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Old 12-09-2012, 02:59 PM   #1
dsm_luck
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Default Fueling issues with 2012 WRX on E85

Hi,

I have a 2012 WRX that I have some fueling issues with. Car is on E85. Mods are as follows.

- Kinugawa td05 20g
- Walbro 255
- FIC 900cc injectors
- Catless DP
- knock-off tmic
- TP street tune

One day the car started showing 10% to 25% fuel trims on cruise. Current map has been on the car for almost 10k miles. Took it to a local shop and they checked fuel pressure and did a smoke test. Found out I was losing the drivers side endtank on my IC. I needed a replacement and bought an E-bay special due to Christmas coming up. Yes I know the horror stories but I could not drop $800 on a brand name one a month before Christmas. Install went smooth but when I reset ECU the issues came back. Here is what I am seeing from logging.

- very positive fuel trims at cruise that sometimes swing back negative
- popping p2097 code post cat too rich
- WOT A/F is pig rich. I have no idea how rich because its pegging the stock O2 at 11.02.
- above 5800 rpms the A/F swings lean, very lean. Thank god for E85. No knock.
- Getting misfire codes on start-up sometimes. The a/f is pegged as rich as it can go and you can smell the ethanol. It feels like so much fuel is being pushed its preventing proper combustion. No suprise on a 20 degree day here it started fine on one crank. Normal day or hot cranking it just feels like its flooding the engine.
- I believe from the fuel pressure test that I was looking at 35psi idle and 57psi with the vacuum line to the FPR unplugged.

So my question is what are the likely culprits? Does this ring a bell for any of you. I really don't understand the fuel trims going lean at cruise then pig rich under boost before going scary lean. Car drives like normal minus start ups. Idles fine. Similar Maf g/s as before. No knock. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Log below is from WOT pull.

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Old 12-09-2012, 04:18 PM   #2
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Ok, Just some random thinking on my part but the two logs I took WOT both showed the the A/F climb in the 5800+ rpm region. The other one even showed a a couple data points past 6000 rpms with 18-19 A/F. The thing is the car shouldn't be pulling hard at those levels and it should be having a major detonation event if not outright blowing the engine. If you look at the data though my timing and Maf g/s are right where they always are at that point. Granted Maf g/s is a bit lower as I dropped my boost from 22 to 18 but outside of the A/F data the car is running fantastic under boost and cruise.

Is it possible for oil to destroy the stock 02? I did have the car overfilled back 10k or so when I was still pretending to have a warranty. Even got some smoke on start-up. Fixed it. Never smoked again. Did have some oil in the IC to TB pipe when I replaced the IC (not fresh oil, just oily sludge). No oil burn outside of the incident. Would a bad 02 display the issues described above? I mean the car drives just like it always has (outside of pushing too much fuel at start). I assume I could figure this out by hooking up a wideband?

EDIT: Cruise log and WOT log added.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...UNGQzg0RDVranc

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...HJGb2REY1ZFRkE

Last edited by dsm_luck; 12-09-2012 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 12-09-2012, 05:06 PM   #3
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Buy a wideband O2 sensor. Get retuned.
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Old 12-09-2012, 05:31 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
Buy a wideband O2 sensor. Get retuned.
Just trying to understand this right but the wideband can go into the stock 02 location as long as I am catless right? Then you have to plug it into the stock harness and the ECU will use the wideband and it will give greater accuracy as well? Is there any reason that if the 02 is bad to just replace with another stock one?

Thank you.
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Old 12-09-2012, 06:30 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm_luck View Post

Just trying to understand this right but the wideband can go into the stock 02 location as long as I am catless right? Then you have to plug it into the stock harness and the ECU will use the wideband and it will give greater accuracy as well? Is there any reason that if the 02 is bad to just replace with another stock one?

Thank you.
You can use the stock location rear o2 sensor bung to run your wideband, but you can't utilize it with the stock harness to monitor it through your ECU. The stock rear o2 sensor is there as a part of the open loop/closed loop fueling system these cars have to monitor the catalytic converters effeciency. You would need a tune to delete the code that would result from removing said o2 sensor.

A wideband gauge has a kit that comes with another bung that you weld (or get welded) into your DP. You mount it in your cabin to monitor AFRs as you're driving. You can't use your stock o2 to accurately monitor real time AFRs.
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Old 12-09-2012, 06:31 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm_luck View Post
Just trying to understand this right but the wideband can go into the stock 02 location as long as I am catless right? Then you have to plug it into the stock harness and the ECU will use the wideband and it will give greater accuracy as well? Is there any reason that if the 02 is bad to just replace with another stock one?

Thank you.
you need a wideband bung in your downpipe. where are your 2 02 sensors now? they arent in your downpipe? you still need them installed i would think.
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Old 12-09-2012, 06:50 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by RoadKillDMD View Post
You can use the stock location rear o2 sensor bung to run your wideband, but you can't utilize it with the stock harness to monitor it through your ECU. The stock rear o2 sensor is there as a part of the open loop/closed loop fueling system these cars have to monitor the catalytic converters effeciency. You would need a tune to delete the code that would result from removing said o2 sensor.

A wideband gauge has a kit that comes with another bung that you weld (or get welded) into your DP. You mount it in your cabin to monitor AFRs as you're driving. You can't use your stock o2 to accurately monitor real time AFRs.
If I got a wideband and the rear 02 is going out then wouldn't this still effect my tune? I know that on the newer WRXs the rear effects closed loop. Also i am curious as to why you cant use the stock sensor to monitor is you are catless. I understand its not as accurate as a wideband but shouldn't it do the job for just monitoring?

I guess what I am getting at is that if I get a wideband and still have to replace the stock 02 that may be too much investment right now and I may just replace the stock 02.

Also I have been told it would be possible to hit 18 A/F under boost on E85 and not knock. So it may not be the 02 after all. Uhg been chasing this problem and throwing money at it for over a month now. I do need to get it hooked up to a wideband though to see what is really going on. I just wish there was a way to get a wideband without having to replace the stock 02 if its bad as well. I thought I read somewhere that you can trick the wideband into working with the stock voltage but I have no idea how that works.
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Old 12-09-2012, 07:22 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm_luck View Post
If I got a wideband and the rear 02 is going out then wouldn't this still effect my tune? I know that on the newer WRXs the rear effects closed loop. Also i am curious as to why you cant use the stock sensor to monitor is you are catless. I understand its not as accurate as a wideband but shouldn't it do the job for just monitoring?
Your rear o2 is there to monitor the cats efficiency. It won't really affect your tune, except you will get a CEL showing a rear o2 error that needs to be tuned out. The FRONT o2 sensor located in the up-pipe is what is actually reading AFRs for the cars ECU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm_luck View Post
I guess what I am getting at is that if I get a wideband and still have to replace the stock 02 that may be too much investment right now and I may just replace the stock 02.
Don't replace anything. Just ADD a wideband for monitoring purposes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm_luck View Post
Also I have been told it would be possible to hit 18 A/F under boost on E85 and not knock. So it may not be the 02 after all. Uhg been chasing this problem and throwing money at it for over a month now. I do need to get it hooked up to a wideband though to see what is really going on. I just wish there was a way to get a wideband without having to replace the stock 02 if its bad as well. I thought I read somewhere that you can trick the wideband into working with the stock voltage but I have no idea how that works.
Again, your o2 sensor is probably fine. Don't replace anything. The wideband gets its voltage from the car, but not the readings. The readings are 'real time' and can be logged with a piggyback ECU, but not the stock ECU (afaik).
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Old 12-09-2012, 07:57 PM   #9
dsm_luck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadKillDMD View Post
Your rear o2 is there to monitor the cats efficiency. It won't really affect your tune, except you will get a CEL showing a rear o2 error that needs to be tuned out. The FRONT o2 sensor located in the up-pipe is what is actually reading AFRs for the cars ECU.



Don't replace anything. Just ADD a wideband for monitoring purposes.



Again, your o2 sensor is probably fine. Don't replace anything. The wideband gets its voltage from the car, but not the readings. The readings are 'real time' and can be logged with a piggyback ECU, but not the stock ECU (afaik).
Ok so the wideband would be to just monitor. What is it about the stock narrowband that prevents that from being used to monitor like in the log i posted above? Is the A/F data collected from it incorrect? Just want to know if the A/F i logged is valid or not. Either way I would like to get a wideband.

I read that the rear 02 on newer subarus does affect closed loop A/F but I guess that was misinformation or i wasn't understanding it correctly. Sorry if this all comes across as noobish but I am trying to take a crash course in the fueling and engine managment systems of the WRX while studying for finals.

I am popping a p2097 post catalytic system too rich code. That's triggered by the rear 02 correct?

So if it is not the 02 what else in the fuel system or ECU would trigger the car to behave like in the logs above? FPR?
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:23 PM   #10
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The stock O2 sensor is a narrow band. It works fine near stoichiometric AFR's (closed loop), but is basically useless for open loop.

Who tuned you and how did they tune your car without a wideband O2 sensor? It seems like FIRST thing you should have done after correcting a major leak is get retuned.
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:44 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
The stock O2 sensor is a narrow band. It works fine near stoichiometric AFR's (closed loop), but is basically useless for open loop.

Who tuned you and how did they tune your car without a wideband O2 sensor? It seems like FIRST thing you should have done after correcting a major leak is get retuned.
It was tuned by Eric at Torqued Performance with his wideband. I had been using the stock 02 to monitor trims. The car was on this tune for 10k miles without issue. Fuel trims were always +/- 7% until one day about a month ago when I caught them creeping up on a highway cruise. Problem has persisted ever since.

I assumed that because the leak was not there prior to my first tune that I wouldn't need a retune. Ditto for swapping out TMICs. I reset the ECU and also reflashed the map.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:40 AM   #12
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#1 Wideband O2 a must(not factory WB)
#2 Have you checked for post maf boost leaks?
#3 Who tuned for the injectors?
#4 Did they disable the rear O2 sensor compensation tables?(not just the CEL)
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:11 PM   #13
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So you got your car tuned in person from Eric? If so then I would definitely send him the logs ASAP to get his input. I'm sure he can figure it out quick. He has always responded within a day when I've sent him questions or datalogs. But with the amount of mods you have and especially running E85 and doing a lot of changes to the fueling, I would definitely want a proper wideband so you can know whats going on yourself.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:05 PM   #14
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You're fairly close to me so if you need a wideband datalogger, I have one that's portable that I use for tuning.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:08 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripintaz View Post
#1 Wideband O2 a must(not factory WB)
#2 Have you checked for post maf boost leaks?
#3 Who tuned for the injectors?
#4 Did they disable the rear O2 sensor compensation tables?(not just the CEL)
1) Yes you are right. Doesn't help my situation to not be able to read A/F correctly.
2) Had a smoke test done. Replaced IC that was leaking.
3) Eric @ Torqued Performance. He knows his stuff.
4) Not sure. How is that done through RomRaider?
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:10 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by ecbmxer View Post
So you got your car tuned in person from Eric? If so then I would definitely send him the logs ASAP to get his input. I'm sure he can figure it out quick. He has always responded within a day when I've sent him questions or datalogs. But with the amount of mods you have and especially running E85 and doing a lot of changes to the fueling, I would definitely want a proper wideband so you can know whats going on yourself.
He knows about the issues and believes it to be a mechanical issue not a tuning one. Sent him logs. Wideband is the next thing I will get once this issue is all sorted.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:13 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by STIBungy View Post
You're fairly close to me so if you need a wideband datalogger, I have one that's portable that I use for tuning.
Actually that would be extremely helpful. If I can verify the actual A/F compared to what the ECU is saying the A/F is I can rule out a sensor issue and focus on fueling issues. Just let me know when you have some time. I would really appreciate it.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:53 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm_luck View Post
1) Yes you are right. Doesn't help my situation to not be able to read A/F correctly.
2) Had a smoke test done. Replaced IC that was leaking.
3) Eric @ Torqued Performance. He knows his stuff.
4) Not sure. How is that done through RomRaider?

Sounds like you have a good tuner but I only asked because if the injector latency's were off it would cause the same type of issue you are experiencing. Sounds like he's on the job though.

I'm not sure if you can disable the rear O2 completely in RomRaider like you can ATR. I thought I read somewhere that there was a definition created to do so but I'm not sure what open source software it was for. Otherwise ATR is the only one that I know of that supports disabling the rear O2 fuel trims completely. The rear O2 is highly inconsistent on non stock catted cars and has the ability to affect short term and long term fuel trims. Cobb recommends disabling the rear O2 sensor in their advanced tuner guide.
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:48 PM   #19
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Sounds like you have a good tuner but I only asked because if the injector latency's were off it would cause the same type of issue you are experiencing. Sounds like he's on the job though.

I'm not sure if you can disable the rear O2 completely in RomRaider like you can ATR. I thought I read somewhere that there was a definition created to do so but I'm not sure what open source software it was for. Otherwise ATR is the only one that I know of that supports disabling the rear O2 fuel trims completely. The rear O2 is highly inconsistent on non stock catted cars and has the ability to affect short term and long term fuel trims. Cobb recommends disabling the rear O2 sensor in their advanced tuner guide.
The thing is disabling the 02 shouldn't be an issue because the car ran for 10k on this tune without a hitch. If disabling the rear o2 was an issue it should have given me bad trims from day one right? Also my car is catless. I actually saw the moment when the trims went bad as I was driving. No noise no change in the way it drove. The fuel trims just crept way lean and stayed there. Odd to say the least.

This is what is not making sense to me.

- A/F learning shows +5 to +25% just about everywhere. So that would mean the ECU is pushing fuel to prevent a lean condition.

- Meanwhile A/F correction is usually showing low end negative numbers. 0 to -10%. Ecu pulling fuel?

- Keep popping a p2097 post catalytic system too rich. This disagrees with the A/F learning (ecu says running lean) and even the A/F correction. I will pop this code even if I don't boost.

- Car drive exactly like normal. No weird idle, no hesitation, no pops, not a hint of knock, hits nearly dead on with the Maf g/s before the issue. Only way I would know there is a problem is because I was monitoring the trims and because the cel keeps popping.


So how can this be? It contradicts.

Last edited by dsm_luck; 12-11-2012 at 06:10 PM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:29 PM   #20
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On my car, I've disabled(zero'd out) AF Learning. This keeps the short term trims from dictating the long term trims that may cause the car to go either lean or rich later down the road.

Oh, regarding using my wideband, we could shoot for this weekend if the weather isnt too bad.
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:34 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by STIBungy View Post
On my car, I've disabled(zero'd out) AF Learning. This keeps the short term trims from dictating the long term trims that may cause the car to go either lean or rich later down the road.

Oh, regarding using my wideband, we could shoot for this weekend if the weather isnt too bad.
This weekend would be great. I can come to you and am available basically the entire weekend a couple hours Saturday.

If you disable A/F learning how does the car adjust in closed loop? How did you do this?
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:32 AM   #22
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AF corrections still apply in closed loop. There's the table for af learning with a min and max range, I think. Its usually set to -15 and +15. I just 0 them out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm_luck View Post
This weekend would be great. I can come to you and am available basically the entire weekend a couple hours Saturday.

If you disable A/F learning how does the car adjust in closed loop? How did you do this?
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:33 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm_luck View Post
The thing is disabling the 02 shouldn't be an issue because the car ran for 10k on this tune without a hitch. If disabling the rear o2 was an issue it should have given me bad trims from day one right? Also my car is catless. I actually saw the moment when the trims went bad as I was driving. No noise no change in the way it drove. The fuel trims just crept way lean and stayed there. Odd to say the least.

This is what is not making sense to me.

- A/F learning shows +5 to +25% just about everywhere. So that would mean the ECU is pushing fuel to prevent a lean condition.

- Meanwhile A/F correction is usually showing low end negative numbers. 0 to -10%. Ecu pulling fuel?

- Keep popping a p2097 post catalytic system too rich. This disagrees with the A/F learning (ecu says running lean) and even the A/F correction. I will pop this code even if I don't boost.

- Car drive exactly like normal. No weird idle, no hesitation, no pops, not a hint of knock, hits nearly dead on with the Maf g/s before the issue. Only way I would know there is a problem is because I was monitoring the trims and because the cel keeps popping.


So how can this be? It contradicts.
-the Rear O2 does affect A/F corrections AND A/F learning.
-Your A/F corrections(short term or immediate fuel corrections) are affected by the "tip in" table. This may need to be adjusted to better work with your injectors. This would explain the difference in your A/F corrections(short term trims) and your A/F learning(long term trims).

Based on what you explained, there seems to be something more like a mechanical issue causing these problems. A wideband will help here.
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:38 PM   #24
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Subscribed! I hope you end up solving your problems with your A/F. Really interests me since i was planning on running E-85 on my 2012 from TP and i am not located far from you ( Cheyenne, WY).
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:15 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripintaz View Post
-the Rear O2 does affect A/F corrections AND A/F learning.
-Your A/F corrections(short term or immediate fuel corrections) are affected by the "tip in" table. This may need to be adjusted to better work with your injectors. This would explain the difference in your A/F corrections(short term trims) and your A/F learning(long term trims).

Based on what you explained, there seems to be something more like a mechanical issue causing these problems. A wideband will help here.
Yea. I am thinking it seems mechanical. The tune was spot on. I actually watched when the fueling went to crap. Something is leaking, malfunctioning or gave out.
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