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Old 10-20-2012, 07:36 PM   #1
subaru_steve
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Default The Problem no one can explain!

Alright so I am in a bit of a serious situation here and no one can pin point the issue....

I put about a good 200 miles on my car this weekend so far, coming home through Harrisburg I hear this rotating patter noise, pull over and find this...


Rear Tire





But thats not the worst part, I look into it more, and notice BOTH tires in the rear look like this...



Now one might ask what my tread looked like prior. Tread level was even front and rear a month ago



So I call AAA for a tow truck, they want me to wait 45 min for a tow truck to drive me 5 min down the road, I make the drive and tire blows as I enter the parking lot. Guy there is a dick, Corporate will be getting a call Monday. Said I have been doing Burn outs and want Monroe to pay for me to play I asked him if I could get my alignment checked, I said I don't even want them to touch a bolt, just tell me my numbers, said he wouldn't even do that, doesn't want to be liable for anything.

The other thing too is my whole rear of my car is COVERED in black powder. I can pinch the powder off the inside of the wheels, its covering the mud flaps, rear bumper is dusted in powder.



Anyway This is what the tires looked like once they were off.






So what could cause THIS much wear this rapid? I had an alignment started 2 months ago, guy found I had bad tie rods but still did the front camber and rear camber/toe. Then once I had the parts fixed they finished the front. I ran an AutoX event about 2 weeks ago, tires shouldn't look anywhere near this after a first time AutoX runner runs one day of AutoX.

Current Mods that Pertain:
- BC Racing Coilovers
Daily Setting: F=12 R=10 Clicks
AutoX Setting: F=22 R=18 Clicks
- Stock Brakes
- Kumho Ecsta SPT Summer Tires (215/45R17)
- Rota G-Forces 17x8
- Alignment was to Factory Stock settings


I've been using these tires for near a year and a half, same time frame for the wheels, the coilovers have been on the car about a year (it dropped the height from factory .5 inches). The only recent "changes" to the car have been the alignment and the AutoX event I ran.

My thought is someone went to adjust the rear toe and messed up or left something loose, the wear is pretty even across both tires which shows its not a camber issue. I am going to have a garage take a look at the alignment Monday and see what my numbers come back.


I need to drive back to college tonight which is a 2.5 hour drive, issue is I am running old tires and new tires since all they could get was 2 tires that would fit my wheels. So that is two different tread patterns and two different wear levels (10/32 and 5/32 wear). Is babying it going to help? once i solve this issue I'm throwing on my winters as its that time of year and gives me sometime to save up for a good set of summer tires for next season.

Ideas?

Thanks guys!
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Last edited by subaru_steve; 10-21-2012 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 10-20-2012, 09:29 PM   #2
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Wow sorry to hear and see this, it certainly is a mystery. I noticed the last two digits of the dot number are 10 so it means the tires were made on 2010, which are newer than 4 years so should be good. The tie rods are bad but the rear alignment was still done so if any the front tires should have been the bad ones. The wear looks as if they participated in a drift competition. I really cant help much but the only thing I know is when the black powder comes out it means theyre being burnt or cluld also show from driving flats. Babying it wont really help because this doesnt seem like the sort of damange caused by agressive drving at least not in 200 miles, maybe more like 3000. Just droce normal but look/listen for anything scraping. Maybe someone else could chime in.
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Old 10-20-2012, 09:36 PM   #3
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Well I just replaced my transfer bearings and center diff this summer so I am familiar with signs of center diff failure and tail shaft bearing issues.

I am going to go to two garages to get numbers, honestly I can't think of anything else outside of alignment with toe. It's not showing signs of camber wear and as you said this would be either 3k in crazy driving or a drift car, my car is a DD. I checked the pressure for autoX and it was at 35 psi on a max 50 psi tire, when I pulled over I was still getting 35 psi.

I inspected visually all other components of the rear suspension and adjustment points and saw nothing loose, shook them too with no movement. Just need to make it back to college and I'll let it sit for as long as I can till everything is repaired.

Thanks for the response
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Old 10-20-2012, 10:06 PM   #4
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How many miles since the picture of the normal tread? How many miles are on the tires?

Not very familiar with extreme cases like this, but a major mistake in toe could be the culprit. However, if it's that bad, I would think you'd be able to look at your rear wheels and see a bad angle in the thrust angle on each wheel.

There's not too much I can help other than:

- The black dust looks like tire shavings, similar to when you do a burn out.

- If you can help it, do NOT make that drive back to college. A 2.5 hour drive with that different in tread depths (especially if they're different tire brands, models, anything) has the potential to seriously damage your diffs or completely blow them. It's only going to make the headache worse.

- Give that tire tech an "are you stupid" look when you talk to him next time for two reasons.
1: It's pretty damn hard to kill only the rear tires if you even did AWD burn outs
2: Allowing you to install different tread depth tires and giving you the green light to drive off their lot.

There's no one more knowledgeable to talk to?
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Old 10-20-2012, 11:25 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by joebobanaught View Post
How many miles since the picture of the normal tread? How many miles are on the tires?

Not very familiar with extreme cases like this, but a major mistake in toe could be the culprit. However, if it's that bad, I would think you'd be able to look at your rear wheels and see a bad angle in the thrust angle on each wheel.

There's not too much I can help other than:

- The black dust looks like tire shavings, similar to when you do a burn out.

- If you can help it, do NOT make that drive back to college. A 2.5 hour drive with that different in tread depths (especially if they're different tire brands, models, anything) has the potential to seriously damage your diffs or completely blow them. It's only going to make the headache worse.

- Give that tire tech an "are you stupid" look when you talk to him next time for two reasons.
1: It's pretty damn hard to kill only the rear tires if you even did AWD burn outs
2: Allowing you to install different tread depth tires and giving you the green light to drive off their lot.

There's no one more knowledgeable to talk to?
The picture you are seeing is of the front tires from today, just to show what the tread should look like. It not too too much, I have everything saved in an excel sheet and can figure out the number but I'm a bit busy right now. I run dedicated summer and winters so they are only on for 8 months out of the year and are a tougher rubber composite.

I've tried to eye up and see if I can tell anything but with the body curves of the vehicle its hard to see a change in the toe. Honestly toe is the only thing I can think of.

The black dust definetly looks like rubber shavings, on the side where the belt blew there are little pieces of the metal wire mesh from inside the tire mixed into the dust.

I am at a loss right now. I work 4 jobs and I'm a full time student. I am to be at work tomorrow at 2:30 and with it being sunday I only know of maybe one shop that "MIGHT" be open. If they are I could only hope they have either 2 of the same tire or suck it up and buy another 4 tires. Plus an alignment, don't get me wrong I keep money for times like this but having to buy $360 in tires plus another $500 in tires again and a $80+ alignment, I'm about at my financial ends till payday.

As for the tech, there isn't much hope. The guy was pretty ignorant and about everything I'd say and he had some "I know better" respone because I'm a young college kid in a sporty little car with a wing and he is a "grown up"

Corporate will be getting a call Monday morning about the guys overall customer interaction and ethics. When I asked about the alignment being checked, he initially said no then I asked what if I sign a waiver of dismissal from legal issue, he hesitated then said he had another 2 cars that needed done in the next hour before they close. 15 minutes later i see him out in the shop, threw a FIRE CRACKER at the tech working on my car, a mere 5' from my car, then proceeded to sit down and bull****, mind you...my car was the only car in the garage.

My worry is the drive tomorrow if I can find a place to take care of my wheels or if I need to find a way to get up there by other means. I am currently sitting 5/32 and 10/32 difference in thread depth on different tread patterns. The drive home I was doing 55 with my flashers on in a 65, sure it wont do much but its the thought its slowly wearing the car down as I drive.

I am looking to see if I can use what I have to get some sort of payment back for the problem if it is infact an alignment issue, hell I'll even try for a full set of wheels. Do I like the concept of getting free stuff like this? No, I work 4 jobs and earn what I have, but this was something caused by Monroe when I got the alignment and then dealing with these guys at the Monroe down here, I want something paid for if its determined to be their fault.
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Old 10-20-2012, 11:36 PM   #6
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I assume your brakes are functioning correctly?
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Old 10-21-2012, 12:25 AM   #7
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I assume your brakes are functioning correctly?
Yeah brakes are fine, right after I pulled over and noticed it I put my hand on the contact surface of both tires and they felt warm but within driving temperature, and then put the back of my hand near the brake rotor surface and felt the usual strength of heat. No unusual wear or anything. When it was up on the lift I was shaking components and visually looking at everything, brakes look fine.
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Old 10-21-2012, 12:49 AM   #8
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Wow, it looks like you converted that thing to RWD and were doing a ton of burnouts... I'm not even sure a crazy rear toe situation could create that kind of wear

Nothing is rubbing in the rear?

I'm sorry to hear of your misfortune, maybe the tire compound just gave up the ghost and wore extremely prematurely
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Old 10-21-2012, 02:00 AM   #9
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I know SPTs are cheap, but they aren't THAT cheap!
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Old 10-21-2012, 08:15 AM   #10
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that really looks like abuse

or ya woulda been smelling rubber every time ya drove it as there is no way to wear tires like that without KNOWING that SOMETHING is going on

or somebody else drove the car and abused the **** outta it

sorry...but tires dont just magically DO that...no


or somebody swapped tires on ya

there just arent many options out there


this kind of thing does not 'just happen'

something caused it and it should be GLARINGLY APPARENT that there is an issue
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Old 10-21-2012, 12:39 PM   #11
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Wow, it looks like you converted that thing to RWD and were doing a ton of burnouts... I'm not even sure a crazy rear toe situation could create that kind of wear

Nothing is rubbing in the rear?

I'm sorry to hear of your misfortune, maybe the tire compound just gave up the ghost and wore extremely prematurely
Yeah exactly, no the only drivetrain change I made was changing my center diff, I replaced it with a brand new one from Subaru. I looked all around both tires when they were on the car and then when they had them off I looked through the whole wheel well and there isn't a thing that is getting too close to the tire surface.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty View Post
that really looks like abuse

or ya woulda been smelling rubber every time ya drove it as there is no way to wear tires like that without KNOWING that SOMETHING is going on

or somebody else drove the car and abused the **** outta it

sorry...but tires dont just magically DO that...no


or somebody swapped tires on ya

there just arent many options out there


this kind of thing does not 'just happen'

something caused it and it should be GLARINGLY APPARENT that there is an issue
Well the only "Abuse" the car has seen in the past few weeks was an AutoX event. The event took place at a local business that loans us their parking lot for the SCCA event. The asphalt is smooth and it was my first time running so I was pretty much babying it through the course. Not to mentioned it had rained that night so the asphalt was wet, no one was able to keep good traction.

No one else has driven the car, not without either myself in the car or me watching someone like a mechanic move it into a garage. Thats it, car is my daily and only I drive it.

I never smelled rubber but I noticed the car drove a little funny after all the work I did to it (alignment, new tie rods, new lower ball joint). Car has this sensation when I'm driving at anything over 35 where it sways all over the road. Like its finding the ruts and valleys in the road and when the wheel gets into it it pulls the car into it. It got so severe that after this last rain we got I could feel the car drift over the center line a few times. I'd be holding the wheel steady and the car would just find a rut or valley in the road and pull me into it. At one point I was doing 25 in a 40 cause I didn't feel safe going any faster.

Honestly I have no idea what cause this. The tires were in good condition a month or so ago and now they are rubber bands. I take care of my car cause its my DD and I want to see the car last a few more years. Sure I had my fun at AutoX but I've seen guys beat on cheaper or not as fit tires and come out with some slight wear, not this. This is something different. I've checked every component back there visually and saw nothing.

What concerned me was after they put the new wheels on they put the front wheels in the back so if it does it again it ruin my old tires. Well I drove home which was a 30 mile drive, kept it under 55, I get home and find very fine black dust on the wheels that were upfront. Telling me it was already doing it again with these tires on this short drive.
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Old 10-21-2012, 02:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
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Yeah exactly, no the only drivetrain change I made was changing my center diff, I replaced it with a brand new one from Subaru. I looked all around both tires when they were on the car and then when they had them off I looked through the whole wheel well and there isn't a thing that is getting too close to the tire surface.



Well the only "Abuse" the car has seen in the past few weeks was an AutoX event. The event took place at a local business that loans us their parking lot for the SCCA event. The asphalt is smooth and it was my first time running so I was pretty much babying it through the course. Not to mentioned it had rained that night so the asphalt was wet, no one was able to keep good traction.

No one else has driven the car, not without either myself in the car or me watching someone like a mechanic move it into a garage. Thats it, car is my daily and only I drive it.

I never smelled rubber but I noticed the car drove a little funny after all the work I did to it (alignment, new tie rods, new lower ball joint). Car has this sensation when I'm driving at anything over 35 where it sways all over the road. Like its finding the ruts and valleys in the road and when the wheel gets into it it pulls the car into it. It got so severe that after this last rain we got I could feel the car drift over the center line a few times. I'd be holding the wheel steady and the car would just find a rut or valley in the road and pull me into it. At one point I was doing 25 in a 40 cause I didn't feel safe going any faster.

Honestly I have no idea what cause this. The tires were in good condition a month or so ago and now they are rubber bands. I take care of my car cause its my DD and I want to see the car last a few more years. Sure I had my fun at AutoX but I've seen guys beat on cheaper or not as fit tires and come out with some slight wear, not this. This is something different. I've checked every component back there visually and saw nothing.

What concerned me was after they put the new wheels on they put the front wheels in the back so if it does it again it ruin my old tires. Well I drove home which was a 30 mile drive, kept it under 55, I get home and find very fine black dust on the wheels that were upfront. Telling me it was already doing it again with these tires on this short drive.
Gotta be the rear toe. The way you describe the handling and the wear means the rear toe is way off! My last POS handled just like you describe, all over the road. I brought it into my shop and checked the alignment. It was toe'd in about 3/4 of an inch. I would guess yours is even worse. Mine was chewing through 60k mile tires in 25k. I adjusted it to zero toe and got 35k miles out of 40k mile tires. Stop driving it and get a good alignment asap!
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Old 10-21-2012, 03:09 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04whiterexwagon

Gotta be the rear toe. The way you describe the handling and the wear means the rear toe is way off! My last POS handled just like you describe, all over the road. I brought it into my shop and checked the alignment. It was toe'd in about 3/4 of an inch. I would guess yours is even worse. Mine was chewing through 60k mile tires in 25k. I adjusted it to zero toe and got 35k miles out of 40k mile tires. Stop driving it and get a good alignment asap!
Right now I am driving it back to college cause I don't have much of an option.

I think I found my problem, I've been stopping every half a. Hour to keep an eye on everything. Noticed this on my second stop



Not tire shreds and given its centrally located in the wheel I'm thinking my rear calipers are stuck and were dragging my tires. I'm tearing it all apart tonight to take a look.

Thoughts?
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Old 10-21-2012, 03:42 PM   #14
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Check your rear toe with a tape measure and a helper, do your best to get a solid measurment from the front and rear of the tire to the most fixed point you can ON the tire, or use a straight edge held against each wheel..
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Old 10-21-2012, 05:34 PM   #15
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d000000000000d...that aint the brakes


you need to stop driving the car until you get this figured out or your next indication that ya have an issue is the accident ya may have
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Old 10-21-2012, 05:38 PM   #16
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Pictures of the vehicle at ride height?
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Old 10-21-2012, 05:57 PM   #17
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Pictures of the vehicle at ride height?
This work for ya?

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Old 10-21-2012, 06:11 PM   #18
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Quote:
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d000000000000d...that aint the brakes

you need to stop driving the car until you get this figured out or your next indication that ya have an issue is the accident ya may have
Look I HATE how all of this has happened. But I'm back at college where school is 1/2 mile from my house and two of my jobs are within 3 miles, I'll be walking and taking my bike everywhere. My landlord has an alignment shop 10' from where my Subie is parked so it won't be traveling more than 20' for a look over and repair.

I am one that understands the need to run the same wear and tread type and have money to pay for that repair but not when I get a flat in a parking lot and can only get two tires.

Once I find the problem I have my winter tires/wheels that I'll throw on so I'll be back to running the same size tires again till I can save up enough to buy some good quality tires for the summer/AutoX season. Car is sitting, now to find my problem.

I understand you deal with a lot of "know it all" smartass kids, I've seen how you act on here and I know you do know a lot, can we please cut the sarcasm in your posts? I'm trying to be respectful and figure out an issue I'm having and just want honest answers from people on here. Thank you.
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Old 10-21-2012, 06:13 PM   #19
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Pm'd I work at a shop in dillsburg and live in camp hill so if your still in the Harrisburg area we can get an unbiased look at it instead of those Monroe idiots
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Old 10-21-2012, 06:39 PM   #20
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The back end looks very low in that pic. Are you positive nothings rubbing?
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Old 10-21-2012, 06:45 PM   #21
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The back end looks very low in that pic. Are you positive nothings rubbing?
Wheels sit about an 1/8 above the wheel wells. Clearance is fine and I've been running it like this for well over a year. The closest thing to the wheel surface is the mud flap that sits roughly 1.5" away. I've run my hand on the tire surface through the wheel well and feel nothing to close. The body panel sits about 1/2 from the sidewall of the tire so clearance is good there too.
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Old 10-21-2012, 07:13 PM   #22
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What about the strut body or the wheel well itself on the inside? If it's close to the wheel well it could be rubbing over bumps.

It really looks like something is either dragging or you're doing burn outs.
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Old 10-21-2012, 07:31 PM   #23
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its gotta be toe, I dont see anything else doing that to the tires and if the brakes were stuck you would hear the tires dragging i'm sure and there would be flat spots i'd think. it grabbing like its trying to run a rut in the road and going back and forth sounds to me like a direct relation to the toe being off badly. my chicks mazda did this in the front and I could tell the toe was off cuz it would grab every line in the road. looked at the tires and the pass side was about as bad as your tires or worse.
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Old 10-21-2012, 07:35 PM   #24
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What about the strut body or the wheel well itself on the inside? If it's close to the wheel well it could be rubbing over bumps.

It really looks like something is either dragging or you're doing burn outs.
Well as I've mentioned before there is over 2" of space between the top of the tread and the inside of the wheel well, even so I would of had to been driving over speed bumps for 200 miles to equal the amount of tread wear I suffered.

I'm willing to bet either the brakes are causing resistance in the rolling and thats wearing the tread or the toe is out drastically.

Burn outs?! You guys do realize I drive an AWD Subaru with a stock WRX transmission and I personally installed a $550 center differential this summer plus $200 in transfer bearings, there is no way in hell I am launching, drifting, burning out or anything else with this car or have I EVER. I'm not some little high school bitch with mommy and daddy's paid car and don't care how I treat it, this is mine from every tank of gas to my $2000 yearly insurance with 0 tickets and 0 accidents. I baby this car outside of playing with it for AutoX.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 02OCbugaye View Post
its gotta be toe, I dont see anything else doing that to the tires and if the brakes were stuck you would hear the tires dragging i'm sure and there would be flat spots i'd think. it grabbing like its trying to run a rut in the road and going back and forth sounds to me like a direct relation to the toe being off badly. my chicks mazda did this in the front and I could tell the toe was off cuz it would grab every line in the road. looked at the tires and the pass side was about as bad as your tires or worse.
When I said the brakes were sticking I meant more they were applying a constant pressure on the rotor causing an increase in the rolling resistance of the tires thus slowly eating at the material. However each time I pulled over I didn't feel any heat that seemed abnormal. Hell I was even able to touch the rotor without burning my hand. I have my money on the toe. I took a look down the line of the car tonight after work and I can't see anything but thats with body curves and mud flaps protruding 1" outside the body of the car.
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Old 10-21-2012, 07:38 PM   #25
Psychoreo
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Yes I know the probability is you not actually doing burn outs, I'm just saying what it looks like.

If the brakes were sticking or dragging your rotors would have to be red hot after being on the highway to have that type of wear.
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