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Old 11-13-2012, 01:50 PM   #1
M///Scooby
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Default Cobb AP and Dealerships

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this, but I had this question. Since the Cobb AP can restore the computer to factory settings by uninstalling the AP, would the dealship know if they ECU was reflashed?

NOTE: I do not have a AP nor do I want to try to screw a dealership over. I am simply wondering if the dealership can see if the ECU was reflashed or not.
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:52 PM   #2
my05legacy
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they can tell
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:52 PM   #3
HoboBob
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Yes they can. They can't see what it was reflashed with but they can see how many times it was.
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:54 PM   #4
Apedz215
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yes an no, when you reflash to stock tune it still shows up on the dealerships tools as a number say under ecm update with no tune it would say 0,but since you loaded a tune on the ecm it would come up with a 1 or 2 for how many times its reflashed, they cant tell it was an ap but the can tell it was reflashed for sure. Every car from now until obd2 came out is the same way at every dealership.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:20 PM   #5
M///Scooby
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Okay, thanks for the reply guys. That question has been bugging me for a while.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:21 PM   #6
Davenow
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Exactly. They can see when it was last reflashed, then look it up in the system (ALL reflashes done by dealers have to go into the national database) and if it wasn't done by a dealer, well there ya go. Busted.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:44 PM   #7
Gallo2011
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I'm surprised to see someone who's been a member here for 10 years ask this question and not be called out for not searching first.

But I'm just a newbie. What do I know?

Good job spoon feeding an OG?
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:47 PM   #8
Barnold
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So this is the census as its always been. I was talking to a friend who works at Subaru here in town, he said Cobbs claim of when turning back to stock it also resets the numbers/dates/ whatever it is that they see bak to what it was when the factory tune was saved on the AP. at least for the 2012's.
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Old 11-13-2012, 05:41 PM   #9
Decipher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallo2011
I'm surprised to see someone who's been a member here for 10 years ask this question and not be called out for not searching first.

But I'm just a newbie. What do I know?

Good job spoon feeding an OG?
Funny how things go around here. I think people are on their best behavior lately.
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Old 11-13-2012, 06:56 PM   #10
Decipher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnold
So this is the census as its always been. I was talking to a friend who works at Subaru here in town, he said Cobbs claim of when turning back to stock it also resets the numbers/dates/ whatever it is that they see bak to what it was when the factory tune was saved on the AP. at least for the 2012's.
The stock map does revert but anyone here who works at a dealership says they can see, through a counter, if the ECU has been altered. After all the speculation, I'm inclined to believe the guys who work with the equipment and know best. Besides, the ONLY reason to revert back to stock prior to going in is if you are trying to hide something. That's dishonest and shouldn't be done anyways.
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Old 11-13-2012, 08:38 PM   #11
nightdown fox
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Directly from Christian @ Cobb, and verified on my own car by a friend/ Scooby dealership tech:

TL;DR version: Subaru looks for matching CID and CVN numbers to verify ECU tampering. When you uninstall the AP, it reflashes the original CID/CVN numbers to the ECU. Subaru tech in Maryland verified after I flashed and uninstalled that he couldn't tell the car had been flashed. They look more for other modifications, but my only "mod" is the Cobb Stage 1 tune to get rid of the stock map issues. YMMV.

----

*Background:*
Since 2002, Subaru ECU's with OBD2 have the ability to report their CID
values. In 2005, Subaru added CVN and VIN reporting as well. What does
this all mean?

*CID stands for Calibration Identification Number. *
The CID is basically the software version number for the software and
calibration data stored on the ECU. We've basically referred to this by
using the ECU part number for simplicity. For example, a 2002 WRX with
an ECU part number 22611AF424 we've referred to as "AF424". This is
also what we've called the "ECU Identifier" in our Map Manager
software. In reality, the actual CID value does not match in any way
the part number displayed on the case. We simply use the part numbers
as its easier for the end user. Any OBD-II scanner should have the
ability to poll the ECU for this value, as well as the Subaru Select
Monitor II and the newest Subaru Select Monitor III. When the
AccessPORT is installed, or uninstalled, the CID reported is always a
valid Subaru version number for that vehicle.

*CVN stands for Calibration Verification Number. *
The CVN is basically a "check sum" of the data stored on the ECU. This
is used to determine if the data on the ECU has been corrupted or
changed. If someone is to change the data, like we do when the
AccessPORT is installed, the reported CVN will be different than
normal. Any OBD-II Scanner can return the CVN from an ECU that supports
this function. The Subaru Select Monitor II and III can also read this
data. The big difference between the SSM II and III now is the reported
ability for the SSM III to tell the technician if the CVN is valid for
the CID or not. Basically, does the Check Sum value match what it
should be for that version of ECU software. Remember, the CVN will
change with each software revision. If a technician were to check for
this manually, like they would when using the SSM II or any OBD-II
scanner, they would have to know what the CVN should be for each given
software revision (CID) for each vehicle. That represents around 200+
possible combinations for Subarus sold in the USA since 2002. Not very
likely to be memorized, but it is possible the SSM III could store this
data for the technician and check automatically. That's not proven,
just a known possibility given readily available technology.
When the AccessPORT is installed, it changes the CVN so it no longer
matches the valid value for the CID. This is required because we are
altering data in the ECU. If the CVN is not correct for the new data,
the ECU will fail its internal check and not run because it thinks it
data is bad. So, we are forced to alter the CVN if we want the ECU to
run with the new data. That means we're not changing the CVN for the
sake of changing it, we have to in order for the ECU to operate.
When the AccessPORT is uninstalled (Reverted to stock), the CVN
_*matches*_ the CID
.

*VIN stands for Vehicle Identification Number.
*The VIN is a unique number given to each vehicle sold. This data is
not currently stored on the ECU, and it not something we alter or change
in any way. This was added by Subaru on 2005 models. If you change the
ECU in these cars to another vehicle, it will not alter the VIN.

*Subaru Select Monitor III
*The new Subaru Select Monitor (III/3/Three) is a PC based system just
released in the past few months to dealers only. We have had dealers
testing the new SSM-III on vehicles with AccessPORTs installed and there
is no compatibility issues. Normal diagnosis, etc can be performed. However, due to the fact that the new SSM-III is software based, it will
be easy and quite plausible for Subaru to change its function in the
field as necessary. Thus, its functionality will always be evolving.

If a current or potential AccessPORT user is concerned about their
vehicle's compatibility with the new SSM-III, it is advised they Revert
To Stock before any dealer visits. In this instance, all ECU data will
be stock and there should never be any compatibility issues, current or
future.

The new SSM-III also gives the dealership the ability to reprogram the
ECUs at will. In the event this is done to perform an update and the
customer has not uninstalled their AccessPORT, the special "key" stored
on the ECU that lets their particular AccessPORT work on their ECU will
be erased by the SSM-III reflash. In this event, the AccessPORT will no
longer work with their ECU or any other ECU until returned for service.

Finally, there is no evidence that Subaru ECUs or tools have the ability
to determine how many reflashes of the ECU have occurred. There is no
known counter mechanism employed, nor any evidence that such a system
sits in-line with the ECU to capture this data. The reflash process is
very sensitive already, it would seem a recipe for disaster to try and
employ additional complexity
."
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Old 11-13-2012, 09:22 PM   #12
JSchell1309
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Default

Please Search
^Click

This is brought up every month. Just becomes an argument.

Thread 1 - Locked

Thread 2

Thread 3

Thread 4

Thread 5

Thread 6

Thread 7

Get the idea yet?
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Old 11-13-2012, 09:40 PM   #13
Decipher
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Member#: 262760
Join Date: Nov 2010
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Lake in the Hills, ILLnoise
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Hatch Limtd
Satin White Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightdown fox
Directly from Christian @ Cobb, and verified on my own car by a friend/ Scooby dealership tech:

TL;DR version: Subaru looks for matching CID and CVN numbers to verify ECU tampering. When you uninstall the AP, it reflashes the original CID/CVN numbers to the ECU. Subaru tech in Maryland verified after I flashed and uninstalled that he couldn't tell the car had been flashed. They look more for other modifications, but my only "mod" is the Cobb Stage 1 tune to get rid of the stock map issues. YMMV.

----

*Background:*
Since 2002, Subaru ECU's with OBD2 have the ability to report their CID
values. In 2005, Subaru added CVN and VIN reporting as well. What does
this all mean?

*CID stands for Calibration Identification Number. *
The CID is basically the software version number for the software and
calibration data stored on the ECU. We've basically referred to this by
using the ECU part number for simplicity. For example, a 2002 WRX with
an ECU part number 22611AF424 we've referred to as "AF424". This is
also what we've called the "ECU Identifier" in our Map Manager
software. In reality, the actual CID value does not match in any way
the part number displayed on the case. We simply use the part numbers
as its easier for the end user. Any OBD-II scanner should have the
ability to poll the ECU for this value, as well as the Subaru Select
Monitor II and the newest Subaru Select Monitor III. When the
AccessPORT is installed, or uninstalled, the CID reported is always a
valid Subaru version number for that vehicle.

*CVN stands for Calibration Verification Number. *
The CVN is basically a "check sum" of the data stored on the ECU. This
is used to determine if the data on the ECU has been corrupted or
changed. If someone is to change the data, like we do when the
AccessPORT is installed, the reported CVN will be different than
normal. Any OBD-II Scanner can return the CVN from an ECU that supports
this function. The Subaru Select Monitor II and III can also read this
data. The big difference between the SSM II and III now is the reported
ability for the SSM III to tell the technician if the CVN is valid for
the CID or not. Basically, does the Check Sum value match what it
should be for that version of ECU software. Remember, the CVN will
change with each software revision. If a technician were to check for
this manually, like they would when using the SSM II or any OBD-II
scanner, they would have to know what the CVN should be for each given
software revision (CID) for each vehicle. That represents around 200+
possible combinations for Subarus sold in the USA since 2002. Not very
likely to be memorized, but it is possible the SSM III could store this
data for the technician and check automatically. That's not proven,
just a known possibility given readily available technology.
When the AccessPORT is installed, it changes the CVN so it no longer
matches the valid value for the CID. This is required because we are
altering data in the ECU. If the CVN is not correct for the new data,
the ECU will fail its internal check and not run because it thinks it
data is bad. So, we are forced to alter the CVN if we want the ECU to
run with the new data. That means we're not changing the CVN for the
sake of changing it, we have to in order for the ECU to operate.
When the AccessPORT is uninstalled (Reverted to stock), the CVN
_*matches*_ the CID.

*VIN stands for Vehicle Identification Number.
*The VIN is a unique number given to each vehicle sold. This data is
not currently stored on the ECU, and it not something we alter or change
in any way. This was added by Subaru on 2005 models. If you change the
ECU in these cars to another vehicle, it will not alter the VIN.

*Subaru Select Monitor III
*The new Subaru Select Monitor (III/3/Three) is a PC based system just
released in the past few months to dealers only. We have had dealers
testing the new SSM-III on vehicles with AccessPORTs installed and there
is no compatibility issues. Normal diagnosis, etc can be performed. However, due to the fact that the new SSM-III is software based, it will
be easy and quite plausible for Subaru to change its function in the
field as necessary. Thus, its functionality will always be evolving.

If a current or potential AccessPORT user is concerned about their
vehicle's compatibility with the new SSM-III, it is advised they Revert
To Stock before any dealer visits. In this instance, all ECU data will
be stock and there should never be any compatibility issues, current or
future.

The new SSM-III also gives the dealership the ability to reprogram the
ECUs at will. In the event this is done to perform an update and the
customer has not uninstalled their AccessPORT, the special "key" stored
on the ECU that lets their particular AccessPORT work on their ECU will
be erased by the SSM-III reflash. In this event, the AccessPORT will no
longer work with their ECU or any other ECU until returned for service.

Finally, there is no evidence that Subaru ECUs or tools have the ability
to determine how many reflashes of the ECU have occurred. There is no
known counter mechanism employed, nor any evidence that such a system
sits in-line with the ECU to capture this data. The reflash process is
very sensitive already, it would seem a recipe for disaster to try and
employ additional complexity."
Damn...
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:17 PM   #14
GrumpyPitbull
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Location: Twin Cities, MN
Default

I think nightdown fox wins the award for longest and most detailed answer ever.

But yeah, what he said jives with what I had been told from subaru techs. The cobb ap cannot be detected, but open source and other methods can be.
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:29 PM   #15
BluewaterAWD
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2011

Default

They can tell.
Local dealership has informed.
Local dealership has a Protune with a Ringland failure
Local Chapter has a member whom purchased a Stage2 from the lot, ringland went and the warranty provided at purchase was declined - I had a copy of the VM sent to me where it is indicated that regardless of situation, Subaru of CANADA (So perhaps, but not likely different) were still saying stuff it.

I'm also told SoC has only warrantied 2 motors on ringland issues, denying the rest on abuse from hanging out at redline.

0.02 cents.. What's factual is unknown though. It's all hearsay. I get what Christian at Cobb is saying and he's more then likely right, just, with Subaru having the ability to see a flash of somesort on SSM3 software the probability of warranty denial grows substantially

Pay
to
Play
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:52 AM   #16
nightdown fox
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Join Date: Feb 2012
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Location: Baltimore, MD
Vehicle:
2015 STI LE
WRB on Gold!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BluewaterAWD
They can tell.
Local dealership has informed.
Local dealership has a Protune with a Ringland failure
Local Chapter has a member whom purchased a Stage2 from the lot, ringland went and the warranty provided at purchase was declined - I had a copy of the VM sent to me where it is indicated that regardless of situation, Subaru of CANADA (So perhaps, but not likely different) were still saying stuff it.

I'm also told SoC has only warrantied 2 motors on ringland issues, denying the rest on abuse from hanging out at redline.

0.02 cents.. What's factual is unknown though. It's all hearsay. I get what Christian at Cobb is saying and he's more then likely right, just, with Subaru having the ability to see a flash of somesort on SSM3 software the probability of warranty denial grows substantially

Pay
to
Play
Pay to Play wins the debate at the end of the day, but the SSM3 cannot tell a flash has occurred if the CVN/CIN matches -- that's the "check". The Protune probably had other mods done that even if returned to stock still remained obvious, and the Stage2 was obviously modded from the lot. But for the rare guy (me) whose only non-Subaru-installed mod is a Cobb OTS reflash, the techs cannot see that I flashed if I revert back to stock.

But it really doesn't matter at the end of the day... you're right -- always remember pay-to-play, and YMMV, so stay informed and be prepared to accept the consequences for your actions.

Last edited by nightdown fox; 11-14-2012 at 07:07 AM.
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:05 AM   #17
nightdown fox
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Baltimore, MD
Vehicle:
2015 STI LE
WRB on Gold!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrumpyPitbull
I think nightdown fox wins the award for longest and most detailed answer ever.

But yeah, what he said jives with what I had been told from subaru techs. The cobb ap cannot be detected, but open source and other methods can be.
Haha, thanks... And real quick, I'm a Scoobie Newbie but not a newbie to the turbo'd car scene, so I do extensive homework before modding... I'm no Opensource expert, but a tuner showed me that you can manually read the original CIN/CVN combo from the stock map before flashing and flash it back later if you need to go back to stock... But it's a manual step, not automatic like the AP.
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