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Old 06-14-2013, 01:18 PM   #51
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Introducing the First Ever BMW 4 Series Coupe!



Looks great, especially the M-Sport. Not liking the pricetag, but I can't afford it anyway so
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Old 06-14-2013, 02:35 PM   #52
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I've looked at these pictures side-by-side with the 4-Series Concept, and while they look so similar, I can't help but think the Concept is way more exciting (as it should, but there really isn't too much different).

Even though separating the nameplates into the 3 and the 4 likely being an attempt to move the 4 slightly more upscale, I still think the A5/S5/RS5 is a bit sexier, and it better separates itself from the lineup.

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Old 07-19-2013, 06:01 AM   #53
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BMW M4 styling previewed in 4-series M-Performance line
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Old 07-19-2013, 06:34 AM   #54
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Interior's an over-styled hot mess.

And that steering wheel...
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:12 AM   #55
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Scuderia/599 steering wheel on an M3!
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:08 AM   #56
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And I bet that car is already north of $60k equipped like that.
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Old 07-21-2013, 11:29 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by E. Nick View Post
Scuderia/599 steering wheel on an M3!
And it's not even an M3, it's a 335 with ///M performance pack.
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Old 07-21-2013, 01:02 PM   #58
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It's interesting how the designs are getting louder and louder, especially with the available M performance parts, when the cars are actually getting less and less engaging. Do the blinking lights on the steering wheel make up for the lack of steering feel?
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Old 07-21-2013, 01:12 PM   #59
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I am just coming from the BMW world to the Subaru world. It is going to be really weird having a 4 series. I think BMW messed up by doing so. The 3 series has been around for a long time. They should not have changed.

I do like the car though!!!
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Old 07-21-2013, 01:12 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Len View Post
Do the blinking lights on the steering wheel make up for the lack of steering feel?
Blinking lights are the shift light. I have driven an M3 with it, and it is a pretty cool feature.
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Old 07-21-2013, 02:13 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by VEGAS WRX View Post
Blinking lights are the shift light. I have driven an M3 with it, and it is a pretty cool feature.
Yes, I know they are shift lights. And I agree it makes the car look very sporty and track oriented. My comment was that BMW is increasingly pushing this sort of accessories while they are also making their cars less engaging, which is ironic. Read Chris Harris's review on the 435i, where he found the car to be good but pretty boring. Apparently the instruction to the journos before BMW unleashed them on the track was "no drifting". But you can now get the car to be covered in Alcantara, CF, and blinking lights if you have enough money.

Last edited by Len; 07-21-2013 at 02:18 PM.
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Old 07-21-2013, 02:21 PM   #62
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Yes, I know they shift lights. And I agree it makes the car look very sporty and track oriented. My comment was that BMW is increasingly pushing this sort of accessories while they are also making their cars less engaging, which is ironic. Read Chris Harris's review on the 435i, where he found the car to be good but pretty boring. Apparently the instruction to the journos before BMW unleashed them on the track was "no drifting". But you can now get the car to be covered in Alcantara, CF, and blinking lights if you have enough money.
I do agree. The last of the TRUE drivers car was the E46. Some would say the 36. BMW really is just trying to keep up with the Joneses now. And that sucks for those that want a car that is connected. But when most of those you see in NEW BMWs have no clue about the car, I guess BMW is smart from a business perspective. ( I came from an E90).

I personally only went away from BMW because I was tired of the same old same interior. You check out a picture of a 2000 BMW compared to a 2011 BMW and there is zero difference. Heck from a 320i to an M3, the interior parts are interchangeable. I wanted a change of scenery.
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Old 07-21-2013, 02:23 PM   #63
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To add, I was on my phone. Did not see you are in an E90.
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Old 07-21-2013, 03:20 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by VEGAS WRX View Post
I do agree. The last of the TRUE drivers car was the E46. Some would say the 36. BMW really is just trying to keep up with the Joneses now. And that sucks for those that want a car that is connected. But when most of those you see in NEW BMWs have no clue about the car, I guess BMW is smart from a business perspective. ( I came from an E90).

I personally only went away from BMW because I was tired of the same old same interior. You check out a picture of a 2000 BMW compared to a 2011 BMW and there is zero difference. Heck from a 320i to an M3, the interior parts are interchangeable. I wanted a change of scenery.
I think the true M3 is always the E30, a race car 1st... street car 2nd.

Interior wise though, it is still essentially a 3 series, so I doubt it will ever be much different. Exclusivity is not cheap.
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Old 07-21-2013, 03:59 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by VEGAS WRX View Post
To add, I was on my phone. Did not see you are in an E90.
Sure, no problem. I agree that in every new generation BMW has gotten more refined, and at the same time also less engaging. But the new F-series cars do seem to make bigger jumps in that direction. There is really a surprising amount of lukewarm to negative reviews about the F30, even from the former BMW cheerleading squads like C&D. While it's probably true that the E46 was a better driver's car than the E90, there simply wasn't anywhere near this amount of backlash when the E90 came out. In fact, most reviews were very positive back then.

On the other hand, it's also true that the F30 is selling like hotcakes, and most importantly its appeal to the Chinese customers must be far higher than any previous 3 series. So business-wise BMW is doing the right thing, at least in the short run. But as we can see from these over the top performance accessories, they also don't mind taking advantage of the reputation as being great driver's car to basically have it both ways: Produce much more mainstream luxury cars, and market them as driver's cars based on prior reputation. But that obviously can't work forever, and the fact that both 3 and 5 series are no longer the sharpest driving cars in their classes will eventually cost them the reputation.
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Old 07-21-2013, 05:50 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Len View Post
Sure, no problem. I agree that in every new generation BMW has gotten more refined, and at the same time also less engaging. But the new F-series cars do seem to make bigger jumps in that direction. There is really a surprising amount of lukewarm to negative reviews about the F30, even from the former BMW cheerleading squads like C&D. While it's probably true that the E46 was a better driver's car than the E90, there simply wasn't anywhere near this amount of backlash when the E90 came out. In fact, most reviews were very positive back then.

On the other hand, it's also true that the F30 is selling like hotcakes, and most importantly its appeal to the Chinese customers must be far higher than any previous 3 series. So business-wise BMW is doing the right thing, at least in the short run. But as we can see from these over the top performance accessories, they also don't mind taking advantage of the reputation as being great driver's car to basically have it both ways: Produce much more mainstream luxury cars, and market them as driver's cars based on prior reputation. But that obviously can't work forever, and the fact that both 3 and 5 series are no longer the sharpest driving cars in their classes will eventually cost them the reputation.
Which cars do you consider to be sharper driving than the 3 and 5 series BMWs?
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Old 07-21-2013, 06:00 PM   #67
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Which cars do you consider to be sharper driving than the 3 and 5 series BMWs?
I admit I haven't driven anything in the 5 series class, so I'm just going by the reviews. But it seems the consensus is that both the A6 and the GS are sharper than the 5, and for the 3 series definitely the ATS and potentially even the IS are better handlers.

Some of this is bound to be subjective, but until the Exx generation, I don't think I've seen a single review that didn't consider a BMW to be the best handlers in its class. (of premium cars, excluding the WRX/STI/Evo type cars) Now you see that everywhere. Something changed, it seems.
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Old 07-21-2013, 07:52 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by 4wdwrx View Post
I think the true M3 is always the E30, a race car 1st... street car 2nd.

Interior wise though, it is still essentially a 3 series, so I doubt it will ever be much different. Exclusivity is not cheap.
The E30 was nice because it made no compromises. Only issue with that is in todays world, if someone wants the pureness of a race car, they will not look to BMW. They will look vette or something in that price range. If they want Luxury, they will look BMW/AUDI/ETC. BMW combined both with the M3, but inevitably lost some of the feel. Still has everything else though.
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Old 07-21-2013, 07:59 PM   #69
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I admit I haven't driven anything in the 5 series class, so I'm just going by the reviews. But it seems the consensus is that both the A6 and the GS are sharper than the 5, and for the 3 series definitely the ATS and potentially even the IS are better handlers.

Some of this is bound to be subjective, but until the Exx generation, I don't think I've seen a single review that didn't consider a BMW to be the best handlers in its class. (of premium cars, excluding the WRX/STI/Evo type cars) Now you see that everywhere. Something changed, it seems.
I have owned 3, 3 series (including an E36 M3 years ago), so I am obviously biased towards BMW, but I think I am a realist. The 5 is a nice car, but has the feel and interior look of a 3. The A6 is nice interior wise, but does not have the "feel" the 5 does. The GS is MUCH more luxurious but falls far short in drive and performance.
For the 3 series, I would buy an IS350 of a 335i in a heartbeat, if the Lexus could hit the handling and "feel" mark. The Lexus looks better, interior and exterior. But is no where near the feel of the 3 series.

Where BMW finally shines above Audi and Lexus is the 6 series and up. BMW has lost touch with the luxury side of its low end models (3-5 series). They have the same dash, a/c, entertainment center that they have had for years. Where as Lexus has upgraded year after year.
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Old 07-21-2013, 08:48 PM   #70
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BMW has a lot of steering work to tweak on with its new electronic BS. Supposedly they've listened and heard how pissed the loyalists are and are trying to fix their mistake. I hope the new 2 series has fixed EPS. Hell, half the reason you used to buy a BMW was the steering and driver connection to the road (i.e. feel.)
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Old 07-21-2013, 08:54 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VEGAS WRX View Post
I have owned 3, 3 series (including an E36 M3 years ago), so I am obviously biased towards BMW, but I think I am a realist. The 5 is a nice car, but has the feel and interior look of a 3. The A6 is nice interior wise, but does not have the "feel" the 5 does. The GS is MUCH more luxurious but falls far short in drive and performance.
For the 3 series, I would buy an IS350 of a 335i in a heartbeat, if the Lexus could hit the handling and "feel" mark. The Lexus looks better, interior and exterior. But is no where near the feel of the 3 series.

Where BMW finally shines above Audi and Lexus is the 6 series and up. BMW has lost touch with the luxury side of its low end models (3-5 series). They have the same dash, a/c, entertainment center that they have had for years. Where as Lexus has upgraded year after year.
I heard the new 3 series has lost a little of its feel and the new IS might have an edge.

As for the interior, the BMW interior works, that is why they don't change it much. Same with the exterior, it is more evolutionary.

Lexus has to change a lot because it didn't work out, thus they have to try something new.

If the badges were removed. BMW will always be instantly recognizable.

Lexus not so much... That being said, I really like the new design.
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Old 07-21-2013, 09:17 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VEGAS WRX View Post
I have owned 3, 3 series (including an E36 M3 years ago), so I am obviously biased towards BMW, but I think I am a realist. The 5 is a nice car, but has the feel and interior look of a 3. The A6 is nice interior wise, but does not have the "feel" the 5 does. The GS is MUCH more luxurious but falls far short in drive and performance.
For the 3 series, I would buy an IS350 of a 335i in a heartbeat, if the Lexus could hit the handling and "feel" mark. The Lexus looks better, interior and exterior. But is no where near the feel of the 3 series.

Where BMW finally shines above Audi and Lexus is the 6 series and up. BMW has lost touch with the luxury side of its low end models (3-5 series). They have the same dash, a/c, entertainment center that they have had for years. Where as Lexus has upgraded year after year.
Are you sure you are talking about the new GS and IS? Because they are both very different beasts from the previous generation models. Many recent reviews describe both of them as having better "feel" than the BMW, if not outright performance.
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Old 07-21-2013, 10:11 PM   #73
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Are you sure you are talking about the new GS and IS? Because they are both very different beasts from the previous generation models. Many recent reviews describe both of them as having better "feel" than the BMW, if not outright performance.
I am talking about pre 2012. I have driven those GS and IS. And obviously owned the various BMWs. I have never based a single opinion off of a review, so I cannot speak for this latest GS/is. Feel is so insanely subjective. Looks however, I love the IS.
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Old 07-21-2013, 10:13 PM   #74
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I heard the new 3 series has lost a little of its feel and the new IS might have an edge.

As for the interior, the BMW interior works, that is why they don't change it much. Same with the exterior, it is more evolutionary.

Lexus has to change a lot because it didn't work out, thus they have to try something new.

If the badges were removed. BMW will always be instantly recognizable.

Lexus not so much... That being said, I really like the new design.
I do agree with you except the BMW interior. It is just so outdated. (Well was, looks like a nice change in the 4 series!!!!!)
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Old 07-21-2013, 10:57 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by VEGAS WRX View Post
I am talking about pre 2012. I have driven those GS and IS. And obviously owned the various BMWs. I have never based a single opinion off of a review, so I cannot speak for this latest GS/is. Feel is so insanely subjective. Looks however, I love the IS.
But the reviews are very consistent. The new crop of Lexus cars since Akio Toyoda took over are far sportier than older models. Just think about the GT-86, there is a clear change of direction at work. I would not assume that the new models drive anything like the old ones.
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