Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Saturday April 19, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Built Motor Discussion

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-07-2013, 08:25 AM   #101
RexFTW
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 107179
Join Date: Feb 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Lake in the Hills, IL
Vehicle:
2012 S4 Black
03 WRX S400 Black

Default

Quick update - buckets got here yesterday and looks like the car will be put back together over the next month or so. Did end up having two buckets replaced so... Better now than later!
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
RexFTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 12:40 AM   #102
Paul
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 56203
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: south nj
Vehicle:
00 RSTI Coupe
Twin Scroll 2.5XTR EJ207

Default

any updates on what your doing for the scavage pump yet? Are you going use a tank for the oil to drain into after the turbo or just right into the pump?


I also plan on getting a Fobia foglight mounted kit and very excited to see how yours turns out!!
Paul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 02:06 AM   #103
RexFTW
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 107179
Join Date: Feb 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Lake in the Hills, IL
Vehicle:
2012 S4 Black
03 WRX S400 Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul View Post
any updates on what your doing for the scavage pump yet? Are you going use a tank for the oil to drain into after the turbo or just right into the pump?


I also plan on getting a Fobia foglight mounted kit and very excited to see how yours turns out!!
It is going to go into a tank before the scavenge pump. Fobia made one for me with the header
RexFTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 10:18 PM   #104
draco159
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 204121
Join Date: Feb 2009
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Houston, Tx
Vehicle:
2005 WRX Wagon
CGM

Default

Any updates on the build bud??
draco159 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 01:02 AM   #105
RexFTW
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 107179
Join Date: Feb 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Lake in the Hills, IL
Vehicle:
2012 S4 Black
03 WRX S400 Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by draco159 View Post
Any updates on the build bud??
Kinda-sorta. I was just going to wait until the car was actually running.

The engine is in the car and things are getting placed and figured out. I am told I might be able to start this week but I'm not holding my breath.

Getting a lot of the stuff out of the way now (twin injector TGVs are going in off the bat, though only one set will receive fuel it and I will have crappy stock injectors plugging the other two holes) so I don't have as many re-dos now.

I also talked to the guy I am going to have make my air/water intercooler setup and it seems like it is going to be pretty bad ass even. He wants to wait to have the engine in so he can measure exactly how much room there will be and we have a couple great ideas for placement.
RexFTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 03:48 PM   #106
Maxwell Power
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 190729
Join Date: Oct 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Marysville, WA
Default

why not just run one injector per port with regular TGV's or the TiC composite TGVs?

Injector Dynamics is releasing a 1300cc injector soon and they already have the 2200cc.
Maxwell Power is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 04:56 PM   #107
RexFTW
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 107179
Join Date: Feb 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Lake in the Hills, IL
Vehicle:
2012 S4 Black
03 WRX S400 Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
why not just run one injector per port with regular TGV's or the TiC composite TGVs?

Injector Dynamics is releasing a 1300cc injector soon and they already have the 2200cc.
I do already have 2200s en route.

The math I am doing says my injector needs are going to be a fair bit over a 2200 cc injector @ 43.5 base pressure on e98 with 35+ psi at 10k rpm. I could very well be doing the math incorrectly but I am trying to avoid cranking up the pressure and making idle/driving suffer. I know this car is going to be stupid but I am still going to drive it on the street.

Some calculators have been saying as high as 2800-2900cc for 100% injector duty cycle with my guesstimates for e98. As a result my plan was ID1000s + ID2000s so I would have plenty of fuel and if I needed to up the pressure further the smaller ID1000s would make driving and idle solid. The car isn't going to spend all of it's time on e98 and I know I could just drop the pressure on the FPR when switching fuels but I'd rather not forget switching it one time and have things go crazy.

I would rather over-build than under-build and have to re-do it. Am I off base or doing these calculations wrong?

Maybe I should just give you a ring and bounce this off you. I thought we talked about this once before.
RexFTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 04:57 PM   #108
Maxwell Power
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 190729
Join Date: Oct 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Marysville, WA
Default

I keep forgetting e98.

What were your injector plans? two sets of ...?
Maxwell Power is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 05:15 PM   #109
RexFTW
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 107179
Join Date: Feb 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Lake in the Hills, IL
Vehicle:
2012 S4 Black
03 WRX S400 Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
I keep forgetting e98.

What were your injector plans? two sets of ...?
ID1000s + ID2000s - So ~3200cc at 43.5 psi base and if I need it ~3750 at 60 psi base. For a fuel pump I am deciding between a Magnafuel 4303 and a Weldon 2345-A and have a line on a pretty sizeable (looks to be in the 3L vicinity) surge tank.
RexFTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 06:03 PM   #110
TehSubaruHasAPosse
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 202580
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The SODAK
Vehicle:
04 AW STi

Default

random question but rough estimate of the power limit with ID2000 on e98.
TehSubaruHasAPosse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2013, 11:33 AM   #111
NW2TONE
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 212509
Join Date: May 2009
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: marysville,WA
Vehicle:
unde your hood makin
your **** go faster

Default

please do this for me.. if someone asks you what injectors your running just tell them your running 3200cc injectors lol.
btw--you are def off your rocker lol
NW2TONE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2013, 12:09 PM   #112
RexFTW
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 107179
Join Date: Feb 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Lake in the Hills, IL
Vehicle:
2012 S4 Black
03 WRX S400 Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TehSubaruHasAPosse View Post
random question but rough estimate of the power limit with ID2000 on e98.
From the calculators I have been using - Using a BSFC of .9 for E98, 2200cc is like 930 crank horsepower at 100% duty cycle. If the BSFC is as low as .8 (which some places say is what E85 would be) then about 1030 crank horsepower at 100% duty cycle. Granted there is a fair margin of error in these calculations as they make no room for selection of AFR (or perhaps that works in to the BSFC number), I don't know what the BSFC would be exactly, and such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NW2TONE View Post
please do this for me.. if someone asks you what injectors your running just tell them your running 3200cc injectors lol.
btw--you are def off your rocker lol
Yeah, I should just state it by flow rate so I could just up the pressure a bit and say I'm running 4kcc injectors just to get reactions.

Yeah, I know... I don't do project cars, I do science experiments. It is going to be interesting driving a car on the street with a mount for a parachute (or maybe just leave the parachute on if I am going to a meet).

I did some more math on my fuel system and the 3L surge tank I am planning will be good for ~40 seconds of fuel while being refilled by the Walbro 400 (based on flow rate at 0 psi). If that wasn't a limitation the gas tank would be empty in almost 5 minutes flat of full throttle. That is, of course, assuming I end up needing how much fuel I predict I will (based on completely maxing out this turbo, plus a bit of nitrous on top of it).

So a 3L surge tank should be good for a standing mile with about 10-15 seconds of fuel extra for a little overhead.

Last edited by RexFTW; 03-07-2013 at 12:30 PM.
RexFTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2013, 07:52 PM   #113
RexFTW
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 107179
Join Date: Feb 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Lake in the Hills, IL
Vehicle:
2012 S4 Black
03 WRX S400 Black

Default

She lives!!! It isn't nearly as lopey as I expected.
RexFTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2013, 07:59 PM   #114
stretchedk7
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 170602
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: j-ville fl
Vehicle:
06 Wrx RWD Auto
74MM-AEM-2200's

Default

That's because your valve lash is set right . Not away a bad thing
stretchedk7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2013, 09:04 PM   #115
Maxwell Power
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 190729
Join Date: Oct 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Marysville, WA
Default

AVCS Runs the cams fully retarded at idle minimizing overlap and practically preventing any lope.
Maxwell Power is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 02:04 AM   #116
RexFTW
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 107179
Join Date: Feb 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Lake in the Hills, IL
Vehicle:
2012 S4 Black
03 WRX S400 Black

Default

Dear god this engine with HTA Green combination is absolutely freaking amazing! I just got home from my first tuning session on the car after break in. I really can't want for the man turbo to go on, pretty much just waiting on my AWIC.

20 psi at 3400 RPM in 4th gear, carries power all the way to 8500. I probably could have taken it further (RPMs included) but this is where I left it as it was getting late. I just wanted to make it fun to drive until I plop in the ID2000s and try out this Ignite Red E90 racing blend I bought the other day.

Here is an airboy of a 4th gear pull, but the road started getting a bit bumpy up top so I let off early and that dip is due to some bumps making the RPMs read a bit funny in the log (rpms going down slightly at points). It is so silly smooth it is ridiculous. This is on wastegate boost sprung to ~20 psi, which it holds all the way to 8500. It might hold further, I have not tried yet.



Hopefully I will have some time to put the car on a dyno in the next week or two and I can see what this thing will do on some good fuel and a non-bitch tune. 500 wheel HTA Green perhaps?

Last edited by RexFTW; 03-22-2013 at 02:23 AM.
RexFTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 10:18 AM   #117
Maxwell Power
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 190729
Join Date: Oct 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Marysville, WA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RexFTW View Post
Dear god this engine with HTA Green combination is absolutely freaking amazing! I just got home from my first tuning session on the car after break in. I really can't want for the man turbo to go on, pretty much just waiting on my AWIC.

20 psi at 3400 RPM in 4th gear, carries power all the way to 8500. I probably could have taken it further (RPMs included) but this is where I left it as it was getting late. I just wanted to make it fun to drive until I plop in the ID2000s and try out this Ignite Red E90 racing blend I bought the other day.

Here is an airboy of a 4th gear pull, but the road started getting a bit bumpy up top so I let off early and that dip is due to some bumps making the RPMs read a bit funny in the log (rpms going down slightly at points). It is so silly smooth it is ridiculous. This is on wastegate boost sprung to ~20 psi, which it holds all the way to 8500. It might hold further, I have not tried yet.

Hopefully I will have some time to put the car on a dyno in the next week or two and I can see what this thing will do on some good fuel and a non-bitch tune. 500 wheel HTA Green perhaps?
Soooo, you like it?


Looking forward to more boost and bigger turbo.
Maxwell Power is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 10:25 AM   #118
Flat 4 Motorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 295846
Join Date: Sep 2011
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Crook County, Illinois
Vehicle:
WRX FP HTA GT3076R
Sexual Chocolate

Default

nice, sweet numbers on the turbo. I wanna ride!

-Phil


Where you on the Elgin-Ohare Speedway?
Flat 4 Motorsport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 11:34 AM   #119
NW2TONE
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 212509
Join Date: May 2009
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: marysville,WA
Vehicle:
unde your hood makin
your **** go faster

Default

big bore ftw
NW2TONE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 11:59 AM   #120
RexFTW
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 107179
Join Date: Feb 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Lake in the Hills, IL
Vehicle:
2012 S4 Black
03 WRX S400 Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat 4 Motorsport View Post
nice, sweet numbers on the turbo. I wanna ride!

-Phil


Where you on the Elgin-Ohare Speedway?
No, I didn't use the Elgin-Ohare dyno. I used a different one.
RexFTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 01:10 PM   #121
Maxwell Power
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 190729
Join Date: Oct 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Marysville, WA
Default

Ok, so you said you got 20psi by 3400, but peak torque is at 5k rpm.. You must have very conservative timing and an interesting AVCS map. Is your tuner using a lot of advance? Are you still running the same cams we spec'd out? If so, use the advance.
Maxwell Power is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 02:18 PM   #122
RexFTW
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 107179
Join Date: Feb 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Lake in the Hills, IL
Vehicle:
2012 S4 Black
03 WRX S400 Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
Ok, so you said you got 20psi by 3400, but peak torque is at 5k rpm.. You must have very conservative timing and an interesting AVCS map. Is your tuner using a lot of advance? Are you still running the same cams we spec'd out? If so, use the advance.
Yeah, just like we spec'd out. It is extremely soft like I mentioned on the phone, 7* at peak boost on that pull. I don't have the log with me right now and I will be working on it more tonight.
RexFTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2013, 08:43 AM   #123
skep18
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 214971
Join Date: Jun 2009
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: TN
Vehicle:
2014 WRX
DGM

Default

Wow. Hella cool build and nucking futs big turbo!
skep18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2013, 12:06 AM   #124
RexFTW
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 107179
Join Date: Feb 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Lake in the Hills, IL
Vehicle:
2012 S4 Black
03 WRX S400 Black

Default

Okay, so major update and not really a happy one. I've been quiet as I wanted to know exactly what happened before a whole lot of theories and fingers got pointed. This is going to be a pretty long post so C/N's: The engine rod knocked 100 miles out of break in.

So Thursday the 22nd the car was awesome, extremely enjoyable, stupid wide power band, you know - the works. Friday I had time (at least initially) so I was going to work on the tune a bit more and push it further as I left the car silly soft.

I got a message from Dom during the day asking if he could take a look at the map and wanted to poke around as this is a major build for them, 6* and myself (how many other privately funded Subarus wouldn't be happy with 3 digit power levels ). I called him, we talked, and he found out just how soft I had the car (extremely soft). He made some changes to the map, primarily in AVCS, and told me to try the car at 9-9500. So I changed the rev limit, saved the map, finished work downtown and headed out.

I started logging my car on Dom's changes. Tried a 3rd gear on my normal tuning road, but could only take it to not quite 9k rpm due to room/speed. 9k on 07 STi gearing is booking. So I came around and tried it to 9500 rpm in 2nd gear. It felt smooth the whole way, no knock, AFRs were very solid and I had Defi's log oil pressure as I had done every pull I had ever done to date.

After the 9500 rpm pull I talked to Dom about oil pressure as it had started falling over 8800 rpm or so and we decided not to go that high in RPM again and talked about different pump options since this specific modded and ported 12mm was clearly not going to be sufficient. Maybe it needs another shim to hold closed under high RPM, maybe the porting on the pump is insufficient, who knows.

I went to give Sammy (owner of 6*) a quick ride in the car later that evening after other things I had to attend to, but the car was cold so I started it up and let it idle. We came back out to the car a while later and got ready to head out when I noticed oil pressure was about 1/2 of what it normally idled at but still at 2 bar. It was usually at 3.5-4 bar at idle (3.3-3.5 bar in traffic). Oil pressure climbed normally with revs so we just assumed that was hot idle making the oil pretty warm (my oil cooler has not yet been installed).

We start driving down the road and oil pressure was fairly stable at 6 bar, then briefly shoots up to 8 bar then dumps back to 6 bar at stable rpm and load. We knew something was funny at that moment and the light clacking of rod knock started about 15 seconds later. Pull over and tow back to the shop.

I talked to Dom over several e-mails the next day and he suspected the oil relief got sucked open and caused oil pressure problems leading to eating the bearing. It sounded logical based on what we saw and decided to ship the engine intact (minus the obvious accessories) to Dom for diagnosis. The entire time Dom was very professional, clearly taking the issue seriously, apologetic, and honest.

So we yank the engine and ship it out intact (minus flywheel taken off so we could mount it on an engine stand and take off accessories easily). Lots of very fine bearing material as one would expect.

I talked to Dom today and they had determined the root cause of the problem. We put a K1 crank in the car and K1 apparently sucks a bag o' D. #2 rod bearing AND rod were toast. The oiling to rods #2 and #3 are not even, #2 has angles and turns #3 doesn't have and the oiling holes for bearing #2 don't even match up. He estimated only 65% of the hole was actually available for use.

We also discovered that the cams we put in my engine were the ones he puts in most of these engines (as most people don't go as retarded as I am aiming) as opposed to the larger ones I wanted and we had discussed. Dom already has the appropriate ones en route so definite +1 to them for taking care of that!

So the problem is... what to do about a crank now? K1 is clearly no longer an option, from my past problems with Manley I have trouble trusting them (not to mention the new 75mm billet crank isn't supposed to be available for like a month). We talked about doing a 2.6L instead (4" bore, but 79mm crank, with +2 rods) and revving only to about 8800 instead. My gearing was already going to be ludicrously wide with 10k rpm (4th would go to 168 mph, 6th would go to 253) so the loss of RPM wouldn't be all that huge from that perspective (it could mean a shift from 4th to 5th in the 1/4 mile, but the car is more targeted towards mile racing, 1/4 mile is just for fun). It would also help spool so power band width wouldn't be as negatively impacted as it could be. On the other hand, saving shifts and time in gear are very nice with 10k rpm. I doubt I will have the aero (or maybe even balls?) to ever exceed 225 mph so it might not be so bad. I have to think on that some.

So 75mm and 10k rpm (if we can figure out oiling, a dry sump would take care of it but more than just a couple people have expressed that a well modded 12mm should be adequate for straight line), or 79mm with a tad more displacement but only 8800 rpm. Also factory crank (modded? cryo treated?) or billet? Neither K1 nor Manley seem to care to release solid products (yes I am still sore over the repeated cranks with balance problems, my thought is what problem is the new one going to have?).

If I was on the dyno or the track, running "mega-psi" and the thing exploded in a giant fireball, I could accept that as no one I personally know is aiming this high and it truly is a science experiment. I'm down. I just have trouble accepting this sort of premature "never even got to turn it up" fatality.

For what it is worth, I have 0 complaints as yet as to how Dom & crew have handled this so far. Granted, no one is perfect and the engine is still broken, but I still have faith in them. I picked them for a reason, just like 6* is the only Chicago shop I would let wrench on my cars.

What a roller coaster this build has been...

I will update more as things work out. We are going to give K1 a stern talking to, figure out a crank/engine geometry combination, and hopefully get an engine to go fight some serious cars with.
RexFTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2013, 08:13 AM   #125
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen 7.37@95
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

That sucks.... I hope you get your car up an running soon
juanmedina is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.