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Old 11-15-2012, 10:58 PM   #1
Purpose_Built
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Default Knock Knock. Whos looking at my timing map? Need opinions

My car is suffering from random moments of knock and its starting to piss me off. Not sure if its my valvetrain or pistons causing this because my head is upgraded and a little on the loose side. I started pulling timing in certain areas because of knock and it made it worse so i returned it to its original settings.

None of the knock is up top. Its all down low in vac or right before the transition into positive pressure with lite throttle. The ecu only registers the low knock in LearningView but it doesn't change the IAM.

I also think i've suck my intake tube shut on more than one occasion above 15

03 wrx

2.5 hybrid built yada yada
Carberry SD
18 and 21 psi
8cm td06h/60-1 2.4 inch compressor housing
approx cr<8.9:1
octane is 93
Ported everthing
tgv deletes etc.
No cat, turbo back
All supporting mods

Open loop only

I'm eager to learn and am getting pretty good at being wrong so please chime in.

(remember what psi absolute is before you make a duh you run 40psi comment)
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Last edited by Purpose_Built; 11-15-2012 at 11:07 PM.
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:50 PM   #2
OC_Nooby
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If I where you I'd spend some time and rework your timing map. Make it easy on the eye and visualize what the car would be doing.

Figure out where you have the peak load and build the timing map around that. Example 14 degrees at peak and goes to 19 degrees at redline.

You should also have a nice fuelling map that address all corners of said map. Maybe you are hitting a spot where its lean for that split second?

Also what is the CL/OL delays at? if they are stock values then you will be going lean into boost and you could knock.

I'm new to this and have my set of problems, so take what I say with a grain of salt.



That's my full timing map with zero across the board for timing advance except on the lower bottom left corner (did this not to get any problems with some mystery counters etc). I don't have my knock sensor hooked up and listen via det cans.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:49 AM   #3
Purpose_Built
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My car runs only in open loop only so there is no delay. If you look at the top of my map you'll see the x axis move in increments of psi and not g/rev. I have to sit down and read about the stock ecu setup. I honestly have no idea how to work with the stock rom but the speed density one is a cakewalk to me.

How much boost are you running and on which turbo?
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:17 AM   #4
OC_Nooby
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ATP GT3076R @ 24psi on a 2.5l.

I understand your timing map is different. What I was saying was just for reference.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:26 AM   #5
OC_Nooby
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Your timing map should really be smoothed out. You have 12 degrees then it goes down to 10 then 12. Also some spots read 18 degrees from 4.8k to redline. Maybe transition it a little?

14.7 is atmospheric pressure? Does that equate to zero? 39 equates to 24.3psi? I'm not sure so I ask.

What's your fueling map look like?

Where do you hit full boost by (psi/rpm).
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:06 AM   #6
Purpose_Built
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This is it. I dont mess with the other fuel map. Can you tell where the engine starts running out of steam? Lol. I need to check my widebands sampling rate. I'll make revisions tomorrow and share the changes. Thanks for your input its really appreciated


(*Fixed* Combination of things.) It was false knock in one area and not enough timing in another. Added timing in the low load area and 60% of the knock stopped.
Then there was a rattle in my exhaust which was caused by broken hangers that made the exhaust touch the trans mount. Fixed it and that took away 30%. Now the ecu no longer tries to correct because there isn't enough knock for it to care.

I also smoothed out my timing graph, pulled timing in boost regions and increased tip in enrichment.

Last edited by Purpose_Built; 11-20-2012 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:39 AM   #7
Bamofo
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i was going to say that is the strangest timing map ever...
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:24 PM   #8
wgr73
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CAMTuning.com

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What does your timing advance map look like....do you not have one on carberry sd? I doubt you're running -1, -2, -3 degrees. Also smooth that sucker out! It's way too lumpy.

you need to post your iam advance map tho...it'll impossible to tell without that or a log. Or if you don't have one then you need to totally redo your timing map
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:37 PM   #9
Purpose_Built
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^Advice taken and noted. Thanks^


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Old 11-26-2012, 08:19 PM   #10
WRick
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Default

I want to add,

I'm running a similar setup ( ej207 with 9:1 CR )

And you need more timing down low. ( i guess you got it tuned, and that's the way it should be up top )

Carberry rom has only one timing map, ( make sure you are on the latest release 3.6.5 for knock control implementation ), and loves it SMOOTH, or else it hesitates bad. Make sure you set your initial IAM to 15 and let it rise. This is the only way I got all 3 KC modes working on mine...

AVCS ?

I learned that not enough timing down low actually caused knock in my case... I added close to 15 degrees at some places, with impressive results.

Smooth that bitch out.

screenshot coming.

edit : knock sensitivity values are different on the carberry rom. Read on it. Can you feel the car hesitate ?

edit 2 : your timing map is all over the place. It cant be smooth like this!

Last edited by WRick; 11-26-2012 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:21 PM   #11
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94 oct.

Last edited by WRick; 11-26-2012 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:57 PM   #12
Purpose_Built
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRick View Post
I want to add,

I'm running a similar setup ( ej207 with 9:1 CR )

And you need more timing down low. ( i guess you got it tuned, and that's the way it should be up top )

Carberry rom has only one timing map, ( make sure you are on the latest release 3.6.5 for knock control implementation ), and loves it SMOOTH, or else it hesitates bad. Make sure you set your initial IAM to 15 and let it rise. This is the only way I got all 3 KC modes working on mine...

AVCS ?

I learned that not enough timing down low actually caused knock in my case... I added close to 15 degrees at some places, with impressive results.

Smooth that bitch out.

screenshot coming.

edit : knock sensitivity values are different on the carberry rom. Read on it. Can you feel the car hesitate ?

edit 2 : your timing map is all over the place. It cant be smooth like this!
Ok. I'll take your advice and make some changes. It is very sensitive to knock and even with my timing pulled it corrects in certain areas 1 degree. It doesnt change the IAM but i can tell its hunting. I need to just get a proper knock detection setup but i like the safety of the stock rom.

Thank you very much. I'm looking into this right now.

Another question... Do you feel safe running that much timing?
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:21 AM   #13
lukeskywrx
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What MAF? -Speed Density!

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It is a 207, pry loves all that timing. Mine also will start to knock a bit if there is not enough timing especially down low.

did you de-shroud your heads or did you leave the sharp overhangs?
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:22 AM   #14
WRick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeskywrx View Post
It is a 207, pry loves all that timing. Mine also will start to knock a bit if there is not enough timing especially down low.

did you de-shroud your heads or did you leave the sharp overhangs?
I've had two engine failures this summer ( first was a shady tune from some dude, second the rebuild was done too tight for my use ) so I finally decided to do my own ****. If I'm breakin' it, well it will be MY FAULT. I'm still the one paying in the end...

So no, I haven't done anything to the heads besides to have them checked, and **** me, my LH head is starting to be noisy. I guess a valve guide is going on me. I'll take the engine out again this winter, but please, enlighten me on said overhangs ? Never heard of that. I have the big-port V7 heads.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:24 AM   #15
WRick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purpose_Built View Post
Ok. I'll take your advice and make some changes. It is very sensitive to knock and even with my timing pulled it corrects in certain areas 1 degree. It doesnt change the IAM but i can tell its hunting. I need to just get a proper knock detection setup but i like the safety of the stock rom.

Thank you very much. I'm looking into this right now.

Another question... Do you feel safe running that much timing?
It NEVER knocks. NEVER.

So yeah, I feel safe ! I've set the knock CEL very low, and I've seen it come on like once in two months, at VERY low loads.

What kind of KC do you get, FLKC or FBKC ?
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:39 PM   #16
lukeskywrx
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What MAF? -Speed Density!

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The 2L heads on a 2.5L cylinder leaves a sharp edge of metal exposed all around the cylinder perfect for hot-spots and detonation.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2351907
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:48 PM   #17
WRick
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kk I see, your question was intended for the OP
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Old 11-30-2012, 12:39 PM   #18
jontiver
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I have noticed that often times smoothness of the map reduces knock more than the actual timing itself. You don't want your map to look like a roller coaster. More like a grassy knoll
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