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Old 12-02-2012, 11:55 AM   #26
ST Eye
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So sgoldste01, having had both cars, how is your fuel efficiency now compared to before with the TDI. I am assuming you drive the cars the same?
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Old 12-02-2012, 11:58 AM   #27
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I have gone to TDIforum to look at the problems of the car. The biggest issue I have is with the HPFP problem. If it fails, it appears the repair job is upwards of $6K. I was hunting around for an answer as to if the problem was addressed in the 2013MY, but I can't seem to find any definitive answer.

Funny thing, I actually stumbled across a few of your posts.
The HPFP is the same design on the 2013s, and that job costs $8k if it's not covered by warranty.

The DPF replacement is $4k to $5k. The exhaust flap valve costs $500.

VW also continues to ship cars from the factory with the intercooler that tends to freeze at 32 to 34 degrees F, even though they've designed an improved intercooler kit that helps fix the problem. The only way to get the kit installed under warranty is to wait until you have a no-start due to the intercooler and then have the car towed to the dealership. Dealerships are forbidden from installing these kits proactively. My reference in an earlier post to missing an important meeting because my TDI wouldn't start was caused by a frozen intercooler.
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Old 12-02-2012, 11:59 AM   #28
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I do. When I am on any interstate, I habitually put it in M mode and bring it up to '6'. Seems to help a bit, but not enough. Even if I drive the posted speed limit (65) it doesn't seem slow enough.
The 5 speed does not get great MPG's north of 65mph, so I don't see how that becomes the answer for high speed highway runs.
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:17 PM   #29
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So sgoldste01, having had both cars, how is your fuel efficiency now compared to before with the TDI. I am assuming you drive the cars the same?
I drive the cars the same. I was averaging 41 MPG in the TDI in the summer, and that fell to 37 MPG in the winter.

My Impreza has been averaging 32 MPG since I bought it, and it only fell to 31 MPG with the switch to winter gas and my installing snow tires. Not as much of a drop as I was expecting.

Around here, diesel fuel is typically 10% more/gallon than RUG. So that effectively closes the MPG gap by approximately 4 MPG. So after accounting for the fuel cost difference, I consider it 37 MPG in the TDI vs. 32 MPG in the Impreza (summer), and 33 MPG in the TDI vs. 31 in the Impreza (winter).

In exchange, I get AWD and a car that has been vastly more reliable in my first 8k miles of ownership (by 8k miles in the TDI, I had frayed fabric on my driver's seat, and a water pump leak).

Do I miss the TDI's torque? Yup. Do I miss it enough to buy another VW TDI? Nope. Now if Subaru would sell their boxer diesel here in the USA, that would be something I'd get excited about. Diesel torque laid down through Subaru's symmetrical AWD would be absolutely awesome.
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:34 PM   #30
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The 5 speed does not get great MPG's north of 65mph, so I don't see how that becomes the answer for high speed highway runs.
It isn't the answer to high speed highway runs. There is no answer for that other than to get a different car. This is one of the attractive things about the TDI. You don't have to drive like a grandma to get good mileage.
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:38 PM   #31
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I've always wanted a VW, I think they look nice, drive nice, and until recently had the best interiors of any mainstream affordable vehicle, but the problems you read about are too much to ignore. Every make and model has it's issues, but VWs are something else. I shopped a Jetta in 2001 and decided against it even though at the time everyone was saying that VWs were much improved. I still read the forums and found out later than I dodged a bullet. They've been saying "they're better now" for the 10 years that I've been paying attention.

I don't know why anyone with the internet would buy a VW. That company should be out of business in the US by now.
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Old 12-02-2012, 01:27 PM   #32
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In addition to the fuel cost differences, I suggest you call you insurance company and have them quote you insurance coverage on a TDI. You'll find the TDI to be more expensive to insure than the Impreza. The insurance + the fuel = not much savings when operating the TDI vs. the Impreza.

Then factor in the repair expenses over the life of the car, and you'll end up paying more to get that forty-something MPG display on the TDI's trip computer.

I'm having the exact same problem with the high-efficiency furnace I installed in my house 6 years ago. Yes, my natural gas bill is lower each month, but I'm putting everything I save into furnace repair bills.

Extreme efficiency isn't all it's cracked up to be. The added complexity required to provide the efficiency makes the product more expensive to buy, and more expensive to maintain. You're lucky if you break even in the end, and it's likely that you actually pay more when attempting to go green.

My recommendation is to turn off your AVG MPG display in your Impreza and just enjoy the car.
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Old 12-02-2012, 01:39 PM   #33
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The HPFP is the same design on the 2013s, and that job costs $8k if it's not covered by warranty.

The DPF replacement is $4k to $5k. The exhaust flap valve costs $500.
I wouldn't want that sword hanging over my head.

Quote:
The car is pure sweetness, and would put a smile on your face. Until it leaves you stranded and makes you miss a very important meeting. Or leaves you stranded out of town for three days while your dealership, the out-of-town dealership, and VWoA argue over who is going to pay for the repairs. Or while the car spends 3 weeks out of 27 months in the repair shop.
This is very important. Money is just one of several things relying on a car you can't trust will cost you.

Quote:
I don't know why anyone with the internet would buy a VW. That company should be out of business in the US by now.
Agreed. Also, their resale value is undeserved.
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Old 12-02-2012, 02:26 PM   #34
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If you wanted fuel efficiency then I would say you would have to sacrifice something.
You could get a toyota or honda as an alternative however both will come with pros and cons. You will get fuel efficiency, reliability, but then pay for it in drivability. There is also the ford cmax which could also be an option.

In regards to the mazda 3, if you get a 5spd beware the clutch tends to check out at 15k, auto trans has also had some issues, this would be the skyactiv one.
When shopping I had narrowed it down to the mazda 3, 2013 civic (which had not yet been released), and impreza. mazda 3 got knocked due to quality issues so then it was
the civic vs impreza. impreza won out especially for our applications also 2012 civic was a dud 2013 I am not very impressed with.

In terms of german vehicles I did not have a vw however I had a bmw mini cooper and can attest to the high expenses it cost to maintain this vehicle. My car had mushroomed struts, faulty o2 sensor, cvt transmission that cooked itself at 50k cost $9k, coolant leaks, tires being eaten every 20k,..... I learned my lesson then, the only saving grace was I had been given the car for free, I immediately got rid of it after the repairs and never looked back.


To accomplish your mpg you really have no choice but to bite the ugly bullet. A honda/toyota can get you the mpg you want but you must give up the performance aspect. If you truly want a change then you could take the lost and get a 2013 5spd right now the vw seems to be too much of a money pit.
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:39 PM   #35
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So I have been kicking around the idea of trading in my 2012 Impreza for a 2013 Jetta TDI. I was looking at the trade in value of my Limited and surprisingly it is worth more than what I paid for the car (long story, I originally had a Premium but it got lemoned and now I have a Limited). I know that some of the 2009+ TDI's have high pressure fuel pump (HPFP) issues. That is one of my biggest apprehensions toward making the jump. Does anyone have any experience with this car? It looks like the Jetta has some issues that are pretty common - almost like the squeaky seat problem some people encounter.

Don't get me wrong, I like my Impreza, however I feel that in order to achieve MPGs anywhere near the 36MPG on the highway, all the stars have to align. The Jetta can get even more than the EPA estimates with driving normal. The fact that my car has a high value right now, I am considering making the jump. Opinions are appreciated, although they might be biased!

I may have experience with that FUEL PUMP. My A4 blew up twice. First time needed the head replaced, and the second time took out the whole lower end. (The fuel pump cam follower fails). You better check the VW forums before you buy...
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:45 PM   #36
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I may have experience with that FUEL PUMP. My A4 blew up twice. First time needed the head replaced, and the second time took out the whole lower end. (The fuel pump cam follower fails). You better check the VW forums before you buy...
What year is/was the A4? Was it a TDI?
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Old 12-02-2012, 06:13 PM   #37
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I am not going to get a 5 speed Impreza. If I wanted one I would have bought one. My wife doesn't drive stick, so manual is a no-go. So regarding the 2013 model, is it certain that VW didn't fix any of the aforementioned issues? Thanks all for your input.
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Old 12-02-2012, 06:32 PM   #38
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if you really wanted something for the mpg, mazda 3 skyactiv. there isn't a transmission issue. it just behaves differently. it's always in too high of a gear to get good mpg but terrible for hill country. and the interior feels cheap. but more horse power and more mpg.
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Old 12-02-2012, 07:05 PM   #39
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I am not going to get a 5 speed Impreza. If I wanted one I would have bought one. My wife doesn't drive stick, so manual is a no-go. So regarding the 2013 model, is it certain that VW didn't fix any of the aforementioned issues? Thanks all for your input.
That's right. Same HPFP as the 2012s. No intercooler kits installed from factory. Same *****, different day.

Side note: The Germans have a difficult time accepting responsibility for problems. I know this because I used to work for Bosch--not their automotive division (who makes the HPFP in the VW TDIs), but rather their security products division. It is the German cultural attitude to assume that their engineering is so excellent that problems must be caused by forces beyond their control, such as customer stupidity. If their engineering is perfect, then why change the configuration of the cars coming out of the factory?
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Old 12-02-2012, 07:16 PM   #40
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if you really wanted something for the mpg, mazda 3 skyactiv. there isn't a transmission issue. it just behaves differently. it's always in too high of a gear to get good mpg but terrible for hill country. and the interior feels cheap. but more horse power and more mpg.
A google search should pull up the skyactiv transmission issues. There are a few complaints logged in nhtsa database as well, edmunds has a thread and so on. mazda has updated auto ecu a number of times still hasn't solve the auto issues, mtl also having a nice time going nuts on ppl. youtube vids show the autos nutty transmission. In terms of the clutch mazda started using cheap materials in the 3 clutch which causes premature failure. The same defect part is used on 2012 and up 3, so you will have to replace the clutch a tad early with an aftermarket part that will last longer than oem one. Add to this the rust issue. My previous mazda tranny cooked itself which prompted its replacement, damn thing died as soon as I gave it away lasted maybe 100 miles.
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Old 12-02-2012, 07:59 PM   #41
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I traded my 2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDI in for my 2013 Impreza sport premium. I was a little concerned that I would be downgrading, but I do not feel that way at all after purchasing it. With all of the known, very expensive problems with the TDI's, it feels great to not have to worry about those issues anymore. I averaged 37mpg in mixed driving with the TDI, and currently averaging 32mpg with the Impreza. Price difference between regular and diesel here in GA is .50 cents.

VW claims they have "updated" the HPFP, but I do not hold a lot of confidence given their track record. The JSW was very nice, but current diesels today are pretty elaborate with their fuel systems and exhaust systems to meet emissions standards. I like something simple and reliable, thus the trade for the Impreza. Also the DSG transmission fluid change is $400 every 40k.

I commute about 18k miles a year. Trading in the TDI for the Impreza will save me some money, and hopefully more when the car has 100k+ on the clock from costly diesel equipment failures.

Last edited by Chris793; 12-02-2012 at 08:24 PM.
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Old 12-02-2012, 08:06 PM   #42
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VW claims they have "updated" the HPFP, but I do not hold a lot of confidence given their track record.
It's good to be skeptical. On the TDI forum, people were told by the VW salespeople that the 2013 TDIs were shipping from the factory with the updated intercooler design. But a quick look under the hood (after removing the plastic engine cover) reveals that it's still the old intercooler, which is susceptible to freezing.
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Old 12-02-2012, 09:55 PM   #43
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Side note: The Germans have a difficult time accepting responsibility for problems. I know this because I used to work for Bosch--not their automotive division (who makes the HPFP in the VW TDIs), but rather their security products division. It is the German cultural attitude to assume that their engineering is so excellent that problems must be caused by forces beyond their control, such as customer stupidity. If their engineering is perfect, then why change the configuration of the cars coming out of the factory?
One of the greatest marketing campaigns in the history of marketing is the Volkswagen "German engineering" campaigns that get people to believe that VW's German engineering is actually a good thing. Not everyone buys it, but enough that VW is a viable brand in the US when it should've packed up and went back to Europe with it's eurotrash cousins Renault, Peugeot, MG, etc.

Another example of German arrogance is when the Lexus brand was established and the Germans thought it was a joke....and we all know how that turned out.
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:22 AM   #44
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German engineering is generally great. BMW and Mercedes have a great track record!

VW has had some various and serious issues. From the Passat oil sludge to the TDI imploding fuel system, there have been issues that should make any new buyer wary.
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:29 AM   #45
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German engineering is generally great. BMW and Mercedes have a great track record!
Very true, but I think most people in this discussion are more concerned with reliability down the road and cost of repairs. BMW and MBZ are pretty expensive when it comes to that, not to mention purchase price...
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Old 12-03-2012, 08:41 AM   #46
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the problem with bmw and mercs, they catch on fire,
forgot to mention my bmw mini had this issue,

http://forum.roadfly.com/threads/125...-Mini-Hear-us-!

bmw only recalled 2007 and up eventhough its the same damn steernig pump and of course only did the recall for the turbos not the non turbo cars.
http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/16/auto...call/index.htm

German engineering, yeah no thanks
A stinking 10cent fan the size of a cpu fan was what these jokers had to cool the damn pump even more it was located right at the bottom of engine bay so rain, snow, dirt, etc could just clog it up and then your pump would overheat. ironically on the turbos they had an extra heatshield so they didn't catch on fire at as a higher rate as the non turbos.
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:04 AM   #47
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I have a 2011 Jetta sitting in my driveway ROTTING away. The Jetta is a POS! DO NOT even THINK about getting a Jetta or VW for that matter. NOTHING but problems and costly repairs.

So far I am loving my Impreza.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:11 AM   #48
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@ ST Eye - if you decide to go to a VW TDI, my BIGGEST suggestion is to find a GURU close to you and meet them, talk to them, understand what they have to say about the maintenance concerns that you have found. If you are going to rely on the dealership for their "free" maintenance, you will find yourself disappointed. I have a 2005 Passat TDI that doesn't have the HPFP and icing issues but rather a whole host of other issues that are not inexpensive to remedy. However, taking in the long term cost of ownership and value that I could get if I sold it today, I am ok with the money spent and the comfort and fuel efficiency it provides. I am currently having a timing belt installed in it and I drove it over 100 miles from home to have done by a trusted and reputable person. Even though there is a VW exclusive specialty shop within 10 miles of my house and a second "guru" in a neighboring town. Why? Because I trust the mechanic that I brought it to and know without a doubt he will do the job 100% correct and address things beyond the scope of the project without a worry. 200,000 miles and I average 40 mpg's with a "hot" tune over the past 25 fill ups. 10,000 mile oil change and never added a drop between changes ~ way more than I can say after 10,000 miles of owning the IMP. I actually like the impreza though but it doesn't touch the economy of the TDI. Different animals to even compare though. If you are looking at 2013 models, I would look at the Passat forum (TDIclub) as well. 6 speed passats are exceeding the MPGs regularly (I saw you weren't interested in rowing gears). As to the $400 DSG service, my guy posts his price at $179.95 so again, I suggest if VW is a consideration, these are the things to talk about with your guru.

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Old 12-03-2012, 10:43 AM   #49
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@ ST Eye - if you decide to go to a VW TDI, my BIGGEST suggestion is to find a GURU close to you and meet them, talk to them, understand what they have to say about the maintenance concerns that you have found. If you are going to rely on the dealership for their "free" maintenance, you will find yourself disappointed.
This is fine advice for routine maintenance as well as repairs outside of warranty. But the problem with the MK6 TDIs is that they often experience major problems during their warranty period. And even outside of warranty for a major (multi-thousand dollar) repair, it can sometimes be effective to argue with the dealership and VWoA for good-will coverage outside of the warranty period.

My point is that if you want VW to pick up all or some of the tab on a major repair, you have no choice but to visit the dealership. Which leaves you stuck between a rock and a hard place. Example: My High Pressure Fuel Pump fails at 75k miles. The warranty for the HPFP ended at 60k miles. But HPFP failures on MK6 TDIs are common, it costs $8k to complete the repair, and VW sometimes covers the job outside of warranty.

In this scenario, do you go to your TDI guru and pay his bargain price of $5k to do the job? Or do you go to the dealership and try to convince them to do it for free? You've had bad experience with the dealership in the past. When you raised the issue up the flag pole and went to VWoA for support, you had bad experience with them too. But $5k is a lot of money.

Basically, you're going to be unhappy either way.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:16 AM   #50
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Dammit, I wish there was another inexpensive diesel car.
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