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Old 11-29-2012, 10:46 AM   #26
phieleven
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I saw one of these on the show room floor in 2009, A-Line.
(pretty sure I have the brochure too)
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:00 AM   #27
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The car in my OP is a 2011 STI with a non A-line 5 speed automatic. (Jdm)

I'm curious about weight difference now.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:08 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoostMasterZero View Post
I will never buy a car without an actual clutch pedal on the floor and a traditional gate-style shifter. Just me though, faster or not, without a true stick in the car it's just not the same.
Then in about 10 years you won't be buying cars. How's the bus service near you?
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:01 PM   #29
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FWIW, on my PC I have a Logitech G27 racing wheel, with BOTH paddleshifters and a 6-speed shifter, and while it is a pretty neat feeling to row through the gears while playing a racing game, constantly having to take your hand off the wheel and steer with one hand is almost distracting on a very technical track, where your constantly needing to shift.

Using the paddleshifters, I'm able to smoothly and seamlessly track a turn or tight area, without having to take my hands off the wheel.

Both sensations are rewarding, but I find myself using the paddleshifters more than the 6-speed shifter, and I wouldn't hesistate to get a paddleshifter car next.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:04 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blehhh View Post
FWIW, on my PC I have a Logitech G27 racing wheel, with BOTH paddleshifters and a 6-speed shifter, and while it is a pretty neat feeling to row through the gears while playing a racing game, constantly having to take your hand off the wheel and steer with one hand is almost distracting on a very technical track, where your constantly needing to shift. Using the paddleshifters, I'm able to smoothly and seamlessly track a turn or tight area, without having to take my hands off the wheel. Both sensations are rewarding, but I find myself using the paddleshifters more than the 6-speed shifter, and I wouldn't hesistate to get a paddleshifter car next.
Are you serious ? How often are you driving on a very technical track in your DD?

Sorry but I also have a racing wheel with paddleshifters and while it certainly makes it easier I still find the stick more rewarding.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:23 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkyle3 View Post
Are you serious ? How often are you driving on a very technical track in your DD?

Sorry but I also have a racing wheel with paddleshifters and while it certainly makes it easier I still find the stick more rewarding.
To put it simply, I like the sensation of taking a corner with both hands, while still having the exact power I need at any given second via the paddle shifters.

It's all about the turns, and if you drive aggressively in anything but a straight line, I can see where paddleshifters would be nice for even a DD.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:27 PM   #32
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If you are shifting inside corners, you're doing it wrong.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:31 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sc00by4life View Post
If you are shifting inside corners, you're doing it wrong.
In case we missed it.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:46 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sc00by4life View Post
If you are shifting inside corners, you're doing it wrong.
Oh for crying out loud... Are you kidding me?

I'm probably granny shifting too, not double-clutching like I should, right?

It's impossible to put down a decent time on a track like the 'ring while only ever shifting on a straight; the whole damn track is a string of sweepers and s's, with a few straights.

Realworld example in my WRX? Turning at a light of a large intersection, you run out of 1st gear before everything's straightened out and you HAVE TO SHIFT while still in the turn.

Or a turn with a variable radius, requiring more or less speed before you reach the apex.

Last edited by blehhh; 11-29-2012 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:51 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blehhh View Post
Oh for crying out loud... Are you kidding me? It's impossible to put down a decent time on a track like the 'ring while only ever shifting on a straight; the whole damn track is a string of turns with a few straights.

Realworld example in my WRX? Turning at a light a large intersection, you run out of 1st gear before everything's straightened out and you HAVE TO SHIFT while still in the turn.

Or a turn with a variable radius, requiring more or less speed before you reach the apex.

I'm probably granny shifting too , not double-clutching like I should, right?
Or you could.. you know.. not suck and use one hand to turn and shift quickly then put both hands on the wheel.

This is user error, not design error.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:57 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blehhh

Oh for crying out loud... Are you kidding me?

I'm probably granny shifting too, not double-clutching like I should, right?

It's impossible to put down a decent time on a track like the 'ring while only ever shifting on a straight; the whole damn track is a string of sweepers and s's, with a few straights.

Realworld example in my WRX? Turning at a light of a large intersection, you run out of 1st gear before everything's straightened out and you HAVE TO SHIFT while still in the turn.

Or a turn with a variable radius, requiring more or less speed before you reach the apex.
Notice I said inside corners. Shift on entry and exit, but never inside.

Sounds like you could benefit from high performance drivers education events. And....you know, real world high performance driving experience, not just a red light racer.
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Old 11-29-2012, 02:04 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkyle3 View Post
Or you could.. you know.. not suck and use one hand to turn and shift quickly then put both hands on the wheel.

This is user error, not design error.
You want both hands on the wheel to provide maximum control and finesse. It matters at the limit.

I'd say shifting mid-corner is not completely forbidden, but is recommended against. The problem with shifting mid-corner is it carries a risk of upsetting the car, in addition to taking a hand off the wheel. But with a good dual clutch transmission, neither of these are risks any longer. So, assuming the transmission can manage the torque delivery in a smooth, seamless manner, why should one not shift mid-corner with a dual clutch transmission?
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Old 11-29-2012, 02:07 PM   #38
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Both of you are still not understanding what I am saying...

I simply prefer the sensation of cornering when I can keep both hands on the wheel and feel the turns, rather than having to take my hand off the wheel while trying to track through a complicated series of s's or a sweepers, which you DO have to do in certain situations. You can't drive a stick shift without having to, at some point, hold the wheel off-center with one arm, as you're starting or finishing a shift.

All I'm trying to say is that I actually enjoy driving on a track like the 'ring using the paddle shifters, vs the stick shifter, and I think for even a DD some of that would carry over in certain situations.
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Old 11-29-2012, 02:20 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blehhh
Both of you are still not understanding what I am saying...

I simply prefer the sensation of cornering when I can keep both hands on the wheel and feel the turns, rather than having to take my hand off the wheel while trying to track through a complicated series of s's or a sweepers, which you DO have to do in certain situations. You can't drive a stick shift without having to, at some point, hold the wheel off-center with one arm, as you're starting or finishing a shift.

All I'm trying to say is that I actually enjoy driving on a track like the 'ring using the paddle shifters, vs the stick shifter, and I think for even a DD some of that would carry over in certain situations.
How dare you have a different opinion than me!
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Old 11-29-2012, 02:53 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sc00by4life View Post
Sounds like you could benefit from high performance drivers education events. And....you know, real world high performance driving experience, not just a red light racer.
^ This condescending BS is why so many people don't like NASIOC...
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:08 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blehhh

^ This condescending BS is why so many people don't like NASIOC...
It's not condescending at all to suggest that you could benefit from a performance driving course. You're trying to make an argument for, and making assumptions based on inexperience. If you had any real world performance driving experience you wouldn't even be talking about upsetting a cars balance based on shifting mid-corner.....because you wouldn't be shifting mid-corner in the first place.

Your only "experience" comes from a ****ing video game .

Re-read your first two sentences in your response to me, then tell me who makes nasioc look bad.

Last edited by sc00by4life; 11-29-2012 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:18 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sc00by4life View Post
If you had any real world performance driving experience you wouldn't even be talking about upsetting a cars balance based on shifting mid-corner.....because you wouldn't be shifting mid-corner in the first place.
oh, that post that I didn't make?...

Last edited by blehhh; 11-29-2012 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:30 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blehhh

Go read that post again... that post that I didn't make...
I was paraphrasing.

Quote:
I simply prefer the sensation of cornering when I can keep both hands on the wheel and feel the turns, rather than having to take my hand off the wheel while trying to track through a complicated series of s's or a sweepers
The fact still remains. If you are shifting mid corner you have other problems. Entry speed, early/late braking, turn-in angle/depth, etc. If either of these are incorrect, I could see you shifting mid-corner, but with proper technique you shouldn't have to.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:34 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sc00by4life View Post
It's not condescending at all to suggest that you could benefit from a performance driving course. You're trying to make an argument for, and making assumptions based on inexperience. If you had any real world performance driving experience you wouldn't even be talking about upsetting a cars balance based on shifting mid-corner.....because you wouldn't be shifting mid-corner in the first place.

Your only "experience" comes from a ****ing video game .

Re-read your first two sentences in your response to me, then tell me who makes nasioc look bad.
Ok.

I have lots of experience on track, in a variety of cars and at a variety of tracks. I've been doing this long enough to be a performance driving instructor, and I work with a variety of groups.

I shift mid-corner.

Before you attack me, read the rest of my post (and maybe take a look at my other post in this thread).

I generally ask my students not to shift mid-corner. Some of them I ask to not shift at all, depending on the student's skill. Once the student demonstrates they can shift smoothly and consistently, we may have a conversation about when to shift. There are times when a skilled and knowledgeable driver may choose to shift mid-corner. They may decide the risk of upsetting the car, should their shift not be perfect, is worth the benefits. There are some places where getting the throttle response I want is worth the risk of a downshift mid-corner in a decreasing radius corner. Wagon Wheel at MSR Cresson running clockwise is one of these cases. I balance the car on the limit of grip (well, really, on the edge of the reasonable slip angle) as it slows through that corner. I go from 3rd to 2nd in the Miata, there, and I have to rev-match that downshift perfectly or the back will step out. But I'm ok with that - if the back does step out, I'll roll on the throttle and collect the slide. It'll slow me down, but that's ok, I'm going into a tight section of track, anyway. I'm coming out of a long, high speed straight, and I'd rather lengthen the straight before the turn.

So... How does this relate back to blehhh and the previous conversation? Well, the assumption that "someone is shifting in a corner so they clearly don't know how to drive properly" is faulty. The confidence in making a harsh rule to NEVER shift in a corner is also misplaced. It's not something that should be verboten, but rather something that should be considered carefully, and avoided unless there's a compelling reason to accept the risk it brings.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:39 PM   #45
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Im sorry man, im curious as to what it "feels" like in the game too. I have been driving a stick out in the world for a long time and i am to the point where it comes pretty naturally. Driving in situations when a shift is required is usually before and after a turn, so that moment one hand is not on the wheel isnt that bad.

Plus there are these exercises you can do to strengthen your arms, but it requires you to leave the computer and game console.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:46 PM   #46
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Well, let me just say this... Playing with full force-feedback on the G27 for a few hours made me hate the steering in my WRX for a few days. With the whiteline steering rack bushings, the sharpness and precision are certainly there, but not the weight, the "push" and "pull" that you feel on the G27. It takes some actual force to hold the wheel in the turn, and you can feel the grip limit. It's so communicative.

When you're running a reallly tight track and constantly having to take your hand off the wheel for the shifter, that gets to be distracting, detracting from the experience, and I find the paddleshifters to be more enjoyable.

And yes, there are many, many times when you have to shift while still turning, like a tight S that turns into in a downhill sweeper, that opens up into a straight, etc. You have to grab the next gear long before you hit the straight.

Last edited by blehhh; 11-29-2012 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:18 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow
2 things Autos are good for

1. Lazy or physically impared people

2. Drag racing. Automatics shift faster (the actual gear change, assuming its set up properly) and generally make one (sometimes 2) less shifts in the 1/4 mile.
^this
I can't physically drive a manual trans anymore even though i can, & did before my wreck(wasn't driving, single car roll-over)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest
I love my 4EAT for DD. No hate on MT
Someone was sellling a JDM setup with shifters on here awhile back.
I did too

Last edited by subieguy87; 11-29-2012 at 04:24 PM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:19 PM   #48
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I love my 4EAT for DD. No hate on MT, just makes life easier and is still lots of fun. Its the twisties and handling (AWD) that make this car fun, the power helps, but if your going in a straight line there are more fun cars.

I would take paddle shifters if they were stock. Not paying for them now though. Someone was sellling a JDM setup with shifters on here awhile back.

I am waiting for when I can shift the car with my thoughts - that will be the day and its not that far off.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:23 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blehhh View Post
Well, let me just say this... Playing with full force-feedback on the G27 for a few hours made me hate the steering in my WRX for a few days. With the whiteline steering rack bushings, the sharpness and precision are certainly there, but not the weight, the "push" and "pull" that you feel on the G27. It takes some actual force to hold the wheel in the turn, and you can feel the grip limit. It's so communicative.

When you're running a reallly tight track and constantly having to take your hand off the wheel for the shifter, that gets to be distracting, detracting from the experience, and I find the paddleshifters to be more enjoyable.

And yes, there are many, many times when you have to shift while still turning, like a tight S that turns into in a downhill sweeper, that opens up into a straight, etc. You have to grab the next gear long before you hit the straight.
I still cant tell if your talking about really driving or your game setup, except when you talk about your whiteline bushings. Not trying to be a jerk, but it seems like you are blending the real with the virtual. I guess you could look into tweaking how much assist the power steering provides but that would be custom work.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:57 PM   #50
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There is no need to justify your selection of transmission/purchase to anyone. As long as you like it, it's all that matters.
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