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Old 11-23-2012, 02:57 PM   #1
subbie08
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Default ATP GTX 30 OR 35r drop in turbo

This question is is for anyone using these or any large drop in turbo such as a DOM 4 or 5. My question is this are large drop in turbo's really that bad in terms of spool and top end? I know everyones say go rotated but the information saying why rotated is better is from post that are old , I'm trying to justify dropping 5 grand on a kit compared to dropping 2k for a stock located Garrett GTX drop in turbo. To the people runnig large drop in turbo's, what type of power are you making? How is the spool, I hear some people saying you will have nothing but lag. I would love to hear from people who have used a larged drop in turbo, would be even better if someone has used both set up's. To anyone who replies please give honest feedback. Writing something sucks isnt feedback. Thanks

Im sure someone will ask about my mods
Built block-forged bottom end, stage 2 cams,+1mm valves, tgv deletes,ewg,1000cc ID injectors, High flow fuel rails, 3 inch inlet,20g turbo, headers, dp etc etc
408whp on 93 pump.
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Last edited by subbie08; 11-23-2012 at 03:00 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:29 PM   #2
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Too bad no one replied to this... I have a similar question, but don't want to post up a useless thread... sort of like this one.
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:52 PM   #3
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1) check the PPB section of the forum for spool characteristics, power numbers, and dyno sheets.

2) $5k on a rotated kit is ridiculous. Also remember that you can sell a lot of what the rotated kit replaced to recoup some of the cost (intake, inlet, uppipe, downpipe). I went through this same dilemma (as do most people who end up going rotated) and actually added up what it cost to go rotated, including the sales price of the pieces I could sell, versus the cost of going big stock-location. In the end, it was about $200 more to go rotated. Considering the unending face **** that is working on a huge stock location setup versus the unobstructed glory that is working on a rotated setup, the choice is not even close. Even if it was $1000 more to go rotated, the choice is not even close. Huge stock location setups are the most horrible PITA imaginable, meanwhile rotated setups are an absolute dream to work on.
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:18 PM   #4
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I've looked in PPB and haven't found much on stock location GTX kits, just some reports on the gt35 stock location. I'd be happy with one of those I think, but I'm curious what advantages the gtx35 would have over the gt35, and if it would be worth the $200 more.

I understand the physical advantages of working on a rotated kit, and I've been pricing out stock location VS rotated set ups for a while now. Right now I'm looking at $1800 for a new ATP GT35r and $2000 for a GTX35r. I'm hoping to build a capable and powerful touring / camping car and something I can play with at the dragstrip. I'd prefer to buy new at this point, as "used" can mean "used hard" or "barely used".

The problem I personally have is that I have a Turbo back TXS exhaust I'd like to use and getting into the rotated kit creates the need to sell and replace that, which represents a pain in the ass, and a loss of some money. Aside from that I'm also skeptical of the costs of adapting a TXS style intercooler to fit a rotated set up, maybe someone can comment on that?

I also like the design of the EWG on the housing that ATP offers, allowing me to use a simpler up pipe and hopefully avoid chances of a leak developing from a busted weld or leaky flex pipe over time.

Thanks for the input BTW!
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:55 PM   #5
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It all depends on what you want out of your set up to be honest.

Here is a full test that we did on a ATP GTX3076. This turbo with a TMIC and all supporting mods is like driving a STG2 car with how easy it is to drive and how responsive it is. Just the cool thing is that it makes 120WHP+ over a stg2 car hahaha.
http://theattack.rallysportdirect.co...x3076-2011-sti

Take a look, should help you out.

35R's are great, but to get them to a point where they start being better then a 30R you really need to have a built motor to handle its full potencial. I use the saying "get the smallest turbo to meet your goals". Reason is that this will give you a a bigger power band and a large area under the curve over a bigger turbo that just makes "numbers". Yes a 35R will make more power, but only if your engine can handle that power. Not saying that a 35R is a bad turbo, its just that its quite a shift in powerband and drivability. Where in the real world they car is actually slower until you are mashing the throttle and revving the motor out.

PS. These GTX turbos are amazing, driving this car on the street it can hit 27psi around 3500-3700RPM

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Old 01-23-2013, 07:09 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by MMY MSL View Post
The problem I personally have is that I have a Turbo back TXS exhaust I'd like to use and getting into the rotated kit creates the need to sell and replace that, which represents a pain in the ass, and a loss of some money. Aside from that I'm also skeptical of the costs of adapting a TXS style intercooler to fit a rotated set up, maybe someone can comment on that?
Why not get the TXS rotated kit then? It will work with both your exhaust and FMIC and only costs about $2300 including the turbo, uppipe, downpipe, intake, and oil/coolant lines. Admittedly the uppipe it uses sucks, as do the coolant lines, but those can be swapped out relatively cheaply when you consider that you'll be able to sell your current intake, inlet, uppipe, downpipe, and turbo.
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:22 AM   #7
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A full race turbo kit is 3000 minus turbo. P&l kit is 3500 with turbo. 5000? Where? Rotated is always the way to go you can get a turbo tailored exactly to your needs. Stock frame is only good if you have t pass visual inspection
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:14 AM   #8
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" Just the cool thing is that it makes 120WHP+ over a stg2 car hahaha."

You graph in the link shows stg2 268whp and gtx turbo at 335whp that only 67whp gain. Half. Maybe if you compare 91 oct vf48 to the 104 oct gtx... cause that's fair
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:30 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Inv1sion View Post
" Just the cool thing is that it makes 120WHP+ over a stg2 car hahaha."

You graph in the link shows stg2 268whp and gtx turbo at 335whp that only 67whp gain. Half. Maybe if you compare 91 oct vf48 to the 104 oct gtx... cause that's fair
We are located in SLC Utah, where the air density (12.2-12.7 PSI vs sea level f 14.7) and our 91 octane fuel (+10% E added) are a bad combination for power. The numbers on our 104 octane fuel is equivalent to what our customers see at sea level on 93 octane. Yes the dyno numbers are corrected, but it simply comes down you cant "correct" air density and the effects that it has on the turbo's efficiency and the efficiency of the motor. The proof is simple to see, our stg2 numbers are in the low 260's :-/

You are just looking at "peak" power, I was referring to the gains from 5000RPM plus, where the stock turbo drops on its face and this turbo keeps pumping air.

On 91 octane vs 91 St2, @ 6300 RPM the ATP GTX is pumping out well over 80WHP more then stage2.

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Old 01-24-2013, 12:27 PM   #10
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35R's are great, but to get them to a point where they start being better then a 30R you really need to have a built motor to handle its full potencial.
Before this gets installed and tuned the block is getting built for sure. I see no point in pulling the plug on my enjoyment for a costly rebuild when the stock block takes a dump later. One question to you: for a gt/gtx35r running at ~500 whp with race gas or e85 do you think darton sleeves would be worth installing during the motor build? Also besides a fuel pump and bigger injectors have you had to add any extra fuel components to the cars running gt35s? Right now I have a 255lph pump and some ID1000ccs slated to be used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the suicidal eggroll View Post
Why not get the TXS rotated kit then? It will work with both your exhaust and FMIC and only costs about $2300 including the turbo, uppipe, downpipe, intake, and oil/coolant lines. Admittedly the uppipe it uses sucks, as do the coolant lines, but those can be swapped out relatively cheaply when you consider that you'll be able to sell your current intake, inlet, uppipe, downpipe, and turbo.
http://www.importimageracing.com/tur...7-wrx-sti.html

That's the kit you're talking about right? That is enticing for the price, and seems like it would be hard to beat.

For a stock location kit I'm looking at:

GTX35 $2000
Used EWG ~200
New Dump tube ~70
New Supertrapp silencer ~70
Used upgraded up pipe ~100
=========
~2440 all told

For that TXS rotated kit:

GT35 Kit $2650
Used EWG ~200
dump tube ~70
Supertrapp silencer ~70
Some line and fittings ~50
=========
~3040 all told

It's likely that I'm forgetting something above, but IDK. But what exactly is the advantage, when I'm putting maybe 3-6000 miles a year on the car to having a rotated set up? I'm not trying to be obstinate either, I'd just like to hear the pitch on why it's worth the extra ~$600, and why it's worth stepping down to a GT35 from a GTX?

-------

Also some background on what I'm doing: I inherited an 02 Forester when my mother passed on this last year, as a tribute to her I'm trying to build a sleeper that I can take camping, or take to a drag strip. So far I've purchased a 07 STI transmission, and an 08 ej255 as well as a number of peripheral parts (hubs, axles, exhaust, BOV, brakes, subframe, steering rack, ECU, harness, etc).

I bought an HTA green about a month ago now, but I've been wondering how long it would stay on the car since I'm no longer planning on making the Forester a daily driver: I visualize using it occasionally for towing, camping, hooning, and dragging like I said. And I, like many on here get power greedy... but hey, I've got a right! This project is already about $9000, and I've got maybe another $9000 to go, I want something amazing for my money!

I've already got a Supercharged Civic Si making about 311 whp and I have a couple of motorcycles that take my breath away too... As a result I'm very interested in spending the time and the money to make this project some whole next level ish when I'm done.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:27 PM   #11
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Thanks for the responses BTW!
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:43 PM   #12
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Some thoughts for you:

Keep in mind that a GTX3076 is not a 'better GT30R' and a GTX35 is not a 'better GT35R'. Essentially, a GTX3076 flows the same as a GT35R, just with better spool up characteristics. I'd never consider a GTX35 stock location.


For the size turbo you're looking at, really you need to decide what your objective is. If you want to get to 500whp and then you will be done for good, stay stock location. But realize if you want to go bigger, you're going to need to go rotated after that anyway.

Once you do go through the pain of going rotated, from there it's easy to change turbos or wheels or housings to get where you want to be. And really, flow is not an issue anymore so it becomes more of "how much boost do you want?" and not "ok lets just see how high we can get the boost on this setup"

I literally just went through this entire Q&A process with my engine builder earlier this week. Was already at 400-425whp with a stock location 52lb/min turbo. In the end, I decided to go rotated 75lb/min.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:49 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by MMY MSL View Post
http://www.importimageracing.com/tur...7-wrx-sti.html

That's the kit you're talking about right? That is enticing for the price, and seems like it would be hard to beat.

For a stock location kit I'm looking at:

GTX35 $2000
Used EWG ~200
New Dump tube ~70
New Supertrapp silencer ~70
Used upgraded up pipe ~100
=========
~2440 all told

For that TXS rotated kit:

GT35 Kit $2650
Used EWG ~200
dump tube ~70
Supertrapp silencer ~70
Some line and fittings ~50
=========
~3040 all told

It's likely that I'm forgetting something above, but IDK. But what exactly is the advantage, when I'm putting maybe 3-6000 miles a year on the car to having a rotated set up? I'm not trying to be obstinate either, I'd just like to hear the pitch on why it's worth the extra ~$600, and why it's worth stepping down to a GT35 from a GTX?
Yes that's it, there are other sites that sell the individual pieces as well rather than one big kit. I'm not sure how the price compares, but it should be close. Also, the TXS kit includes the dump tube for the EWG.

Remember to include the parts you can sell as well. With the stock location kit you can sell your old turbo, and that's it. With the rotated kit you can sell your old turbo, turbo inlet, intake, uppipe, and downpipe. That will more than make up for the $600 initial price difference.

The advantages of the rotated setup are faster spool, more power, and it's INFINITELY easier to work on. There are no drawbacks unless you live in an area with visual inspection (and even that might be fine, my car passes visual without a problem).

I'm not sure if you've ever tried to work on a car with a big stock location turbo, but it's horrible. I had a friend with an 05 STi, dom3, and APS TMIC who needed to swap out his oil return line from the turbo. IIRC it took a good 6 hours from start to finish because there is absolutely NO room to work. I've had to replace the oil return line on my rotated setup as well, it took about 20 minutes start to finish. The junction between the turbo inlet and the turbo on a big stock location setup is a never-ending nightmare by itself.

If you want a GTX, then get a GTX. There's nothing stopping you from running whatever turbo you want with a rotated setup. You don't have to get that full kit from IIR, if you email them I'm sure you can get it without the turbo, or you can get the individual pieces here:
http://www.jscspeed.com/catalog/Suba...u_WRX_STI.html

Personally, I think a stock location GTX35 is just idiotic. It makes the power of a rotated 30R with the spool of a rotated 35R. It's just too big to fit in that location properly, too many compromises have to be made which turn it into an abomination of a turbo IMO.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:55 PM   #14
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I have a Dom 5 xtr on my 05 sti. Full boost at 4300 and there is no taper up top, turbo just pulls harder and harder the higher you rev. On my dyno graph the hp continues to climb all the way to redline.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:57 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by MMY MSL View Post
Before this gets installed and tuned the block is getting built for sure. I see no point in pulling the plug on my enjoyment for a costly rebuild when the stock block takes a dump later. One question to you: for a gt/gtx35r running at ~500 whp with race gas or e85 do you think darton sleeves would be worth installing during the motor build? Also besides a fuel pump and bigger injectors have you had to add any extra fuel components to the cars running gt35s? Right now I have a 255lph pump and some ID1000ccs slated to be used.
For E85 you will need 2000CC injectors, 1000CC's on E85 at that power level will not be enough. Neither will a single fuel pump or the stock fuel lines.
Motors running E need allot of fuel flow, so you will also want to consider doing upgrading the fuel lines from the tank to the motor and back. along with fuel rails/lines on the motor.
On Race gas you will still need to run larger then a 255 pump, but might be able to get away with something like the DW300 series.

Also no matter what fuel you are using, since you will need way more then the stock set up was ever designed for you will want a upgraded FPR.

As for turbo sizes, 35R is getting to be quite big for stock location. As others stated if you do stock location I typically say not to go more then a 30R as the 35R is a bit large. Typically on large frame Turbo's that flow over 65lbs you start seeing a good improvement by rotating them, as you are able to get a better air flow into the turbo and better out. Issues start coming up where you are getting limited to the size of the housings you have have in stock location due to physical size restrictions in that size. Also by going rotated you are able to eliminate the stock inlet, which becomes a restriction on a stock location turbo that is able to flow that much air.

The GTX series 30R compressor wheel flows more then a standard GT30, but not quite as much as a 35R. But its a good in between turbo.





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Last edited by RallySport Direct; 01-24-2013 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:48 PM   #16
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Awesome information guys, definitely appreciated. I'm glad I bumped this thread back from the dead!

The TXS rotated kit is looking more and more like the method I should use to get the project finished. I can definitely see the expandability being a huge selling point, as well as ease of access in the future. For me I'm not in a position to sell parts to recoupe money on the purchase of the kit (since I don't currently have an uppipe, inlet, etc), but I am in a position to save money on buying those items individually as they come packaged with the TXS rotated kit.

Also noted:
-Buy upgraded FPR
-Sell 255 lph pump for 300+ lph pump

I think in the interest of getting the car on the road within the next year or so I'll focus on power on pump gas. E85 I visualize being used more after my first year of ownership, since it's going to take a lot of bug chasing after the swap I'm planning is complete, and a while to just learn how to drive the damn thing (it's a stock Forester making ~170 chp).

Anyone have an opinion on sleeved block or not? Also cams and head work? Or leave it alone for now? I'm not made of money necessarily, so each time the price goes up the length of the build does too.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:11 PM   #17
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Plan out your build accordingly and build it once. If you don't got the money now, just wait out on it. To sleeve the block really depends if its gonna consistently see track days back to back. Cosworth DO NOT sleeve any of their blocks and they make 600-700WHP. Just depends on the use and the situation. In terms of valve train work, I would definitely recommend at bare minimum over size valves, cams and bowl blend (Basic PNP).
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:43 PM   #18
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There's a lot of things that y ou can do now which wont cost you any more money but will save you money down the road.

A really good example is fuel injectors. Put 2000cc injectors in your car. If you stay on pump, your IDCs will be really really low, but if you go to E85 you're gonna need the 2000s. Price is the same basically. Just don't build the fuel system for 2000cc injectors. Put a big in-tank pump in right now, and if you want to go E85 later, you'll just need more pumping capacity via inline or some other setup.

Don't need to sleeve the block provided everything is done correctly and nothing is worn out yet.

Cams are a great question. Do you want to sacrifice low end for top end? Do you want to be able to spin the motor to 8500? Do you have the $2000 to spend? Are you ok with the car idling at 1200 instead of 800? Is it ok that the car will always be louder once you do cams regardless of exhaust choices?

Big Valve heads - there's almost no downside to them, and a ton of upside. Element Tuning has a really nice head package available for you if you're looking for a shop to machine your heads.
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Old 01-24-2013, 03:23 PM   #19
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-Sell 255 lph pump for 300+ lph pump
300 won't be nearly enough either.

A walbro 255 can adequately feed 850cc injectors
A DW300 can adequately feed 1100cc injectors

For 2000cc injectors (assuming you need all 2000cc), you are going to need a BIG external pump, or multiple pumps in parallel. No single drop-in pump is going to come close.
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:00 PM   #20
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Put 2000cc injectors in your car. If you stay on pump, your IDCs will be really really low, but if you go to E85 you're gonna need the 2000s. Price is the same basically. Just don't build the fuel system for 2000cc injectors. Put a big in-tank pump in right now, and if you want to go E85 later, you'll just need more pumping capacity via inline or some other setup.

Cams are a great question. Do you want to sacrifice low end for top end? Do you want to be able to spin the motor to 8500? Do you have the $2000 to spend? Are you ok with the car idling at 1200 instead of 800? Is it ok that the car will always be louder once you do cams regardless of exhaust choices?

Big Valve heads - there's almost no downside to them, and a ton of upside. Element Tuning has a really nice head package available for you if you're looking for a shop to machine your heads.
I like the plan on the injectors and the larger in tank pump. Initially like I said I'll be running this on pump gas and just trying to get accustomed to it, and make sure the swap was a success.

Cams are tricky for me because it all sounds fine, but living with it may make me feel differently. I need to go to a COBB dyno day over at surgeline since I'm friends with a fella over there, and I know they are one of the Mecca's of Subaru's in the PNW. After seeing, hearing and listening to the stories of other owners I think I'd be able to get a better grasp on what I'm willing to put up with and what I'm not.

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Originally Posted by the suicidal eggroll View Post
300 won't be nearly enough either.

A walbro 255 can adequately feed 850cc injectors
A DW300 can adequately feed 1100cc injectors

For 2000cc injectors (assuming you need all 2000cc), you are going to need a BIG external pump, or multiple pumps in parallel. No single drop-in pump is going to come close.
Like the above response I understand I'll need a custom fuel set up for e85, and over time I will likely spend the money on building one. For now I'm just thinking about pump gas, with the potential to upgrade later.
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:16 PM   #21
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Just beware that 2000cc injectors on pump gas and stock ECU can be a nightmare to tune. Some people have managed to get it to kind of work (albeit idling with the AFR in the 12s or lower), but significantly more people have had to throw in the towel and drop to smaller injectors or go stand alone.
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:14 PM   #22
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Well I've got plenty of time to figure it out. I think this thread has given me a clearer feel for what direction I'm going to go with the turbo set-up. The TXS rotated 35r kit looks like it'd be the best choice for my power goals and simplicity of installation.

It's definitely given me some further thought on head work and the fuel system too. Like I said I was planning on using the HTA green I bought originally, so naturally I wasn't giving much consideration to more elaborate fueling needs.

I'm definitely not interested in using a standalone ECU though since I'm certain I want to be able to pass DEQ tests in Oregon, so that's another constraint for me to consider.
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Old 01-24-2013, 08:12 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by the suicidal eggroll View Post
The advantages of the rotated setup are faster spool, more power, and it's INFINITELY easier to work on.
If it's done right it shouldn't need to be worked on, or at least not for a l-o-n-g time.

On the Rotated vs OEM location I gotta say show me the money er, or, dyno plots. Same turbo (except housing obviously), same car, a true comparison. I've never bought into the rotated kits (unless the turbo is so big it physically doesn't fit) because no one has posted this info. There's a ton of rotated fans who upgraded many parts and have great results, but the same can be said for OEM location big turbos too. I just want to see a real comparison, not someone with a rotated kit telling me they are awesome If the benefits are so obvious this info should be readily available? Especially since these kits have been around for 10+ years now.

It's tough to argue with numbers so lets end the debate?
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Old 01-24-2013, 08:28 PM   #24
the suicidal eggroll
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
If it's done right it shouldn't need to be worked on, or at least not for a l-o-n-g time.
I'm not talking about the turbo itself, I'm talking about anything in the turbo, uppipe, or inlet area. Uppipe work, EWG work, EWG plumbing, inlet work, pcv work, catch can/aos installation, oil/coolant lines, etc. Ever swapped out the turbo oil/avcs feed line with a stock location turbo, much less a big stock location turbo? It took me about 30 min with my rotated turbo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
On the Rotated vs OEM location I gotta say show me the money er, or, dyno plots. Same turbo (except housing obviously), same car, a true comparison. I've never bought into the rotated kits (unless the turbo is so big it physically doesn't fit) because no one has posted this info. There's a ton of rotated fans who upgraded many parts and have great results, but the same can be said for OEM location big turbos too. I just want to see a real comparison, not someone with a rotated kit telling me they are awesome If the benefits are so obvious this info should be readily available? Especially since these kits have been around for 10+ years now.

It's tough to argue with numbers so lets end the debate?
I've never seen a back to back same-car similar-turbo comparison, but if you just look at the typical power numbers from a stock location 35r, they are nowhere near what you get from a rotated 35r. They're much closer to rotated 30r territory, with the spool of a 35r. For example, 450-500whp on a rotated 35r on pump gas is pretty common, but when's the last time you saw anywhere near that power from a stock location 35r-sized turbo (or ANY stock location turbo) on the same gas? It's been a long time since I visited PPB, but I don't ever remember seeing one. Even the big 35r-sized stock location turbos were maxing out in the low 400s on pump gas last I saw.

In the end though, I really don't see the point of the big stock location turbos. They're so expensive that you might as well just run an equivalent rotated turbo for nearly the same cost, if for no other reason than the ease of access to the entire engine bay. I'm serious, even if my setup made the EXACT same amount of power as a stock location equivalent, with the same spool characteristics, I would still pay the ~$200 more that I paid to go with the rotated setup. I just don't understand why anybody would pay $2000+ for a stock location turbo. Plus, if you decide that you want to swap turbos later on, that's another $2000. Rotated turbos are just a little over HALF of that, which makes swapping them out after-the-fact much more reasonable.

Last edited by the suicidal eggroll; 01-24-2013 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:37 AM   #25
MMY MSL
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I did find a good comparison between a rotated 35r and an ATP 35r over on EFI logic's dyno database.



You can see the rotated car has headers and a more reputable FMIC to possibly add to it's output, but it is running 23 psi vs the stock locations 22. 372/364 peak.

The stock location kit looks to be about 15-20 hp behind at any given rpm, but once again these gains aren't necessarily attributable to the turbo kit itself. Spool also seems to be virtually the same, torque peaking around 5k rpms and hp around 6k. 361/347 peak.

I am still attracted to the simple "buy a rotated kit" solution (the TXS rotated kit is a one stop solution for the intake, uppipe, dump tube, turbo etc). The ability to easily swap or access the turbo more easily in the future is also a bonus. But one of my reasons for being interested in stock location turbos in the first place was because I was hopeful I wouldn't have to futz around with it later, as KillerB mentioned. That and the ability to take the $6-800 I saved and put it into head work or headers, or something else.
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