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Old 12-16-2012, 11:49 PM   #1
RS-99
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Default Seeking advice on ECU tuning options for GC

First off, I hope this is the right place to post this thread. Secondly, I hate to start another thread like this but I really need advice. I've done an extensive amount of research on trying to choose the correct ECU tune and somewhat decided upon the PP6. My plan was to have a shop do the install and build a custom map for my specific modifications, considering how I DON'T want to do the install myself nor the tuning. Although when I called numerous shops asking if it's something they'd do for me, about 4 out of the 6 shops tried steering me away, mentioning it being a "bad tuning option" or a "half ass tuner". It was either COBB or PDX that mentioned the ECU possibly "learning" its way around the piggyback.

I'm not really sure what to think anymore. About 50% of what I hear on the forums is negative and the other 50% positive. All I want is for my mods to work better together or "come alive" and for this to be my final performance modification. (I don't plan on doing any self tuning, map sharing, or any adjustments once the tune is done.) What recommendations do you all suggest for my personal setup? Piggyback? Standalone? Reflash?

I'll give a list of my modifications if that helps:

Delta 1000 cams
Cobb intake
Borla reps
Stock cats (so SRS is not an option for me)
Stromung XA catback

I really appreciate everyones advice in advance!
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Old 12-17-2012, 02:47 AM   #2
cal_look_zero
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Pre. They're going to be tuning my PP6 frankenmotor and are a pretty stand up company from my small dealings with them. Bobby Wintrode (I believe he's the owner) was messaging back and forth with me for about 2 weeks helping me with various things on my engine build.

I don't know how much it would be, but you should call them and get a quote. You'll have to source your PP6 elsewhere as they don't sell them.
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:15 AM   #3
Charlie-III
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MAP or MAF?? (Yes, I should remember, but I don't)

If MAF, just run it. Tuning will get a big but the MAF is great for quite a few mods without needing a tune.

If MAP, yes, tuning can help. I don't think COBB supports early MAP/NA AccessPorts anymore. They never did a solution for the early MAF cars stating that they could correctly learn most of the power available.

When I had my other engine, I was looking at tuning solutions, the PP6 was one of them and most likely my choice. This was ~4 years ago or so.

It was a:

Built STi SB with ~10.5:1 CR+
COBB street cams
COBB P&P heads
Lightweight valvetrain
Exedy 12lb flywheel (still use)
COBB EL coated headers w/High Flow CAT (still use)
COBB CATback exhaust (still use)
Port matched intake manifold & Phenolic spacers (still use)

I even had an extra O2 bung installed for a wideband O2 sensor.
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:42 AM   #4
RS-99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cal_look_zero View Post
Pre. They're going to be tuning my PP6 frankenmotor and are a pretty stand up company from my small dealings with them. Bobby Wintrode (I believe he's the owner) was messaging back and forth with me for about 2 weeks helping me with various things on my engine build.

I don't know how much it would be, but you should call them and get a quote. You'll have to source your PP6 elsewhere as they don't sell them.
Thank you! I'll give them a call today!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie-III View Post

If MAF, just run it. Tuning will get a big but the MAF is great for quite a few mods without needing a tune.
Do you mean "just run" the car with the PP6, or "just run" the car without a tune? My car is MAF
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:47 AM   #5
Charlie-III
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS-99 View Post
Do you mean "just run" the car with the PP6, or "just run" the car without a tune? My car is MAF
Since it's a MAF, just run it, no tune, no PP6.

Way back when, COBB was looking at an AP for the late 90's 2.5L NA's. While they could gain a bit with a tune on a MAF engine, it was very little unless you went WAAAYYYYYY overboard on mechanical mods. Just letting the MAF work with the ECU gained almost as much. Thus they never did a 2.5L MAF AP.

The MAP cars were a different story & COBB supported them with the AP & tunes.

Yes, I had many long discussions with Josh & Trey @ COBB, especially after I did their full exhaust, cams & heads.
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Old 12-17-2012, 12:45 PM   #6
RS-99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie-III View Post

Since it's a MAF, just run it, no tune, no PP6.

Way back when, COBB was looking at an AP for the late 90's 2.5L NA's. While they could gain a bit with a tune on a MAF engine, it was very little unless you went WAAAYYYYYY overboard on mechanical mods. Just letting the MAF work with the ECU gained almost as much. Thus they never did a 2.5L MAF AP.

The MAP cars were a different story & COBB supported them with the AP & tunes.

Yes, I had many long discussions with Josh & Trey @ COBB, especially after I did their full exhaust, cams & heads.
Oh ok. So my supporting mods are not enough to justify a tune? When is it enough or what kind of mods would I eventually need that would require a tune for my car to help performance?
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Old 12-17-2012, 01:49 PM   #7
Patrick Olsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie-III View Post
Since it's a MAF, just run it, no tune, no PP6.

Way back when, COBB was looking at an AP for the late 90's 2.5L NA's. While they could gain a bit with a tune on a MAF engine, it was very little unless you went WAAAYYYYYY overboard on mechanical mods. Just letting the MAF work with the ECU gained almost as much. Thus they never did a 2.5L MAF AP.
I know you're just trusting what they told you, but I don't buy it. The stock tune is horribly rich and is ripe for gains with some tuning. When I had ported heads, cams, exhaust and CAI, with nothing more than an S-AFC II (which could only adjust fueling) I picked up about 7.5whp at the peak (~6% gain) by leaning it out from off the scale rich to 12.5:1. The low and mid-range wasn't that bad, but once it went open loop, the AFR just dropped like a rock.

As I recall, the PP6 gives you some ability to play with timing, too, so I would think even more gains are available (particularly in mid-range torque).
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Old 12-17-2012, 02:11 PM   #8
RS-99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen View Post
I know you're just trusting what they told you, but I don't buy it. The stock tune is horribly rich and is ripe for gains with some tuning. When I had ported heads, cams, exhaust and CAI, with nothing more than an S-AFC II (which could only adjust fueling) I picked up about 7.5whp at the peak (~6% gain) by leaning it out from off the scale rich to 12.5:1. The low and mid-range wasn't that bad, but once it went open loop, the AFR just dropped like a rock.

As I recall, the PP6 gives you some ability to play with timing, too, so I would think even more gains are available (particularly in mid-range torque).
This is almost exactly what Ken at Delta Cams told me when we got on the subject of the PP6. He mentioned having the same modifications as me (aside from him having a LW flywheel) and after he had the PP6 installed and tuned in his GC, he said the gains were very noticeable. Said its worth every penny. Although I don't think his GC was MAF based. I'm still trying to understand how MAP and MAF impreza's differ with tunes.
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Old 12-17-2012, 03:23 PM   #9
Charlie-III
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Patrick, I'm NOT saying there are no gains, just the cost/benefit ratio stated, "It's not worth the effort for a MAF based car"

On the MAP based cars, there WAS a benefit.

So, it comes down to, what price/HP are you willing to spend?

There is no "right/wrong" here, just "How much do you pay to play?"

For me, with a MAF car, was it worth the cost for a wideband, piggyback & time to gain a few HP????
No.

Would it be worth it for a MAP based car......likely.

Will you hurt a MAF based car with these mods and NO tuning??.....Not likely.

Just saying.
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:30 AM   #10
ALX4247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie-III View Post
Patrick, I'm NOT saying there are no gains, just the cost/benefit ratio stated, "It's not worth the effort for a MAF based car"

On the MAP based cars, there WAS a benefit.

So, it comes down to, what price/HP are you willing to spend?

There is no "right/wrong" here, just "How much do you pay to play?"

For me, with a MAF car, was it worth the cost for a wideband, piggyback & time to gain a few HP????
No.

Would it be worth it for a MAP based car......likely.

Will you hurt a MAF based car with these mods and NO tuning??.....Not likely.

Just saying.
I am also very interested in this.

I've installed Delta 1500/2000 hybrid grinds.
I am running a wide open airbox mod.
stock headers and exhaust and a magnaflow
(BTW it sounds like a Corvette)

It drives as though the fuel delivery system is lacking. The idle is very shaky which makes perfect sense. I am dumping so much air through the improved cam profile and wide open air box that the ratio needs to be optomized.

my current conclusion/solution is that by installing an aftermaket adjustable fuel pressure regulator I will be able to increase the fuel rail pressure.

If thats not going to work I would like to know before moving forward.
Thanks in advance -ALX

Last edited by ALX4247; 12-18-2012 at 03:32 AM. Reason: me no spell so good no more.
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:47 AM   #11
sorrowfulkiller
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Do some research and swap to a tuneable stock ecu. An 02-03 wrx will work fine for what you're looking to do, all you would need to do is some re-wiring for it and swap your crank gear for the 02-03 wrx model because the pickups are different on it. Then you can decide whether to stay with a maf sensor, or just run a rom like the carberry speed density rom.


If you're good with wiring you can do this yourself for probably under 300
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:02 PM   #12
gdoggmoney
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Not sure if I buy the MAF compensates for it. After scaling my MAF in a 07 2.5i with a bunch of gutting and bolt on type stuff, the car has more power, with no timing changes. The thing does not need to do fuel corrections as much and consequently is smoother/more powerful as it's not fudging the fuel around as constantly as it was.

If that logic was correct, maybe it does not apply to the logic in my 07 2.5i 32 bit ecu. Because the car picked up a bit of power and drivability, before touching ol/cl transitions and DBW pedal mappings.
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