truly is no comparison for speed/reliability/ and even price.
I never said anything about power level GTR is roughly 5 times more expensive than suby to buy. Transmission rebuilds cost up to 40k. Sure you can say its reliable, but once modding stuff does break. I love the GTR and want one myself. But they will be more expensive in the long run unless you plan to leave it completely stock.
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Old 02-12-2014, 09:54 AM   #564
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I spend a lot of time on the gtr forums and you can get a built short block with Manley pistons and rods, stock heads, + a 800 wtq drag transmission (aftermarket 1st gear and clutches) for 11k. That includes removal and installation, assembly, balancing, gaskets, reinstall and everything with a life time warranty on the transmission. I think that's an amazing deal.
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Old 02-12-2014, 10:07 AM   #565
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I spend a lot of time on the gtr forums and you can get a built short block with Manley pistons and rods, stock heads, + a 800 wtq drag transmission (aftermarket 1st gear and clutches) for 11k. That includes removal and installation, assembly, balancing, gaskets, reinstall and everything with a life time warranty on the transmission. I think that's an amazing deal.
So for 11k you get rebuilt engine and trans for 11k out door labor included? Yeah that's a good deal. What shop does this?
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Old 02-12-2014, 10:45 AM   #566
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I spend a lot of time on the gtr forums and you can get a built short block with Manley pistons and rods, stock heads, + a 800 wtq drag transmission (aftermarket 1st gear and clutches) for 11k. That includes removal and installation, assembly, balancing, gaskets, reinstall and everything with a life time warranty on the transmission. I think that's an amazing deal.


I'm gonna drop that in my Subie
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Old 02-12-2014, 11:35 AM   #567
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Then add in the cost for the turbo kit, AP, tune, etc and your around the $25k mark plus the cost of the car at another $60+k used all said and done your almost at $100k if not more. I'd be rocking a lambo by that time.
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Old 02-12-2014, 12:42 PM   #568
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I never said anything about power level GTR is roughly 5 times more expensive than suby to buy. Transmission rebuilds cost up to 40k. Sure you can say its reliable, but once modding stuff does break. I love the GTR and want one myself. But they will be more expensive in the long run unless you plan to leave it completely stock.
Used GTR is 55-65k. How much money do you have to dump into a 25k Subaru to equal the performance? Prolly about 25-30k (built engine, rotated turbo, fmic, full fuel system, full suspension system). Then you put a tune on the GTR and it's ahead again.

A GTR is still the cheapest reliable way to run 10's. It all depends on what you want, but a reliable hp car is going to cost you no matter how you look at it. Reliability, I have found anyway, is truly the best from an oem and light modding (exhaust, tune, maybe E85 if you want to log a lot).

Yes, a Alpha 12 GTR is great and all, but I don't ever see the need to run 8's in a street car (maybe I'm getting old). The ability to use that power on the street is non existent and almost impossible to use it even on a race track. And I can't get this to do what I want, but here's the link to Car and Driver testing the Alpha 12 (which they did break).

But, that's my 2 cents, Juan is certainly free to do what he wants. I love high hp Soobies too, just glad I'm not the one dealing with all the headaches anymore.
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Old 02-12-2014, 01:04 PM   #569
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Then add in the cost for the turbo kit, AP, tune, etc and your around the $25k mark plus the cost of the car at another $60+k used all said and done your almost at $100k if not more. I'd be rocking a lambo by that time.
You are correct but with 10K on parts you probably would have a 900whp car with upgraded turbos. Yeah the initial cost is huge.... but the gallardo will be a 2004 stock lambo with 500hp at the crank for $100K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bswilmington View Post
So for 11k you get rebuilt engine and trans for 11k out door labor included? Yeah that's a good deal. What shop does this?
Jack's transmissions

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Originally Posted by rexblake View Post
Used GTR is 55-65k. How much money do you have to dump into a 25k Subaru to equal the performance? Prolly about 25-30k (built engine, rotated turbo, fmic, full fuel system, full suspension system). Then you put a tune on the GTR and it's ahead again.

A GTR is still the cheapest reliable way to run 10's. It all depends on what you want, but a reliable hp car is going to cost you no matter how you look at it. Reliability, I have found anyway, is truly the best from an oem and light modding (exhaust, tune, maybe E85 if you want to log a lot).

Yes, a Alpha 12 GTR is great and all, but I don't ever see the need to run 8's in a street car (maybe I'm getting old). The ability to use that power on the street is non existent and almost impossible to use it even on a race track. And I can't get this to do what I want, but here's the link to Car and Driver testing the Alpha 12 (which they did break).

But, that's my 2 cents, Juan is certainly free to do what he wants. I love high hp Soobies too, just glad I'm not the one dealing with all the headaches anymore.
I have spend tons of money in my car... I think a gtr would be more reliable at 600-700whp but again the initial cost is huge. I feel bad spending that kind of money on car even though the wife said go for it . She is tired of seeing me work on the car and just want me to have something more reliable. Fixing my car would be cheap compared to buying a new car, I think I can fix it for around 3-4K but I am just afraid of having another failure soon after. I have a friend that had 3 built motors within 2 months . If I cannot find a buyer for my car I will fix it with some nice internals.
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Old 02-12-2014, 01:17 PM   #570
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GTR's are nice cars I can't argue that at all. They are also in another class of cars and 3-4 times the cost of a comparable Subaru new or used same year comparo.

Maybe if you owned a GTR you would not be as quick to mod it as a Subaru but maybe you would. I think when the mod bug bites that's it and the GTR will be 4 or 5 times more money to mod and maintain compared to a Subaru. Just ask Junior about that.

On the other hand my buddy Alex has a 2014 GTR Premium an on his second run after letting it cool of he ran a low 10.9, bone stock. His built 2006 STI is still faster than his GTR and he has less money into it than the GTR.
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Old 02-12-2014, 01:43 PM   #571
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You are correct but with 10K on parts you probably would have a 900whp car with upgraded turbos. Yeah the initial cost is huge.... but the gallardo will be a 2004 stock lambo with 500hp at the crank for $100K.



Jack's transmissions



I have spend tons of money in my car... I think a gtr would be more reliable at 600-700whp but again the initial cost is huge. I feel bad spending that kind of money on car even though the wife said go for it . She is tired of seeing me work on the car and just want me to have something more reliable. Fixing my car would be cheap compared to buying a new car, I think I can fix it for around 3-4K but I am just afraid of having another failure soon after. I have a friend that had 3 built motors within 2 months . If I cannot find a buyer for my car I will fix it with some nice internals.
If you decide to fix and reinforce your motor and continue on the path with the 6466, then I would also recommend going through the rest of the driveline and replace or reinforce other questionable components, rear differential, axles, motor/ trans mounts etc. Hopefully averting another breakdown at least for a while. With an occasional motor refresh it could prove to be pretty dependable, time will tell.

I'm pretty happy with where I'm at with my car, I'll make just minor mods/ tweaks to it now but pretty much leave it as is. I've got 19K on the built motor and it's running pretty well. It makes good power and is very snappy on the street in quickness and response. I could see me going FMIC here soon and I will make some plans to build a second short block and possibly another set of heads to swap in when the time comes.
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Old 02-12-2014, 06:06 PM   #572
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Old 02-12-2014, 10:25 PM   #573
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Since we're on the different platform subject... my c6 z06 laid down 500whp with only headers, intake, and a tune. Stupid cheap to tune and modify. A lot more bang for the buck vs a GTR. I love GTR's but if you want mean power... its a nice alternative.
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Old 02-13-2014, 12:37 AM   #574
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Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Minnesota, mpls
Vehicle:
2002 Wrx,2.5L,HTA86
E85,2007 6mt,No traction

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Pick a platform you love and go to town.

If it ever gets boring or starts to seem "too expensive" (remember it was never to expensive in the beginning), its probably time to try a different platform.
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Old 02-13-2014, 05:30 AM   #575
SW00P_G
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 5591
Join Date: Apr 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Westerville, Ohio, USA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
EJ257 Gt35r

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My 2003 Cobra has been laying down 600whp and 600ft/lb since 2004. But I have a different forum for that. Ps- that's with just Ford parts also.
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