Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday May 5, 2016
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > Proven Power Bragging

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-23-2013, 12:45 PM   #76
Nuke209
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 108089
Join Date: Feb 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Minnesota
Vehicle:
2003 WRX
NF Performance

Default

Go SD with the FMIC
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Nuke209 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 01-23-2013, 01:14 PM   #77
bebesito21
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 176128
Join Date: Mar 2008
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: I <3 E85
Vehicle:
5862 ...baby boosted

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
I have to get a Kstech intake or something. Maybe I can go to speed density if Ron desires. Do you gained anything by going to speed density? what do I need to go to speed density? I don't feel like searching haha
you need an IAT sensor post intercooler. you have an 07wrx right? i dont think there is a speed density rom available for it (32bit ecu), so you would need the Cobb AP to switch or some other stand alone
bebesito21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 03:17 PM   #78
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen [email protected]
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuke209 View Post
Go SD with the FMIC
Yeah that would be good

Quote:
Originally Posted by bebesito21 View Post
you need an IAT sensor post intercooler. you have an 07wrx right? i dont think there is a speed density rom available for it (32bit ecu), so you would need the Cobb AP to switch or some other stand alone
I have Cobb so we can do SD.

So which intercooler core is the best? any test?
juanmedina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 03:32 PM   #79
Slimsti
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 155696
Join Date: Aug 2007
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: New Jersey
Vehicle:
2007 BLK STI Dom3XTR
415/405 Precision Tuning

Default

All i can give you is my first hand experiance switching from a tmic and maf tuning to fmic and speed density. I have a fully built 07 sti with all supporting mods(check my thread in PPB if u wanna see a complete list). With the DOM 3XTR on the tmic and 23psi i was making 368/350. I added a omni 4 bar map sensor,turbo xs fmic and went speed denisty and made 416/405 @ 26.5 tapering to 24 by redline. The way it drives though is just night and day. Its one of the smoothest cars ive ever driven in
Slimsti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 04:02 PM   #80
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

SD doesnt add power in itself....unless a MAF sensor limit was causing less boost to be run.

And the better drivability of SD increases as the size of the intake increases.

A 65mm VF car and a SD VF car should drive exactly the same and make the same power.

Whereas a 83mm maf car may have some drivability/cruise/idle issues whereas a SD car is less likely to.

I didnt have any drivability issues until i got up to an 89mm MAF. Even then, there was only 1 spot in the powerband that had a slight hesitation. Switching to SD that 1 spot was able to be tuned out.
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 04:11 PM   #81
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen [email protected]
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
SD doesnt add power in itself....unless a MAF sensor limit was causing less boost to be run.

And the better drivability of SD increases as the size of the intake increases.

A 65mm VF car and a SD VF car should drive exactly the same and make the same power.

Whereas a 83mm maf car may have some drivability/cruise/idle issues whereas a SD car is less likely to.

I didnt have any drivability issues until i got up to an 89mm MAF. Even then, there was only 1 spot in the powerband that had a slight hesitation. Switching to SD that 1 spot was able to be tuned out.
On EVOM they claimed that they gain some power by going to SD because you remove the MAF sensor which creates some flow restriction on the intake track.... but who knows
juanmedina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 04:21 PM   #82
Slimsti
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 155696
Join Date: Aug 2007
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: New Jersey
Vehicle:
2007 BLK STI Dom3XTR
415/405 Precision Tuning

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
SD doesnt add power in itself....unless a MAF sensor limit was causing less boost to be run.

And the better drivability of SD increases as the size of the intake increases.

A 65mm VF car and a SD VF car should drive exactly the same and make the same power.

Whereas a 83mm maf car may have some drivability/cruise/idle issues whereas a SD car is less likely to.

I didnt have any drivability issues until i got up to an 89mm MAF. Even then, there was only 1 spot in the powerband that had a slight hesitation. Switching to SD that 1 spot was able to be tuned out.
Oh yeah i completely agree. The majority of power gain came from the extra boost i was able run from not having a heat soaked tmic limiting me.
Slimsti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 04:22 PM   #83
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

i'd say the stock location intake track on a subaru creates more of an obstruction (losses from all the bends) than the little maf sensor.
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 05:39 PM   #84
Zee Biker
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 166005
Join Date: Dec 2007
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Northern 'Burbs
Vehicle:
2005 Saab 92x
Beaten Silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
SD doesnt add power in itself....unless a MAF sensor limit was causing less boost to be run.

And the better drivability of SD increases as the size of the intake increases.

A 65mm VF car and a SD VF car should drive exactly the same and make the same power.

Whereas a 83mm maf car may have some drivability/cruise/idle issues whereas a SD car is less likely to.

I didnt have any drivability issues until i got up to an 89mm MAF. Even then, there was only 1 spot in the powerband that had a slight hesitation. Switching to SD that 1 spot was able to be tuned out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
On EVOM they claimed that they gain some power by going to SD because you remove the MAF sensor which creates some flow restriction on the intake track.... but who knows
For an SD car, does intake size matter? For MAF stuff, there is a tangible WHP limit to how much flow a given diameter can support, but does that hold true when you remove the MAF?
Zee Biker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 05:52 PM   #85
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

Its not really a "whp" limit for MAF....its a MAF voltage limit....which can then be correlated to a whp, but that # depends on octane or fuel being used.

The simple answer is yes, intake piping length, bends, filters and diameter can absolutely effect power. Im pretty sure there are plenty of examples out there of people removing the filter on a large turbo setup and picking up 20whp.

Also, you can run hybrid SD/MAF with cobb and utilize a 65mm MAF pipe to dial in idle/cruise and utilize SD in open loop when teh small MAF tube would be maxed out.
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 06:15 PM   #86
slowgenius
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 48350
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Pittsburgh
Vehicle:
04 Jackstands
Dirty PSM

Default

does the maf sensor work correctly if its placed after the turbo and compensated for by subtracting the map? i would like to do that with my vipec.
slowgenius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 09:06 PM   #87
Zee Biker
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 166005
Join Date: Dec 2007
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Northern 'Burbs
Vehicle:
2005 Saab 92x
Beaten Silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Its not really a "whp" limit for MAF....its a MAF voltage limit....which can then be correlated to a whp, but that # depends on octane or fuel being used.

The simple answer is yes, intake piping length, bends, filters and diameter can absolutely effect power. Im pretty sure there are plenty of examples out there of people removing the filter on a large turbo setup and picking up 20whp.

Also, you can run hybrid SD/MAF with cobb and utilize a 65mm MAF pipe to dial in idle/cruise and utilize SD in open loop when teh small MAF tube would be maxed out.
I guess I'm just looking for an ultimate carrying capacity for the various intake sizes as if there is a speed the air cannot surpass and it causes a backup or reverse pressure?

Like a red on a 65mm, all SD. Sounds like a terrible idea, kinda.
Zee Biker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 09:31 PM   #88
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

I will give the same basic answer i did about the MAF sensor being in the flow....i really think the bends in the intake tract are more of a hinderance than the diameter. Especially the way most turbo inlets caulk into large stock location turbos....the "effective" cross section area is pretty small.

But to answer your question about pressure backup or reverse pressure....if there is a big restriction in the intake tract and you are running a silicone inlet....you can collapse them. IE the turbo will basically suck the inlet closed.

I would just keep it simple and match the intake to the compressor inlet. The largest stock location comp inlet is 3".....so simply pair it with a 3" turbo inlet and 76mm intake.

The only ones bigger are several of the FP turbos but you need to buy their custom turbo inlet anyway.

You really dont want increases in pipe diameter as you go through the intake. IE you dont want to run a 65mm intake with a 3" turbo inlet. You will get a sudden pressure drop and the flow will slow down.
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 09:38 PM   #89
kellygnsd
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32669
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Woodland Hills
Vehicle:
2007 2.34LR, EFR7670
LINK G4 hybrid STi

Default

The smaller the pipe that harder it will be for the motor to pull mass quantities of air through it. That's a mechanical loss and an efficiency hit which shows up as a loss of power.
kellygnsd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 09:47 PM   #90
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

He's just looking for an exact number. Ie, how much power do u lose on a red going from 83, down to 76, 73, 70, 65....

I doubt anyone has done any testing like that.
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 09:58 PM   #91
Zee Biker
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 166005
Join Date: Dec 2007
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Northern 'Burbs
Vehicle:
2005 Saab 92x
Beaten Silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
He's just looking for an exact number. Ie, how much power do u lose on a red going from 83, down to 76, 73, 70, 65....

I doubt anyone has done any testing like that.
If people see choke points on exhaust diameters (evo's), I'm sure there has got to be some research to be mined from simply tuning poorly matched cars.
Zee Biker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 10:06 PM   #92
Slimsti
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 155696
Join Date: Aug 2007
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: New Jersey
Vehicle:
2007 BLK STI Dom3XTR
415/405 Precision Tuning

Default

Is there any reason u never went ewg? Seems like u have a really well thought out car and are lacking a mod most higher horpsepower, large turbo setups have? Maybe u stated it already and I missed it, sorry if that's that case
Slimsti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 11:29 PM   #93
CatfaceType-R
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 81102
Join Date: Feb 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Habitual line stepper
Default

Match the compressor inlet to the intake/inlet in sd for best results, fff maf. Imo any more that's not tapered correctly(theory) or just too much past the comp inlet id, can cause what Ron spoke of.

C
CatfaceType-R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 11:46 PM   #94
achavez
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 139320
Join Date: Jan 2007
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Turlock, CA
Vehicle:
2006 RA 1-4 5mt
wrx obp needs a e85 tune

Default

All this subie intake talk just makes all my frustration resurface from trying to get the coupler on the turbo and my aps inlet. Subaru definitely did some unnecessarily difficult engineering with turbo and intake placement.
achavez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 07:24 AM   #95
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen [email protected]
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slimsti View Post
Is there any reason u never went ewg? Seems like u have a really well thought out car and are lacking a mod most higher horpsepower, large turbo setups have? Maybe u stated it already and I missed it, sorry if that's that case
I just wanted to keep my setup simple and the EWG is too loud for me. I want to keep my car looking as a sleeper. The weight it sits with the 490whp it should trap 131-132mph, I drive it all the time at this level. I bet I can hit 550whp with the FMIC easy....
juanmedina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 07:30 AM   #96
Zee Biker
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 166005
Join Date: Dec 2007
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Northern 'Burbs
Vehicle:
2005 Saab 92x
Beaten Silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
He's just looking for an exact number. Ie, how much power do u lose on a red going from 83, down to 76, 73, 70, 65....

I doubt anyone has done any testing like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatfaceType-R View Post
Match the compressor inlet to the intake/inlet in sd for best results, fff maf. Imo any more that's not tapered correctly(theory) or just too much past the comp inlet id, can cause what Ron spoke of.

C
Simply stuff like the following remarks are what I'm looking for, or something of an explanation as to why it doesn't apply for our platform the same way is what I am after.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/10607382-post20.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
I just wanted to keep my setup simple and the EWG is too loud for me. I want to keep my car looking as a sleeper. The weight it sits with the 490whp it should trap 131-132mph, I drive it all the time at this level. I bet I can hit 550whp with the FMIC easy....
It's pretty widely accepted that hearsay is garbage. EWG and FMIC, step on the tune and hit 600. You're selling it as capable in your hunt for a rotated kit, so prove it!

(I see your STi rods and disregard the tangible limits of them)
Zee Biker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 07:53 AM   #97
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen [email protected]
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zee Biker View Post
Simply stuff like the following remarks are what I'm looking for, or something of an explanation as to why it doesn't apply for our platform the same way is what I am after.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/10607382-post20.html

It's pretty widely accepted that hearsay is garbage. EWG and FMIC, step on the tune and hit 600. You're selling it as capable in your hunt for a rotated kit, so prove it!

(I see your STi rods and disregard the tangible limits of them)
Patience is a virtude.... is a 68lb/min turbo it should be able to make 600whp.

As for the rods the 08+ STi rods are a little beefier than the older ones. I just need to be careful with keeping the torque as low as possible with smooth transitions.

This is not my final setup, I want to try to break the stock location world record. After whether I succeed or not.... I want to run a PTE 6466 on a different motor setup.
juanmedina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2013, 09:35 AM   #98
Innovative Tuning
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 67958
Join Date: Aug 2004
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: www.InnovativeTuning.com
Vehicle:
MY96 Time Attack
and 06 STI daily

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
I think we should look at torque at 4000rpm for comparison. Torque is what makes a car feel good and fun.

This is my car on your road dyno, 5sp 3rd gear, FP black 68lb/min stock location.




EQ - 05 STI, EQ Built Block, GT35 Rotated, E85 - 473whp ...65lb/min rotated



EQ - FP Red on E85 - 456whp! 65lb/min stock location



As far as power goes I have no doubt that I will make around the same power if I raise the timing to 26*




you probably hit 300wtq by 5000rpm
Those setups all look like a lot of fun and they do spool and make torque well at 4000-5000 RPM, but I don't see what you're arguing about. I've seen 600 wtq in that range in 3rd gear on a 6 speed.
Innovative Tuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2013, 09:40 AM   #99
amalgrover
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 183480
Join Date: Jun 2008
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Valdosta, GA
Vehicle:
2011 Audi A3 Quattro
2009 Forester XT

Default

^ he said that he is purposely keeping torque low to hopefully help prolong his current engine internals life...also, 3rd on a 6sp and 3rd on a 5sp are not exactly the same...especially considering his 5sp setup was an 06 wrx (3.70 vs. 3.90)...i could be wrong about the year of his 5sp, but I am pretty sure that it is 06.
amalgrover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2013, 10:00 AM   #100
Innovative Tuning
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 67958
Join Date: Aug 2004
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: www.InnovativeTuning.com
Vehicle:
MY96 Time Attack
and 06 STI daily

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post
^ he said that he is purposely keeping torque low to hopefully help prolong his current engine internals life...also, 3rd on a 6sp and 3rd on a 5sp are not exactly the same...especially considering his 5sp setup was an 06 wrx (3.70 vs. 3.90)...i could be wrong about the year of his 5sp, but I am pretty sure that it is 06.
If he had an 06 WRX tranny that's a longer gear and longer final drive. Both help his setup spool sooner, not the other way around.

Like I said, it's good setup and I'm not knocking it. I just don't understand why the hubbub over the spool/torque.

I would never knock someone for being safe with their engine. It's a lot more fun to drive your car than have it sit broken, regardless of how much power it makes. I'm running more hp and tq on my stock shortblock, but I'm the first to say I don't recommend it and I don't expect it to last.
Innovative Tuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2016 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2016, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.