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Old 11-29-2012, 06:04 PM   #51
sc00by4life
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Originally Posted by slowgenius View Post
I still cant tell if your talking about really driving or your game setup, except when you talk about your whiteline bushings. Not trying to be a jerk, but it seems like you are blending the real with the virtual. I guess you could look into tweaking how much assist the power steering provides but that would be custom work.
dude. how he drives in his PC game OBVIOUSLY translates into real world experience!

Contrary to the (single) person agreeing with you, I am personal friends with several driving instructors (and professional drivers) who would strongly disagree with shifting mid-corner except for a VERY VERY few select circumstances.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:06 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by sc00by4life View Post
I am personal friends with several driving instructors (and professional drivers) who would strongly disagree with shifting mid-corner except for a VERY VERY few select circumstances.
And there's the truth of it. Shifting in a corner (when near the traction limit) is something generally to be avoided. But it's not the hard-line, never do that you had originally said. The important thing is to understand why it shouldn't be done (most of the time) and how it effects the car, so you can make informed decisions about when to use such a tool.

Last edited by equiraptor; 11-29-2012 at 06:17 PM. Reason: Just adding more details. :-)
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:24 PM   #53
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Didn't take long for this to become manual vs. auto.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:29 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by slowgenius View Post
I still cant tell if your talking about really driving or your game setup, except when you talk about your whiteline bushings. Not trying to be a jerk, but it seems like you are blending the real with the virtual. I guess you could look into tweaking how much assist the power steering provides but that would be custom work.

Read my post again, but knowing that a G27 is this...

Logitech G27 Racing Wheel, Pedals & Shifter



People were crapping all over paddleshifters, saying they need that 'feeling' of shifting. We were talking about driving sensation, not speed/efficiency/safety/technic/timing/etc.

Then I said, hey FWIW, I have BOTH on my gaming setup, and I don't mind using the paddleshifters vs the stick. I was surprised by this, but I like not having to take my hand off the wheel while the track is still all twisty and the wheel is fighting me with gobs of force-feedback.

when you are RIPPING through a track like the 'Ring, there are TONS of instances where you need to shift AND have weight on the wheel, because the track is NOT straight. Like exiting a tight slow section, but the exit is a long sweeper.

I know it doesn't all translate to the real world, but I think all of you would be surprised with the experience.

Last edited by blehhh; 11-29-2012 at 07:37 PM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:26 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blehhh

Read my post again, but knowing that a G27 is this...

Logitech G27 Racing Wheel, Pedals & Shifter

People were crapping all over paddleshifters, saying they need that 'feeling' of shifting. We were talking about driving sensation, not speed/efficiency/safety/technic/timing/etc.

Then I said, hey FWIW, I have BOTH on my gaming setup, and I don't mind using the paddleshifters vs the stick. I was surprised by this, but I like not having to take my hand off the wheel while the track is still all twisty and the wheel is fighting me with gobs of force-feedback.

when you are RIPPING through a track like the 'Ring, there are TONS of instances where you need to shift AND have weight on the wheel, because the track is NOT straight. Like exiting a tight slow section, but the exit is a long sweeper.

I know it doesn't all translate to the real world, but I think all of you would be surprised with the experience.
What game do you drive in? Genuinely curious, I like driving games.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:55 PM   #56
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Then in about 10 years you won't be buying cars. How's the bus service near you?

Because in 10 years every single car will come with an automatic as the only option, lol.
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Old 11-30-2012, 12:08 AM   #57
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Because in 10 years every single car will come with an automatic as the only option, lol.
Cvt's and dct"'s along with AT's will most likely be your options.

A vast majority of people are losing touch with MT's this day in age....trends and such .
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:54 AM   #58
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Well, at least you have good reasons for getting an automatic.

Also, horde sucks. Alliance for the win. I had to come up with some sort of reply so I could post that.
*shadowstep
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Wait for rez, lather rinse repeat.

*Get bored and go kill all the NPCs in elwyn as the lowbies try to turn in quests

/y O Y O (you would see L O L )


Actually I shut my account down when kiddy kung-fu panda expansion came out. Between the disney theme and ruining PVP because of crybabies that shouldn't roll a toon on a PVP server (seriously, if you don't like open world PVP, stay on a carebear server)(talking to the crybabies, not you)
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:05 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by blehhh View Post

Read my post again, but knowing that a G27 is this...

Logitech G27 Racing Wheel, Pedals & Shifter

People were crapping all over paddleshifters, saying they need that 'feeling' of shifting. We were talking about driving sensation, not speed/efficiency/safety/technic/timing/etc.

Then I said, hey FWIW, I have BOTH on my gaming setup, and I don't mind using the paddleshifters vs the stick. I was surprised by this, but I like not having to take my hand off the wheel while the track is still all twisty and the wheel is fighting me with gobs of force-feedback.

when you are RIPPING through a track like the 'Ring, there are TONS of instances where you need to shift AND have weight on the wheel, because the track is NOT straight. Like exiting a tight slow section, but the exit is a long sweeper.

I know it doesn't all translate to the real world, but I think all of you would be surprised with the experience.
Thanks for clearing that up. I know what wheel pedal setup you were talking about, they are sort of realistic with the feedback and all.

What i was talking about was on an actual car. The "weight" or feel could be adjusted but its a mechnical change. Changing the steering rack ratio increases its speed, and suspension changes can affect its "responsiveness".

The feedback from your wheel pedal setup is really just simulating a feeling, but it is lacking the million other things that make driving a real car better.

Its like looking at a magazine of a woman or actually touching her.
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:24 AM   #60
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Having personal experience with both driving on the Nurburgring in real life and on forza as well as GT5 I can say having a manual is great. However, if you were to have a snazzy flappy paddle such as the GT-Rs or something similar it would make things crisper and smoother while losing less time.

As far as shift points and mid corner shifting he is right, sometimes it is unavoidable. However, at my current level that is not the weakness in my driving. I have yet to exceed the limits of my chassis balance or tire adhesion due to flubbing a shift here or there. I do reccommend solid use of both hands on the wheel as much as possible, I am sure no one would disagree with that, and when you do shift make it a very diliberate and positive motion and get that hand back on the wheel. I am attaching my most recent video in all of its horribleness. Sorry for the rattling sound from the GoPro, the track officials don't allow recording devices that you didn't rent from them so I had to skip the mount and wedge it into my headrest.

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Old 11-30-2012, 07:42 AM   #61
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Wow you guys are retarded. Are you really comparing real life to a video game? Just think about it for a second.
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:52 AM   #62
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Wow you guys are retarded. Are you really comparing real life to a video game? Just think about it for a second.

To be honest, I always run a few laps on forza the night before a trip to the 'Ring. Is it the same, hell no, but its damned close and will help you learn a lot of the track. 13 miles is a long bit of tarmac to remember. I prefer forza to GT5 as far as physics are concerned...GT5 just makes all cars understeer into oblivion whereas Forza it seems to behave more similar to real life.
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:16 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by sc00by4life View Post
If you are shifting inside corners, you're doing it wrong.
You are correct about that. My boss was trying to shift from 3rd to 4th in a corner in his M3 and instead dropped it into 2nd. Didn't end up too well.
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:25 AM   #64
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You are correct about that. My boss was trying to shift from 3rd to 4th in a corner in his M3 and instead dropped it into 2nd. Didn't end up too well.
That's not a horrible idea. But I was referring more to the other guy who was talking about the shifting and how it feels to actually drive one.
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:52 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by mrkyle3 View Post
What game do you drive in? Genuinely curious, I like driving games.
NFS Shift 2 & Dirt 3. Looking forward to trying Project CARS whenever it comes out...

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowgenius View Post
Thanks for clearing that up. I know what wheel pedal setup you were talking about, they are sort of realistic with the feedback and all.


What i was talking about was on an actual car. The "weight" or feel could be adjusted but its a mechnical change. Changing the steering rack ratio increases its speed, and suspension changes can affect its "responsiveness".


The feedback from your wheel pedal setup is really just simulating a feeling, but it is lacking the million other things that make driving a real car better.


Its like looking at a magazine of a woman or actually touching her.
All understood. Many people have complained about the steering in the WRX / STi being too light and uncommunicative until you get into extensive modifications like what you are suggesting.

And yes, the game can't convey the millions of other sensations all occuring at once, but in regards to shifting with paddleshifters, how can anyone argue that this is vaaastly different in a real car? And FYI, the game does convey an upset in traction if you downshift too hard / fast / etc like in a real car. Accidentally downshift when you're supposed to upshift and you can lock up the tires from the engine braking.

My desk is also a little flimsy for the setup, so that also plays into why I might like not having to take my hand off the wheel. If everything was truly locked into place, I might enjoy the stick shifter a tad bit more than I do now. It is quite fun if you're not driving competitively.

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Originally Posted by Supraru View Post
That's not a horrible idea. But I was referring more to the other guy who was talking about the shifting and how it feels to actually drive one.
Talking about paddleshifters. Again, this is like the one thing that undeniably NOT that different in real life vs a racing sim.

Point of my entire rant? Paddleshifters and stick shift both present/highlight different rewarding sensations in driving, and which one I use/find more enjoyable depends on the track, the car, my mood, my desired performance/competitiveness, etc.

Try paddleshifters if you can. The added control and sensation of never having to take your hands off the wheel is worthwhile, especially on a track that has very few straights/transitions where absolutely no steering input is required.

Last edited by blehhh; 11-30-2012 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:40 AM   #66
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NFS Shift 2 & Dirt 3. Looking forward to trying Project CARS whenever it comes out...



All understood. Many people have complained about the steering in the WRX / STi being too light and uncommunicative until you get into extensive modifications like what you are suggesting.

And yes, the game can't convey the millions of other sensations all occuring at once, but in regards to shifting with paddleshifters, how can anyone argue that this is vaaastly different in a real car? And FYI, the game does convey an upset in traction if you downshift too hard / fast / etc like in a real car. Accidentally downshift when you're supposed to upshift and you can lock up the tires from the engine braking.

My desk is also a little flimsy for the setup, so that also plays into why I might like not having to take my hand off the wheel. If everything was truly locked into place, I might enjoy the stick shifter a tad bit more than I do now. It is quite fun if you're not driving competitively.



Talking about paddleshifters. Again, this is like the one thing that undeniably NOT that different in real life vs a racing sim.

Point of my entire rant? Paddleshifters and stick shift both present/highlight different rewarding sensations in driving, and which one I use/find more enjoyable depends on the track, the car, my mood, my desired performance/competitiveness, etc.

Try paddleshifters if you can. The added control and sensation of never having to take your hands off the wheel is worthwhile, especially on a track that has very few straights/transitions where absolutely no steering input is required.
The point of the argument is the feeling between trying to drive fast with paddle shifters and a manual trans. I don't care what video game wheel you have it's not the same as driving the car with them in it hard. Comparing them that way is the dumbest thing you can do. I have driven hard with both. While I prefer the feel of a manual I'd rather a good paddle shift set up. Now stop playing video games and drive a real car.
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:00 AM   #67
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The point of the argument is the feeling between trying to drive fast with paddle shifters and a manual trans. I don't care what video game wheel you have it's not the same as driving the car with them in it hard. Comparing them that way is the dumbest thing you can do.
I disagree? I've spent countless hours driving my real car, and then racing in the game with both the paddles and the stick. Using the stick feels pretty damn close, (minus the clutch engagement). How the hell is the motion of reaching for either the stick or the paddles "different" in real life?

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Now stop playing video games and drive a real car.
2012 WRX
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Whiteline Rear Differential Inserts
Whiteline Rear Subframe Inserts
TiC Driveshaft Carrier Bushings

If you can't tell, I'm a little obsessed with driver feedback.

I live in Maine. My car can see dirt, snow and pavement inside of a single day, and I've pushed it to the limit on all of them.
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:29 AM   #68
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this is a funny thread, might as well put my two cents in

I know at VIR there is a decreasing radius turn, I pull a consistent 1.3-1.5 g since its slightly banked.

there is a circle track i frequent near by as well that is for giggles racing. we start from a stop and halfway through turn one and two i shift into 4th, this turn generates about 1.9g since its a higher bank.


have you ever been in a hard left and tried to reach for the shifter? as soon as you let go of the steering wheel your hand flies towards the passenger side, and you gotta fish for the shifter. and its not like you can glance down to see it since your head is turned left.

Im actually in the process of figuring out how i can convert to a 5eat with a hard ass valve body in it with upgraded pump, quick shifts and it has paddle shifter.

shifts faster than any person can.


.02


btw....a racing game is NOWHERE near real life and i own every forza and have a fanatec porsche wheel.
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:29 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by blehhh View Post
I disagree? I've spent countless hours driving my real car, and then racing in the game with both the paddles and the stick. Using the stick feels pretty damn close, (minus the clutch engagement). How the hell is the motion of reaching for either the stick or the paddles "different" in real life?



2012 WRX
RalliTEK Front & Rear Solid Swaybars & Endlinks
Kartboy Short Throw Shifter & Bushings
Kartboy Pitch Stop Motor Mount
Group N Engine Mounts
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Whiteline Steering Rack Bushings
Whiteline Gearbox Bushings
Whiteline Rear Differential Inserts
Whiteline Rear Subframe Inserts
TiC Driveshaft Carrier Bushings

If you can't tell, I'm a little obsessed with driver feedback.

I live in Maine. My car can see dirt, snow and pavement inside of a single day, and I've pushed it to the limit on all of them.
Holy **** you're retarded. Video game is nothing like real life.

I've been driving far longer then you have, have raced through out my life, and have played these same games. Stop being silly. It is your opinion but you are wrong. Live with it.

Not sure what posting your mods on your car proves either. If you wanna go that route my car is way faster and modded way more then yours. That makes me cool I guess.
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:41 AM   #70
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btw....a racing game is NOWHERE near real life and i own every forza and have a fanatec porsche wheel.
Thank you. It's good to hear from someone who understands how to actually drive.
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:44 AM   #71
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Holy **** you're retarded. Video game is nothing like real life.
You keep saying this as if I'm suggesting I know all about racing because i play video games, and would just as well sit at home than go to the track, but that's not what I'm saying.

Certain aspects of a racing sim do overlap, but you're not even reading what I am saying...

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Not sure what posting your mods on your car proves either. If you wanna go that route my car is way faster and modded way more then yours. That makes me cool I guess.
You told me to drive a real car. I have a real car, and I started with drivetrain mods, not a BOV and a fartcannon.

You've had 13 years to mod yours. I've had 6 months. There is much more to come.
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:48 AM   #72
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does anyone have any popcorn? this is getting good
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:23 AM   #73
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Ok n00bs, simmer down.

Here's the deal. A video game can only go so far. I am a die hard manual transmission-only driver. I've driven my own manual tranny cars since the early 70's and have thousands of track laps. Yah, video games can help in some ways, but nothing I know of gives the full sensation of being in a moving car.

However.....

A dual clutch sequential paddle shifter is simply faster than anyone ever will be shifting manually. Attend any professional race. The vast majority of racecars are paddle shifters. (I've noted this in ALMS and Grand Am over the last 2 years at Lime Rock, looking into the cars)

I have only driven a couple paddle shift cars (S4, Evo) and indeed, it was pretty quickly evident why they would be faster than a manual. No depressing the clutch, then shifting, then releasing the clutch. No lift of the throttle. Simply mash the throttle to the floor and hit the up shift. Or let the car's computer see that you're too close to rev limit and shift for you.
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:39 AM   #74
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I love my 4eat i drive manuals for my job but family situation with my mom having a tumor and stuff caused me to get a auto. so if subaru does get the auto one out for 2014, i'd be on board being a die-hard subie fan. but if not, its no big deal. both have their up's and down. like why argue? who cares? people like and buy what they want. only down side with an auto is all the ricers who cant drive stick would buy one.
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:47 AM   #75
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I still think a lot of people don't understand how much does translate over into video games these days. Of course the lateral forces and the clutch engagement don't, but with the force-feedback, the picture-perfect tracks and an insane amount of physics whirling away in the background, it's more intense than people give credit.

I'm not talking mario kart, I'm talking trying to wrestle a fully manual 800hp rwd car on Leguna Seca, without ABS, TC, SC, etc and having to use the clutch pedal and the stick shifter. Anything other than near-perfection can and will result in wheelspin, stalling the car, spinning out, locking up the brakes, etc. You can even ruin an individual tire's traction for a minute by touching the dirt or grass.

And then there's all of the tuning. Change your sway bar stiffness and the car behaves differently, etc.

Last edited by blehhh; 11-30-2012 at 11:57 AM.
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